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J.J. Abrams Responds to Whether the Star Wars Sequels Should Have Been Mapped Out

Discussion in 'SWNN News Feed' started by SWNN Probe, May 26, 2021.

  1. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Luke had an impression of his parents (given to him) that kept changing.

    Rey had no clear idea of what her parents were. She just placed hope in them to return. (using a basic orphan trope). It's what's keeping her stuck on Jakku. It's not driving her ambition. When she discovers she has special abilities she begins to let go of her hope that she'll be reunited with them. Even accepting that they are either dead or just not able to return, ever. But that's OK because she can still find belonging with someone who can help her with her talent.

    I don't agree that she's struggling with the idea of having monstrous parents by the end of TLJ. I think she's stopped trusting Kylo. She already feared that her parents were nothing special. It was not difficult for Kylo to get Rey to concede that. But the rest of what Kylo says is not acknowledged by Rey at all. I think she's struggling with still having no clear idea of why she's a big part of this story.

    The thing for Rey to take away from all these epiphanies is that her loyalties and judgement are not pulled all over the place each time someone tells her who she is, where she's from and what she's destined to be. And in TROS she expresses this. There's no trace of Rey being traumatised by her monstrous parents in TLJ or at the beginning of TROS.
     
    #41 Martoto, Jun 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
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  2. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Everything that's revealed to Luke in Star Wars validates his instinct to seek out adventure.

    Everything that's revealed to Rey in The Force Awakens undermines her instinct to await rescue.
     
    #42 Martoto, Jun 2, 2021
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  3. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I think you’re conflating what the suggested advancement is for her at the end of TFA. In TLJ it’s not so subtly promoted and reinforced what’s driving her actions in that film.

    “Your parents threw you away like garbage...But you can't stop needing them. It's your greatest weakness. Looking for them everywhere, in Han Solo, now in Skywalker.” We’re explicitly told, at her core, what’s compelling the character toward her aims. Which is precisely the conflict that’s awaiting her later on.

    After she’s flushed down the darkside toilette of terror, desperately seeking direction and guidance, what is it she pleads for? Show me my purpose? Show me my place? Show me my belonging? Nope, it’s “Let me see them. My parents, please." In her darkest moment, when she’s struggling for focus, that’s what matters most to her. Being back with them.

    In the elevator to meet Snoke, when Kylo wants to shut down her idealistic attempts to save him, what does he hit her with? “I saw who your parents are." Why? Because that’s her button. That’s her key motivator and he knows it.

    All that establishment is there to setup the watershed revelation for Rey that the people she was so forlorn to reunite with never had any desire for the same. “They were filthy junk traders who sold you off for drinking money...You come from nothing. You're nothing." It isn’t a disclosure of ‘identity’, but one of ‘value’ connecting back to his earlier assessment. He’s saying that she’s garbage - garbage that came from garbage. That’s her worth. That’s her value. She’s nothing to everybody except him, because he was tossed away just like her.
    Again, it’s not about whether her parents were special. It’s about whether she was special to them. That’s the fear that’s being exploited. That’s the “truth” she has to grapple with. If you’re of the mind that it’s fairly simple for her to overcome, then you’ve totally dismantled the dramatic heft of that scene. The weight is completely evaporated. That moment becomes incidental to the point of irrelevance.
    I think you just made my point. TLJ, in its third act, isn’t going to explore the full impact of that reveal. That’s the job of the continuing narrative. And TROS certainly does deal with that concept, but in its own unrelated terms by shifting the source of that trauma.
    Luke believed his father was a good man because of a lie he was told. Rey believed her parents were good people because of a lie she told herself. Regardless of where that impression came from, the impact of uncovering the truth is the same.
     
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  4. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Alright, I have some time, so I'll get back to what I haven't addressed...assuming @eeprom hasn't addressed it either. (So...not a lot...)

    Vader himself had confirmed it, but Luke needed an outside, undeniable source to do so, yes. So you can win this part of the argument, but it helps solidify a point later on about Rey. Rey knew what her parents were going into TFA and TLJ. She was in denial, but she knew. Kylo simply gave voice to the truth. Kylo is the Yoda/Obi-Wan of this situation. He observed Rey's memories without the inherent bias Rey has, and saw the truth of the events. To retcon this - and to do so as shoddily as TROS did - not only undermines Rey's journey, but Kylo's validity.



    Luke was absolutely bereft of belonging! That just didn't factor into the twist above. Luke wanted to go on a grand adventure and escape his daily life. He wanted a cause to fight for, but was held back by obligation. Rey is very much the same. She lights up with joy at the thought of working with Han and exploring the galaxy. Her pure heart is what helps Finn and BB-8 out, and it's clear she wants to do more in her life. But her obligation (in her mind) to her family potentially coming back is what holds her back.

    Luke learned his father was an ace and Jedi at the same time. But the main difference between Luke and Rey is that Luke didn't say what he thought his parents were until after Obi-Wan told him the truth. It's not an initial assumption for us, the audience, because we didn't even know it was a thing until after we were given the original assumption. Heck, we as the audience knew something was up because Beru and Owen explicitly cleared us in on it.
    So, the Initial-Twist-Acceptance structure still works:



    @eeprom touched on this better than I could ever do already, so I'll let this point lie.
     
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  5. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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    This still doesn't discount what I posted above that Rey being a nobody was never to be the final answer in TLJ.



    The fact of the matter is that the person made a guess based on the evidence laid out in the film. As for Rey being a Kenobi, that would have been strange given the fact that Maz told Rey that the belonging she sought was ahead of her not behind her. If she had been a Kenobi that would have meant that she belonged all along. Not that the director or writer has to be consistent. Just look at the nature of Luke and Leia's relationship.





    ???







    That's not a plot twist.




    A plot twist usually involves the actions taking place at the same time. Like in The Usual Suspects. It also has to have the element of a surprise. in the PT (and CW) we are treated to the gradual change of Anakin into Vader.




    I'm not exactly sure what your implying here. But I guess we can just agree to disagree.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 10, 2021 at 12:34 AM, Original Post Date: Jun 9, 2021 at 11:45 PM ---


    You call it aggression. I call it acting like an overgrown brat with a weapon. The Vader in the OT comes across as a very dangerous and scary man. Anakin in the PT is just an incel angry child with a weapon. Let me put it to you this way. The Vader in the OT would scare me with or without force powers because I knew that if I crossed him he'd find a way to get me. Anakin in the PT, I would just stay out of his way, because he'd find someone else to bother. He was more annoying than scary.
     
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  6. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard

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    Rey is my favorite character of the ST, RJ killing Snoke and then JJ bringing Palapatine to replace him, for me solidified that there was no plan. Now this thread confirmed it. I liked the TLJ and really disliked the RotS. I've grown to like the ST much more but space horses makes me cringe, thousands of Star Destroyers makes me cringe.
    The PT isn't perfect but for me much better than the ST. Give me Anakin any day, new time line within the PT, better directors, new story I'm up for it, same goes for Rey and Finn. Those characters are great just give us a good story with cohesion.
     
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  7. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    You were implying that I was mistaken about what plot twists are, when I wasn't. I was responding to this:

    I wasn't confusing either. An inconsistency is having two Infinity Gauntlets but one is left-handed and the other right-handed, when there should only be one. Inconsistency is someone saying "ten years" instead of "eight years." An inconsistency is when someone is inconsistent, not revealing new information to the audience and a (or the) main character(s) that changes the trajectory of the story.


    If I'm interpreting you correctly (which isn't a guarantee), then that's not how plot twists always - or even usually - work. Anakin transitioning into Vader over the course of the PT & TCW/CW isn't a plot twist, it's an inevitability. It's dramatic irony, since the audience knows about it before the characters do, but it's FAR from a plot twist.

    Let's try looking at this another way:

    Say you're at a stoplight. You decide to change the music playing on your phone, so you look down. During that time, the light turns green, but you don't see it. However, the person in the passenger seat does. They try to get your attention, but it doesn't really work until a car behind you honks, or you look up. From there, you move forward. That is dramatic irony.

    Say you're at a stoplight. You decide to change the music playing on your phone, so you look down. During that time, the light turns green, but you don't see it. The person in the passenger seat doesn't see it either, because they're on their phone. A car behind you honks, or you look up. From there, you move forward. THAT is more like a plot twist.

    The two can work together - see Captain America: Civil War for the Rashomon-esque reveals of the Winter Soldier's flashback mission. But they are far from the same thing.


    In terms of plot twist usually involving the actions taking place at the same time...I don't think that's necessarily true. Take Seven for example - the actions of the plot twist (aka the stuffing of The Box) happened before the events in that scene. Or take Vader. Anakin became Darth Vader long before the revelation in ESB. The information was the plot twist in both, not the event itself. Or the ending of The Watchmen. Or the ending of the Sixth Sense.



    Which was actually my original point. It's not a plot twist, it's the dropping of a storyline for no other reason than inconsistency between two directors. I was arguing that one could see it as a plot twist in the sense that the romance plot between Rose and Finn was built up all throughout TLJ, and then was dropped like a hot potato in-between movies.

    Inconsistencies within this movie belie the notion of an overarching plan. Finn's romance with Rose was dropped, Poe had a backstory that completely contradicted his canon one up to that point (which the franchise then had to bend over backwards to justify), Kylo went from breaking his mask to reforging it for...reasons. These felt both inconsistent within the world, and inconsistent for the characters. There was no rhyme or reason for these changes. There was no plan.

    Except it DOES. The point was that "Rey Nobody" was Rian's answer. He put it in the movie, he stood by it in interviews afterwards, he talks about how he even came to that answer. It's his answer. The only reason Rian never said it was the final answer (but it was HIS final answer) was because he was aware that his movie was the second in a trilogy. The door wasn't left open because Rian wanted to leave it open - it was left open because it wasn't locked. Even the original ending to the trilogy in Colin Trevorrow's plans didn't have Rey as a Palpatine.

    I mean, that's far more like Kylo than Anakin. Anakin got the girl. Anakin at least has the excuse of poor parenting by the Jedi and Obi-Wan (who really shouldn't have raised him). Kylo had two loving, if distant parents, a solid relationship with someone he could have - and should have - told his burdens to, and peers his age. Anakin blossomed in a time of war, when morals greyed to the point of heroes looking like villains at times. Kylo grew up in a time of peace. Anakin, even when he decided to betray the Order, still listened to both Palpatine and Mace. Kylo really didn't.

    So does her being a Palpatine. The issue then isn't about belonging to a story, but which side you choose within the story you already belong to. Those are two VASTLY different stories, and trying to implement them both led to the failure of both, quite frankly.

    Luke and Leia's relationship at least had some build-up in ESB. Yoda tells Ben (and therefore the audience) that "there is another." We see Luke call out to Leia, and Leia respond with information she shouldn't know just yet. When we get to the reveal in ROTJ, it feels post-dictable, if a little jarring. But it fits. Rey Palpatine doesn't work like this. Rey is told she's a nobody, with no hints that she is related to Palpatine (her susceptibility to the Dark Side has nothing to do with her bloodline in the context of the information given in TLJ. It's simply her character and there to further contrast Ben. Ben is someone called to the Light but chooses the Darkness. So the The Force chose Rey, someone who has the Dark call to her, as its chosen champion of the Light). It directly contrasts information given just then.

    I mean, Maz telling Rey that the belonging she sought was ahead and not behind doesn't give away much of anything. Why would that interfere with Rey being a Kenobi?
     
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  8. Viper78

    Viper78 Rebel Official

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    The difference is that Anakin in PT was a young Jedi up until he was manipulated to the dark side by Palpatine and like I said before, slaughtering a tribe of Tusken Raiders and executing Dooku are acts of aggression so there were signs of what he would eventually become. As Vader in the OT he was Sith, full of hate with two decades of training from Palpatine.

    They are essentially two very different people.
     
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