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J.J. Abrams Responds to Whether the Star Wars Sequels Should Have Been Mapped Out

Discussion in 'SWNN News Feed' started by SWNN Probe, May 26, 2021.

  1. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    You got a link to that? Seems like that would be a bigger story than this mess of a quote.
    Ah, I see... I don't think he's really argued that much with fans. I actually prefer Rian Johnson's respectful interaction with fans over the vaporous quotes from JJ. That's not a slight against JJ, just a style difference. The amazing thing is Johnson has maintained a cordial Twitter presence in the face of lunatics.



    I'd rather a creator be interactive about the creative process.
     
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  2. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Force Sensitive

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    Lucas always had a plan for Anakin Skywalker
     
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  3. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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  4. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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  5. Matt_T

    Matt_T Rebel General

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    Should have been mapped out, huh? Chewie, take the professor in the back and plug him into the hyperdrive.
     
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  6. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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    I keep hearing complaints from the TFM that the problem with the ST was that it wasn't planned out. Yet when asked for specifics I am yet to get one. Even people who point to the fact that Rey being a nobody in TLJ and ending up being Palpatine's granddaughter in TROS as some form of inconsistency, Are wrong, since Rian explained that the 'nobody' answer was never the final answer.

    I could see the plan from the start of TFA. Rey would be a Jedi, Ren would change and be redeemed and Finn would become some sort of leader and the rebels would win. And that's what we got.

    When it comes down to it, the complaints about there being no plan or a different director. Just boils down to 'my fan fiction wasn't produced'. Or the films aren't a fan insert.



    If there was such a plan, then why is is that the Vader in the OT comes across as such a formidable man. Yet there is absolutely no echo of that man in the PT? Why does Anakin in the PT (especially in 2 & 3) come across as a needy man baby who needs his mommy-wife and his pseudo father figure Palpatine to tell him what to do and give him a spine?
    --- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2021, Original Post Date: May 30, 2021 ---
    Exactly!
     
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  7. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Rian explained that "nobody" was his answer, and the third movie was free to do what it wanted. His direct quote at the time was "anything's open," since he wasn't writing or directing the next movie. That's a very different answer than "this was never the final answer."

    That 'Last Jedi' Reveal About Rey's Parents Is Actually 'Still Open' | HuffPost

    From an interview with SlashFilm:

    How Rey's Parents Were Decided by Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams (slashfilm.com)



    I've definitely heard those complaints, but I don't think that's the crux of the "planned/outlined" issue. That's a "complaint" with the ST as a whole. When it comes down to planning/outlining, but the most compelling complaint (and one I stand by today) is simply that it doesn't come down to feeling consistent or planned. Art isn't always about knowing, but about feeling. We put characters in danger to feel excitement, even when we know they'll be safe because we're only halfway through the book/movie/show/etc. We like pieces of media because they make us feel happy or sad or remind us of a piece of media we've previously consumed. And sure, a messy plan doesn't feel like a plan at all either, but a consistent mess is at least consistent. That's what the PT has over the ST IMO, the mess (which I adore and love) feels consistent. It's one man's vision of the world and the story, and while Lucas was inconsistent in alignment with his previous vision of the world in the OT, the PT was consistently his.

    The ST was not that consistent. JJ didn't know what to do with Rey and her heritage. He clearly didn't tell RJ, and he kept flip-flopping on what it'd be even when filming TROS, if Daisy is to be believed. Kylo and Rey are the only characters with a solid through-line, and even that's not entirely true.

    In TLJ, Finn is set up with Rose as a romantic interest.
    By TROS, they're not together - heck, they have the talk outside of the movie, offscreen even in a book. (And by this, I mean the talk was mentioned as "oh, we decided to be better as friends," as if the author didn't want to think about the talk itself.)

    In TLJ, Kylo is set up as the main villain, the Big Bad, the Supreme Leader.
    In TROS, Palpatine returns and Kylo goes back to the role he's played this entire trilogy, The Dragon.

    In TLJ, Snoke blatantly brags about bridging Kylo and Rey's minds, making it feel like a manufactured event.
    In TROS, they were apparently always Dyads. (Which I don't mind too much, but it does raise questions.)

    These movies neither look nor feel consistent in their choices, so why should the audience believe they are either?
    (And to be fair, the PT absolutely had this problem between the Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship in AOTC and ROTS. Both showed legitimate looks at the relationship, but the progression from one to the other was so fast fans even as young as myself couldn't believe it.)
     
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  8. Viper78

    Viper78 Rebel Official

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    The reason for this is to show Anakin's journey from a young boy essentially taken from his mother by the Jedi to becoming a young insecure man manipulated into becoming a Sith by Palpatine. His transition from Jedi to Sith, from good to pure hate and evil.

    It was all planned out by George Lucas, remember he had nearly 15 years to consider this scenario.
     
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    You’re speaking to consistency in characterization. Why would the 20 year-old version of a character behave differently than the 40 year-old version? Probably because there’s been two decades of life experience there and people tend to change their demeanor over time. The consistency that matters is theme.

    Darth Vader, in the OT, is a man utterly divorced of his humanity. Thus the metaphor of his mechanization. His armor appears imposing, but truthful it’s only there to protect the broken and fragile person underneath. The PT details how he got to that place - how he’d sacrificed that humanity for the power to protect the one he loved, but in the end wound up with neither. That profound loss created the figure that becomes the identity of Darth Vader. That’s who we find in the OT. That’s always who he’s been.
    If I understand right, that’s essentially what’s at the heart of the criticism. TFA very much knowingly pushed the agenda of reiteration - it’s the story we know, but viewed through a modern lens. Different names, but the same basic conflict leading to the same logical resolution.

    TLJ though was a deliberate departure from that mindset. Hell, one of the taglines for the film was Luke literally saying “This is not going to go the way you think.” The defining ethos of that installment was: We’re not going to keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. We’re going to grow beyond what came before. Devoutly anti-reiteration.

    TROS’s reaction to that was to largely disregard that shift and steer it back to the structure of reiteration - to retell the story we all know the way we expected. Again, it’s about consistency in theme. The separate filmmakers had separate concepts of what the core theme of the story was. The result is a disjointed anthology of subject. Perhaps, if all three episodes had been written in collaboration with one another, there’d have been a greater material cohesion.

    Or maybe it would have been way way worse. No way to know :)
     
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  10. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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    Doesn't work. There should be echoes of Anakin being a brute and prone to argression as a child into his teenage years. As it is he comes across as a petulant coward. That's not who Vader is in the OT.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 31, 2021, Original Post Date: May 31, 2021 ---
    Nothing in those articles discount what I posted above that the 'Rey nobody' was never to be the final answer.



    I disagree. Here's a great video that sums up the producers intent on linking Rey to be a Palpatine:


    There's also the name change from Kira to Rey (which is Spanish for king) just before they started shooting. And the fact that Daisy Ridley was instructed and coached to speak with a Received Pronunciation (or BBC British) accent. Which is supposed to denote the aristocracy in the SW universe. And throughout the first 6 films , SW has always been Palpatine vs Skywalker. So it was unlikely that they were going to bring in a new vaillain.


    So what? Finn's romantic life is not the crux of the ST. Further there is only so much you can put in a 2.5 hour film

    And he was the Supreme Leader in TROS. But from the TFA he was always set up to turn/be redeemed, hence the constant reference to him being conflicted. If he was to be and remain the villain why the need for his internal struggle.



    No, they were always Dyads in the force. The final force bond scene in TLJ speaks to this, Snoke is dead yet they still maintain a force bond.




    You seem to be confusing inconsistencies with plot twists. Which has been a storytelling device for millennia.
     
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  11. Viper78

    Viper78 Rebel Official

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    I would say slaughtering an entire tribe of Tusken Raiders then executing Count Dooku would count as acts of aggression. The signs were there in who he would become in AOTC and at the beginning of ROTS.

    People change, Anakin/Vader changed and this is the whole point of the Prequel Trilogy. It might not have worked for you but the PT was by far the most planned out trilogy.
     
    #31 Viper78, May 31, 2021
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  12. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    No, they discount that your quote about "Rian saying 'Rey Nobody was never the final answer.'" Rian explicitly says two things. The first is that JJ did NOT tell him who Rey's parents were, but they seemed to be on the same page. That means that JJ didn't have a special plan for Rey's heritage in TFA, which makes sense considering he wasn't the original pick for Episode 9. Combine that with Daisy Ridley's own words about how JJ seemed to flip on Rey's heritage during the filming of TROS, and you have something that's clearly not planned.

    The second thing is that RJ stated that "the door is open." That means "someone else can change it," NOT that "this was never the final answer." It's no different than Daisy or John or any of the actors saying they're willing to come back. That's just it, they're willing. It doesn't mean that anything is planned or could or couldn't happen, simply that there's a possibility. That's the entire point of the quote - Rian is literally saying "I have written my story, and this is what I believe to be the truth, but the door is open for someone to change that if they feel like it." And JJ felt like it. There was no plan or rhyme or reason to that. JJ just felt like it.

    I've seen the video, and we've actually gone back-and-forth on this point. The video proves that someone was good at guessing and theorizing and was right. Kudos to them. If JJ had decided that Rey was a Kenobi - which he almost did - you'd be backing a different video.

    I'm pretty sure that was because Ridley tried speaking with a different accent, and she was too wooden. Once they changed Rey's accent to something closer to what Daisy naturally speaks, she was able to emote better. I sadly can't find a source for that at the moment though, so this point can go to you.

    The point is that there are inconsistencies within even smaller character arcs that planned out stories may not have. Or even if they do have them, they take better care of them then throwing them out in a single line of dialogue in a side book. Finn and Rose's connection wasn't the crux of the ST, sure, but it was a big part for both characters, and it was thrown out without a care in the world for...reasons. It didn't hurt anyone, and it's not like Finn was going to end up with Rey, so the question is why cut it? In this 2.5 movie we had enough time for Finn to mention that he has to tell Rey something at least three times (IIRC) AND THEN STILL NEVER TELL REY, but they couldn't have changed that to him having a couple of sweet moments with Rose, or at least a nice "I love you" over comms?

    Supreme Leader in title, Villain Number 2 in actuality. Kylo can all the titles in the world, but if he's not acting like the Main Villain, then those titles don't matter. And yes, while he was set up to have the hope of redemption in TFA, TLJ made it clear that no, that's not what the character wants. He stopped struggling with the Light Side in TLJ. He was ready to do what his grandfather couldn't. And then TROS went back on his character development.

    Or maybe Snoke just lost control over something he started? If I start a car and then I have a heart attack, the car is going to keep the engine on. (Although I'd argue that Rey turned the metaphorical car off when she shut the door, and then JJ turned it back on because he found it interesting and useful.)


    I'm really not, but your concern is touching. Although I think I can see why you say that.
    A plot twist is a revealing of information or an action that changes the plots and/or characters. Finn revealing that he and Rose have talked about their relationship off-screen and are friends can be seen as a plot twist from a certain point of view, but it's hardly a good one. It's more like an aborted arc than a plot twist. That being said, a bad plot twist can certainly feel like an inconstancy. (On the other hand, good inconsistencies can make things feel as if they were plot twists. This one is far more rare, but quite interesting when used.)

    Rey being a Palpatine is a plot twist, and a neutral one at that. It's not bad, and it's totally fine if you like it; but I will continue to argue that when it occurs makes it have a net-negative effect.
    Since we're talking about Plot Twists, I'll link one of my favorite videos about them below. And yes it's for GM advice, but I've found it solid in all sorts of circumstances.


    The main points of a good plot twist according to this are:
    1. The Initial Assumption must be created.
    2. The twist must be meaningful - if it doesn't change anything about the goals, tactics, or obstacles for our heroes, then it's just a distraction.
    3. The twist must be post-dictable - the audience must be able to see all the clues with the benefit of hindsight
    4. The twist must be sensible - if the twist doesn't make sense, it undermines the believability and realism (in-world) of the adventure/story, and the audience rejects the twist as a dumb idea.
    5. The twist must make the adventure better, not worse.

    I think both Rey Nobody and Rey Palpatine can be put up against the above points, but Rey Nobody is going to win from where I'm standing.

    But this isn't the only guide or advice for a good plot twist - Just Write proposes that the best plot twists are when two things are revealed to be one and the same, or things we previously thought as the same are revealed to be different. For Star Wars, that's Vader and Anakin Skywalker.


    You mean like a deleted scene where Anakin attacks a young Greedo, or the massacre of the Tusken Raiders? ;)
    And we can't forget about Clone Wars or even The Clone Wars, both canon at different times and used to explore Anakin and the war as a whole. Granted, one was created retroactively while the other was tie-in media, but they still count to a degree.
     
  13. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that TFA and TROS were really two projects that weren't full on Lucasfilm productions. JJ's team at Bad Robot worked in concert with Lucusfilm to make the film. To me it feels like TROS is a film that really didn't concern itself with what the creatives at Lucasfilm thought about the story. It was JJ/Iger/KK making a Star Wars film. The Last Jedi/Rogue One/Solo were much more Lucasfilm projects. Rian Johnson basically lived at Lucasfilm. I think JJ did a fine job rebooting Star Wars. That's what he's good at, but when Lucasfilm accepted TLJ they really should have found someone to stuck with that vision. I'm not sure who is to blame there, but after Fisher passed CT couldn't get the script right and Team Disney made the safe choice in bringing JJ back.
     
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  14. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Thats's not "his" answer either. It's the most dramatically potent "answer" that he thought could be given, as it was the hardest one for Rey and the audience to hear at that moment. And only in the context of his movie.

    The Last Jedi wasn't given the job of deciding or confirming who or what Rey's parents were. But he could still make Rey and the audience deal with an answer that is way more dramatic, in the context of that scene, than just gratuitously dangling the question.
     
    #34 Martoto, Jun 1, 2021
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  15. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    It is his answer though. By sheer value of the fact he put it in the movie and has a thought process for it. That's his answer. If Rian had a separate answer that would have fit the story, he would have put it in.

    Rian thanks the fact that JJ didn't have an answer for him, and that he had "the freedom to figure it out." To me, that sounds a lot like "yeah, here's my answer." RJ's "still open" comment is more acknowledging that he had no control over the story anymore than anything else. Like JJ in TFA, Rian told his story, gave his answers, and walked away.

    That's not special to Rey though. That was RJ's motivation for virtually every character. RJ gave each character a truth, planted an angel and devil on each shoulder, and then let the characters go.
    For Rey it was the truth about who she was in "you have no place in this story." So what's the answer? Make your own.
    For Finn it was confronting the fact that "morality is grey. Life free, don't join." So what's the answer? Join because there's something worth fighting for.
    For Poe it was "sit down, shut up, and obey." So what's the answer? ...sit down, shut up, and obey.
    For Luke it was "you have failed, and you may do so again." So what's the answer? Failure doesn't mean one should stop trying.
    For Kylo it was "you have been failed, but you're on the wrong side." And his answer is to burn all the sides down.

    In a way, though, it was. The set-up of the previous trilogies thrust the idea of a "twist" onto the second act. Vader's twist (along with the "There Is Another" ) happened in ESB, not ROTJ. The beginning of the Clone Wars and Anakin's secret marriage happened in AOTC, not ROTS. The third movies have been about dealing with the twists and fallout at the end of the second. In ROTJ, Luke has to confront the truth about Vader being his father as well as the fact that his mentors knew about it. In ROTJ, Luke must come to terms with the fact that Leia is his sister. In ROTS, Anakin must deal with the fact that he is about to be a father, something he never dreamed up, but could upset his real ambitions and dreams. He must confront the consequences of his own actions from the previous movie (marrying Padme, not being able to save Shmi, and having similar nightmares about his Padme).

    From that perspective, it was absolutely TLJ's job to answer that question.

    We had the set up/initial assumption - "Rey is someone special."
    We had the twist/subversion - "Rey is no one special."
    And then we needed the acceptance, or in this case, the synthesis - "Rey is someone special because she is Rey; and that's fine."

    But with TROS, we got:

    Set up/Initial assumption - "Rey is someone special."
    Twist/Subversion - "Rey is no one special."
    Double Subversion - "Rey is actually special because she's a Palpatine."
    Triple Subversion - "Rey takes on the Skywalker name."


    Again, the problem with the Palpatine Twist isn't that it's bad, but that it's too late. (It also doesn't change anything about Rey's character, goals, obstacles, or motivations. Rey's character isn't one who can, should, or has really ever been challenged by the Dark Side in any meaningful way. I was more afraid of EZRA going to the Dark Side than I ever was of Rey.

    If Rey had been one seeking power to escape a bad situation, and then learned that her grandfather was Palpatine, we could at least deal with the potential conundrum of Rey going from seeking power to escape, to potentially seeking power for the sake of power. If Rey had a history of believing that she was related to the heroes in the in-world stories, or even just that she was related to the Skywalkers/Solos, and then was told she comes from the line of villains, that may do something to her psyche that she'd have to rebuild. But neither of those things happened.)


    And then the problem comes with what happened in TROS - what happens when you answer an already answered question in a far less dramatic sense? You get confusion, annoyance, and anger. The problem with the Palpatine twist is that it inherently makes the story less interesting, because we're covering the same ground already covered. Rey is still dealing with "who am I" after she has already learned the answer and knows what to do next. She can't move on to other aspects of any character arc because she's set recycling the same one of "knowing my heritage is important for my future" over and over again. It also muddies the message of "anyone can be a Jedi," when our main Jedi are all linked to the same two-to-three families. (Legends also had this problem.)
     
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  16. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    The answer for his scene in his movie. Which was not tasked to define Rey's parents. He was serving the drama of his own movie. Not the drama that is inferred by fans of lore and lineage in Star Wars as a whole saga.

    Yes that's right. Why should RJ have only special and unique motivation for every character?

    Not according to the film-makers. It only seems to have been TLJ's responsibility or Johnson's desire to unambiguously reveal the answer to Rey's question about her parents according to some fans. It was only interesting to Johnson because the audience would expect Rey's choice in that moment and her future course of action should be determined by it. And that offering an answer, provided by an arguably unreliable narrator no less, that disarms the audience of these tropish certainties was the most dramatically potent thing to do.

    The fact that The Last Jedi was not intended to define Rey's parents is the very reason why Johnson was told he could do what he wanted. He could have had Kylo claim that Luke is her father if he wanted to with the knowledge that TROS would refute it. IF he thought that it was the most dramatically potent thing for his movie. (I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that, if he had done that, it would have been a many, many times more divisive moment than anything that's in TLJ is already reported to be.)

    Well then you get a similar situation to Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. ".. different point of view."

    And, to be accurate, Empire Strikes back didn't confirm who Luke's father was. Return Of The Jedi did.

    When you think about it, there's no real storytelling similarity regarding Rey's parents and Luke's in the OT. In TFA we just get Rey acting coy about her family, a glimpse of the trauma of her separation from them, and Yaz perceives her yearning for "belonging" which is inferred by us to mean her family.

    When The Last Jedi picks up with Rey already installed in her Dagobah, Johnson chose to exploit the prospect of Luke representing the belonging or "family" Rey supposedly yearns for and then disarms Rey and us of any happy epiphanies. It shows Rey's susceptibility and suggestibility to getting an easy answer can lead to getting into deep water. She finally learns this after Kylo claims that her parents are even less important in this story than she is (except to him) and she still rejects him.
     
    #36 Martoto, Jun 1, 2021
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  17. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I don't have time to respond to everything, but I'll respond to one main part. I'll get to the rest later, probably tomorrow.

    ROTJ was Luke confronting what he already figured out in ESB. It was the nail in the coffin in the confirmation that was stated in ESB. But let's play your game and say it was ROTJ that confirmed the new information. It still follows the formula I stated before:

    Initial Assumption/Set Up - Luke's father Anakin Skywalker was killed by Vader.
    Twist/Subversion - Luke's father Anakin Skywalker and Vader are the same person.
    Acceptance/Synthesis - Vader is confirmed to be Luke's father. Luke's father Vader, because he is also Anakin, still has some good in him and can be redeemed.

    Luke's goal was changed as such - he went from wanting justice and to strike down evil to wanting redemption and to reconcile with his father. The revelation changed things. The same is true on a smaller scale for the "Leia is my sister" reveal. The potential love triangle between Han, Leia, and Luke ended, which allowed Han and Leia to focus more on their relationship as a result.

    We had whole scenes dedicated to these reveals and the emotions presented after them. Not every emotion, but many of them.

    Contrast that with what we got with the ST:

    Initial Assumption/Set Up - Rey is somebody.
    Twist/Subversion - Rey is nobody special.
    Double Subversion - Rey is special because she's related to Palpatine.
    Triple Subversion - Rey is somebody special because she's now a Skywalker.

    TROS dedicates no time to Rey dealing with the aftermath of any of these reveals. Rey can't deal with being a "Nobody" because the movie needs to set her up as being a Palpatine. She can't deal with being a Palpatine because the movie needs to move on and do other things, like her being a Force Dyad. She can't be a Skywalker because it's the last line in the movie. (Not to mention her relationship with Luke and Leia is wonky at best.)
    The ST needed to pick one of these, stick to it by the second movie, and explore it in the third. Through the process of exploring this, they could maybe get to the point where it feels earned for Rey to take on the Skywalker name (I still would have preferred Organa, since that's the closest bond Rey had to either sibling, and Leia was adopted herself, so there's an added weight), but the still need to the audience feel like the name is earned.

    That's where mapping things out would have been helpful. Sure, the OT wasn't as fully mapped out, but it also got super, SUPER lucky. Why count on luck when skill and foresight can get you just as far?
     
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  18. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I'm not playing a game. As far as the audience knew by the end of Empire, either Vader killed Luke's father or Obi Wan had lied. Regardless of what Luke was figuring out internally (which is not storytelling), Lucas still needed to tell the audience in no uncertain terms that Vader was Luke's father, but also that Obi-Wan hadn't lied......

    The storytelling regarding Rey's parentage is just not the same as with Luke's in the OT. Luke wasn't bereft of belonging. He just knew his father died when he was young. Later on he learned that his father was involved in great adventures, like the ones that Luke yearns for. And then later still he learns that those adventures are how he met his end. And then later.... etc.

    Luke was a farmer because, as far as he knew, he was the orphaned son of a farmer
    Then he becomes a rebel pilot after learning his father was an ace
    he trains to become a Jedi after learning his father was once one

    It bears no resemblance with Rey's quandary regarding her abandonment and hopes of reunification. They are completely unrelated to her practical involvement in the story. But it's tempting for the audience to anticipate cause and effect in a similar manner to Luke's story.
     
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  19. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Or (and this is unbridled insanity worthy of me being committed to indefinite psychiatric care) what if they worked out what that relationship would be ahead of time and invested effort in having Leia reconcile her Skywalker heritage? Then those two threads are dovetailed and carry more emotional resonance. Crazy, I know.
    Sure it does. It plays into their respective motivations. Luke revered his father and despised Vader. That’s his principle driver. The worst thing for him to discover was that the two were one in the same. He’s then forced to redefine why he’s doing what he’s doing. To grow. To evolve. To forge a new path forward.

    Rey, similarly, revered the idea of her parents. In her mind, they were intrinsically decent people that left her for a good reason and would one day return. The worst thing for her to discover was that they were in actuality abominable fiends who treated her like property to be sold for self-serving ends. She too then is forced to redefine why she’s doing what she’s doing. To grow. To evolve. To forge a new path forward.

    Rey, after TLJ, has to struggle with her legacy: the child of monstrous dregs who never loved her. She has to overcome that dark inheritance. TROS reverses that advancement and then restages it. Actually, her parents are practically saints now - both of them dying to protect her (Why both? DRAMA!!). That dark inheritance is now shifted from her parents to her grandparent. And now we’re no longer dealing with relatable everyday evil, but the evilest evil that’s ever been evil! She’s basically the granddaughter of Satan now.

    That reframing is certainly way the hell more potent in the grander picture, but it’s also strangely redundant narratively and thematically. What if (and again, this is pure absurdity) the two writing teams had worked out what that character progression was to be together, ahead of time, and had those two threads agree and support one another?
     
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  20. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    BLASPHEMY! THIS LEVEL OF THOUGHTFULNESS AND EMOTIONAL RESONANCE IS ILLEGAL!
    (But really your idea would have been totally awesome and I would have loved to see it.)
     
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