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J.J. Abrams explains Leia hugging Rey in TFA

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by ArynCrinn, Mar 9, 2016.

  1. ArynCrinn

    ArynCrinn 1030th Lieutenant (Jr Mod)

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    http://www.slashfilm.com/leia-hugging-rey-jj-abrams-force-awakens/


    Interestiing comments there. He basically confirmed what some had suspected: Leia knows more about Rey than was stated in the film.

    Discuss.
     
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  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

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    Han and Finn told Leia about Rey. She's why Poe brought Finn to Leia in the first place.
    Abrams is saying she knows more about her than what we see because they all talk about this stuff in between scenes.
    same with Rey learning who Leia is ~ Chewie and/or Finn would have told her about General Organa being Han's wife.

    the only thing that Abrams says that might add another layer of depth here is that it's possible Leia has also felt the awakening (he mentions them both being Force-stong, and therefore knowing one another).
    so maybe Leia recognizes the awakening as Rey (which explains why she sends Rey to Ach-To).
     
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  3. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Gag I literally was about to post this...
    Gah I almost posted this lol

    Said Abrams---

    "That was probably one of the mistakes I made in that. My thinking at the time was that Chewbacca, despite the pain he was feeling, was focused on trying to save Finn and getting him taken care of. So I tried to have Chewbacca go off with him and focus on Rey, and then have Rey find Leia and Leia find Rey. The idea [was] that both of them being strong with the Force and never having met, would [still] know about each other — that Leia would have been told about her beyond what we saw onscreen and Rey of course would have learned about Leia. And that reunion would be a meeting and a reunion all in one, and a sort of commiseration of their mutual loss."

    SOURCE:

    http://www.comicbookmovie.com/scifi...he-made-a-mistake-with-one-particular-a131860
     
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  4. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I'm glad he admitted that as a mistake. Hopefully they'll be more careful in the next one. For me that was incredibly jarring.
    Anyway, at least that puts to bed the idea that Leia knew Rey before. I think it's also another nail in the Luke is her father theory.
    Sure, Luke may not have known he had a daughter. But that is literally the final vestige of that theory - because this essentially rules out the idea that Luke had a daughter who he believed died - because Leia would've recognised Rey.
    So literally the only way Rey can be Luke's is if he impregnated someone, probably without knowing, and she disappeared before giving birth.

    Which I don't buy.
     
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  5. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    I am sure Rey is Skywalker. Rey felt family visions at Maz Kanata's.

    Skywalker visions.
     
    #5 McDiarmid, Mar 9, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
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  6. ArynCrinn

    ArynCrinn 1030th Lieutenant (Jr Mod)

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    But what did they tell her? What did Han tell Maz?

    Actually, I'm pretty certain Poe took Finn to Leia because Finn had insider information.


    What about J.J. referring to their meeting as a "reunion" also? A reunion of what?


    Not necessarily. If you had not seen someone in 14 years, would you recognise them?


    But this is only true under the assumption that Luke and Leia still spent a lot of time around each other... but as TFA and new canon make blatantly clear, at some point after ROTJ Luke went off to train a new generation of Jedi, while Leia focused on the rebuilding of the Republic. They went separate ways. Who says Leia ever met Luke's daughter?

    Now if Luke had a daughter, which Leia never met, and everyone (including Leia) believed was dead... would Leia even entertain the notion that some woman they just met was his daughter without some good cause?
     
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  7. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Why should Chewbacca have been so preoccupied with newcomer Finn as opposed to lifelong friend Leia?

    I had once theorized that, whatever Leia had heard included the part about Chewbacca firing on Ben, and that's why she might have ignored him. But that does not seem to have been the case.

    This mistake was fairly obvious and someone should have pointed out the problem before the final edit. It's more than a little jarring it wasn't dealt with or considered important enough to fix.

    All they had to do was, as Chewbacca approached Leia, was to have the hug for a few seconds, and then Leia could have patted him on the back as he left to catch up with Finn and she went on to meet Rey.

    No one is perfect, of course, but, with so many talented individuals involved and a Story Group there to ensure continuity, this could have been easily fixed.

    Besides that, how were we supposed to extrapolate all the things J.J. mentioned based on what we were shown?

    More generally, I think it could even speak, on some level, to how (as compared with the rest of the cast) relatively little consideration was apportioned to Leia's character (and even Chewbacca's) in this.

    I hope they pay more attention to these small but important details in Episode VIII and IX.


    JediMasterRobert
     
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  8. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    That's not the point though. JJ has essentially established here that Leia has a strong sense ability. Leia even says in the novel that she would know if Luke was dead. What JJ is saying here is that Leia and Rey have no other connection beyond being Force users and having had cared for Han. If Leia did once know of Rey in any capacity, she would sense it again.


    Nothing indicates that Luke and Leia wouldn't have seen each other over the years. Even with Luke building his order and Leia working politically, they were very close. Leia even says about "bringing Luke home". She'd have known if Luke had a daughter, He'd have told her. Why wouldn't he have? They were obviously still close as, like you say, Leia sent her son to train with him.

    Firstly, as I say above, I can't see why Leia wouldn't have known of or met Luke's daughter. Secondly, Leia can force sense these things - she would feel the connection. She would see the resemblance of Rey (both in how she looked as a little girl to how she looks now - in the flashback young Rey has same hairstyle!). There is nothing we hear so far that indicates Luke suffered a tragedy of this nature. Everything appeared to be going well for Luke until the Jedi were slaughtered - and that is said to have occurred 7 years before TFA. What's more, Leia sends her son to train with Luke. Had Luke lost his wife and kid before this point, do you think Leia would be that insensitive? Would Luke be capable of training anyone?

    The only way Rey can be Luke's is if he made someone pregnant and never knew about it. That is the last vestige of that theory.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 9, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 9, 2016 ---
    Absolutely. They also missed a potentially very emotional scene - Leia and Chewie hugging and crying in each others arms - that would have huuuuuge emotional impact on the OT fans. And it would have been the best emotional pay-off for Han's death. I mean, when Han was killed I wasn't that affected by it. I mean, I saw it coming a mile off, it was a clunky scene IMO (Han being so easily fooled was silly IMO) and they didn't go far enough with Chewie's reaction. Coupled with Luke being out of the way and never seeing his reaction it was all rather muted for me. I expected Chewie to get off the Falcon and comfort Leia and couldn't believe it when he just ambled past her. Big error. Like with Artoo waking up. Rey's sudden powers. And Maz disappearing. I don't want to get all "bashy' again, but there were some pretty poorly handled scenes in TFA.
     
  9. timonder

    timonder Clone Commander

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    To me, that's a Freudian slip. JJ tries to sell the idea that there was nothing special about the embrace but achieves the opposite. :D

    There were two reunions Leia was hoping for desperately. The first one was a reunion with Luke. That's advertised as early as the crawl. The second was a reunion with her own son. She told Han as much.

    And then out of the Falcon steps Rey. Luke's daughter, who Leia probably didn't know existed before TFA. And Leia hugs her like she would hug her estranged brother and her own estranged child. Meeting Rey for the first time is a substitute for those two reunions Leia thought she needed in order to keep going.
     
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  10. ArynCrinn

    ArynCrinn 1030th Lieutenant (Jr Mod)

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    Too many cooks spoil the broth?

    Also, having half as much time to plan a new trilogy as George Lucas had to develop the Episode 1 doesn't help much either. It's a good thing J.J. was able to get an extra 6 months. I imagine things would have turned out quite differently if they had been given another 30 months. Star Wars isn't something that should be rushed, regardless of how much money you have invested.

    I'd certainly hope so. They've already got a lot of character establishment to build upon, amd Rian had more than twice as much time to work on the script. Still not sure about IX though... I keep hearing the Rian Johnson is writing, but some sources just say he's only writing a script treatment.


    Except there must be something to explain why Luke wasn't there at the time... false reports about his daughter could be one such reason?
    There isn't any plausible explanation why Luke would be present and unable to stop Kylo, even if he couldn't bring himself to kill him?

    Not insensitive, but desperate. Sending Ben to Luke was basically a last resort for Leia. She had tried to protect Ben from Snoke's influence, and failed. What else was she supposed to do?

    Isn't that kind of the point though? It would explain a lot...
    Luke having lost his own daughter in the past, adds a lot of context for some of the events that have happened... do you think a man in such a position would be able to bring themselves to kill someone else's child... kill his sister's child?
     
  11. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    But then we're back to - Luke knew he had a daughter and so Leia likely knew and thus why wouldn't she recognise Rey as Luke's? And if Luke was looking for his daughter then Leia too would've known his daughter was alive but missing - and then Rey turns up? A Force sensitive girl, who had no parents and was abandoned? But she doesn't recognise her - in the flesh or through the Force? It doesn't fit. I don't know what Luke was doing but it could've been anything.

    You'd have to be really desperate to send your problematic, emotionally troubled son to a grieving father to deal with.

    Maybe. Or maybe Luke just didn't have the knowledge to train a new order - hence why he is searching out the first Jedi Temple - where there could be knowledge to help him? I don't think Luke needs to have lost his own daughter to not be able to kill his own nephew, either.

    As for the "reunion" thing mentioned above - again, JJ has said Leia never met Rey. She doesn't know her beyond what she has been told. Leia doesn't recognise her through the Force. So the word is just a slip by JJ - the scene is largely a reunion of other characters and so he just uses the term in that context.
     
  12. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    I remember catching this during my first viewing of The Force Awakens and feeling perplexed at this scene. Did no OT fan preview this and have a similar reaction? Or was everyone so infatuated with and fixated upon the new characters that this was not even a perceptible issue?

    Cutting the heart out of the scene like that should have caused someone to say, "Uh... Mr. Abrams, shouldn't Chewbacca and Leia console one another? Like real family and friends would?"

    This I consider a very strong possibility.

    Even more so when we examine the symmetry of possibilities with regards to Luke as compared with his father's character development in this area:
    • Anakin Skywalker transitioned to the Dark Side with the false knowledge that Padme and his child (he didn't know about the twins) were forever lost.
    • Once Anakin learns he had a son and his son is alive, Anakin/Vader makes it a primary mission to find Luke.
    • Luke Skywalker disappears from the galaxy after he is lead to believe his wife and daughter were forever lost due to some atrocity enacted by Snoke or Kylo or The Knights of Ren or The First Order.
    • This time around, it is perhaps the child who rediscovers the father: Rey, learning her possible father (Luke) is alive, is (off-screen, behind the scenes) consoled and convinced by Leia to go to Luke, knowing Rey would fill him with the renewed sense of hope and give him the strength he needs to return.
    At the end, the dialogue between Rey and Leia, both in the film and in the novel, is intentionally cryptic and also feels strange, even a bit cold, not necessarily maternal from Leia's perspective or daughterly from Rey's:

    Rey: But you're also afraid. In sending me away, you're reminded.

    Leia
    : You won't share the fate of our son.​

    I like the movie very much, but, if I'm being completely honest and objective, as a viewer and a writer, that whole end sequence could have been handled more carefully, starting with Chewbacca and Leia.

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  13. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Interesting parallels but in this idea you have said above that Luke did know he had a daughter but believed her dead. But then, Leia would've likely known about Rey and we then have the all not being able to sense her issue.

    I think it would literally have to be the case that Luke didn't even know he made his wife/gf pregnant and she left him at some point and went off and gave birth. I could perhaps see that Luke only thought he had a wife who either left him/disappeared/was kidnapped. I just feel that, due to what I have stated above etc, that Luke (and thus Leia) can't know that a child ever existed. I'm not saying that isn't the case - it's plausible. But I feel that it is the last vestige of the theory of Luke being Rey's father.

    But like I say, Leia felt Luke was in a frame of mind that made him capable of helping Ben. Now if Luke lost his wife and or daughter I just don't see that as reasonable.
     
  14. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    I think you're probably right in that it would be more reasonable if he did not know about the pregnancy.

    In the context of this thread and the revelation of "mistakes" with Chewbacca and Leia:

    perhaps the storytellers knew what they ultimately wanted but didn't resolve all these kinds of details either deliberately (to leave things open for speculation until resolved, partly or entirely, in VIII) or out of indecision or uncertainty (i.e. unsure where Rian was going to take this in writing for VIII and IX).

    J.J. crammed quite a bit into his figurative "mystery box"
    http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/02/whats-in-j-j-abramss-mystery-box/

    Some quotes from his famous presentation:
    The concept of the "mystery box" is compelling enough and generally a good tool for storytellers, but it's the judgement that matters: what you decide to place within it, and how much.

    Things like Chewbacca and Leia's feelings after Han's death do not belong in the "mystery box," I think.

    Rey and Leia consoling each other and perhaps even giving us some basic understanding or appreciation of their possible relationship beyond being Force sensitive strangers who just met (without necessarily revealing things) could also have been artfully kept out of the "mystery box."

    Instead of being so consumed by the question of "what comes next," J.J. could have taken a page out of Jedi Sensibility 101 and have been mindful of the moment.

    Where the characters were at that crucial moment of return.

    What they were thinking.

    Where they were emotionally.

    What they would have naturally done and said as a result of that emotional buildup.

    As Yoda said, "All his life has he looked away, to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was, hmm? What he was doing."

    It can be reckless.

    (yoda 2)

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  15. Bosc

    Bosc Force Attuned
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    That sounds absolutely dreadful to me. But then, I'm one of those for whom the lack of hug didn't register. It never ceases to fascinate me how we can look at the same thing and come away with such different outlooks. :)
     
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  16. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    This is the kind of emotion I refer to. And Han calms Chewie down by saying he needs to protect Leia. I'm not saying Chewie and Leia needed to blubber all over each other, but have a meaningful embrace over the loss of the love of their lives.

     
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  17. Choose Light

    Choose Light Jedi General

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    I basically got out of that scene what Abrams said he was intending--that Chewy was concerned primarily with Finn, and that Leia was concerned with finding this FS girl she'd sensed, in whom she'd felt a similar grief at Han's death. I think I might even have kept that point of view if it hadn't been for 1. the shot of the right half of Chewy walking through the left edge of the screen while the camera focuses in on Leia looking at Rey. Chewy doesn't look to be in any particular hurry and ignores Leia just as she ignores him. And in addition, 2. Chewy and Leia are also shown later grieving separately. For me, even if the first issue had been left in, changing the second would have mitigated it. We could still have had the first shot being All About Rey and not moving the focus from her, etc., and still conveyed Leia and Chewy's longstanding friendship and understanding in a later shot. I'm glad Abrams admitted that this was an error.

    As for what Abrams's statement tells us about Rey and Leia's relationship...well, not much! I think we need to hold "reunion" in balance with "The idea being that both of them being strong with the Force and never having met, would know about each other." So it's a reunion because they "met" one another by sensing one another through the Force, although Leia had been told about Rey and Rey about Leia offscreen. And now they have a mutual grief that binds them together as "family."

    That's two heartfelt hugs Rey got that day. I doubt she'd had any at all in the last fourteen years. The belonging she sought was ahead of her and not behind. :)
     
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  18. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Sorry but that ^^^ p*sses all over the Han death scene in TFA.
     
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  19. Choose Light

    Choose Light Jedi General

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    What p*sses all over the Han death scene?
     
  20. littlepadawan91

    littlepadawan91 Rebelscum

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    They never met each other, but they were having a reunion.

    Ok, J.J
     
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