JJ Abrams Says Ep 8 Haters May Be Threatened By Women

@Sparafucile
That is what I was trying to say.

SW is full of strong female characters the fandom loves.
So I don't think the problem is strong female characters.
Because it never was .

 

I think people's familiarity with narrative tropes and the more widespread use of the internet today may also be factors.

Yeah that didn't happen.

First she struck him from behind unawares.
Then he toyed around with her and slapped her on the back of her head.
Then he disarmed her and threw her weapon away.
Then she pulled a light saber out ("that was a cheap shot") and Luke backed down.

 

About Anakin in ep. I, the big difference is that whitin the contex of that movie... Anakin is
presented as someone special.
He's not an ordinary Force sensitive kid.
He was born from a Virgin, he's the Chosen One, etc...
So his abilities - even before any kind of training - had an explaination.
GL cared about that...

We may not like that explaination, but again in the context of that movie
(and of the 6 movies) it makes sense.

EDIT: And truth to be told, it's not that he performed in that movie mind tricks, that
he engaged a lightsaber duel, or such things (same with Luke in IV).
The extraordinary things he does are all linked to his pilonting skills.
He is a particularly gifted pilot because - as Qui Gon says - he foresees events and that
because he is special human being as all the movie tells us.
And if we think about it, it's "almost" the same with Luke in IV.
We see Luke "using the force" in IV during the attack to the Death Star. Again, he's a gifted pilot.
But he's 19, not 9 years old as his father was in ep. I. And that age gap adds points to the notion
that Anakin was "special", because he's the Chosen One.

 

But there are a good number of women and people of color who also dislike "The Last Jedi" . So Abrams' explanation that all of the film's "haters" are those who feel threatened by women does not make any sense to me.

 

Good, because he never said any such thing.

All he said was:

“If you are someone who feels threatened by women and needs to lash out against them, you can probably find an enemy in ‘Star Wars.’

If you don't feel threatened by women you can be assured JJ wasn't referring to you.

 

@Moral Hazard

lol, I'll try, here goes.

I don't think JJ's comment is completely misrepresented. By giving voice to that, there is an implication that the dislike of TLJ is at least partially (perhaps even largely) a gender related issue. I don't think it is. The way he coins it makes it sound like a relatively large number (otherwise, why bother addressing it at all). Now if it was someone in these forums I'd probably give them the benefit of the doubt and say they simply worded it wrong, but most of these interviews are scripted or they at least have a general idea of what is going to be asked to have a basic foundation for their answer. So I think JJ truly has a belief that sexism, misogyny, has a strong (or at least significant) influence on the dislike of TLJ. I strongly disagree and find the suggestion offensive. He's starting to enter Ghostbusters territory by attacking the fandom, and that's not good. It's not good for SW, it's not good for the ST and it's not good for the divisiveness that has already been caused by TLJ. But that's just my opinion and it's fine if you disagree. But I think comments like that can do more harm than the movie itself.

I can live with a movie I don't like and move on and watch the next one hoping I like it. However, accusing fans of misogyny, regardless of the implied amount (which is vague), is not good form. It now starts to go beyond disagreeing with story, character, plot, flow, tone decisions and becoming more ideological as well as personal.

 

Exactly like Ahsoka (a fan favorite by all genders), Hera, Sabine, Jyn and of course our always beloved Leia.

 

Thanks for taking the time to provide a sensible explanation @Sparafucile.

My logic was similar but different: I see a clickbait headline with multiple two word quotations and suspect he may have been goaded into making a comment!
I'm left wondering if his PR advisors start shaking their heads as soon as he's responding or if it's another case of any publicity is good publicity.

Fair enough. You come across as a reasonable poster so I was a little concerned I may have missed something big.

I guess it's not my place to defend his comments anyway. Maybe the last thing the internet needs is another underinformed voice struggling to gain perspective through the memes, cultures and second-hand sensationalism that is popular internet culture.

 

Actually it makes as much sense as Rey. She's gifted and it was explained in TFA and TLJ both. The force is something that lives inside everyone nd the ability to wield it can be harnessed by anyone, not just by those of a certain bloodline. So people may not like the explanation but in context it makes sense. The biggest gripe is because she isn't related to the Skywalkers, Kenobi, Palpatine,etc if she was then some would just be elated and happy and never be bothered.

 

J.J. Abrams Continues Self-Destruction of Star Wars Franchise

 

Yeah but, she's pretty much the main focus of the ST which is supposed to be a continuation of the Skywalker saga so her not being one is something of an issue.

 

Uhm yeah, I can name you 6 times in the OT when Luke would have died without help. Not to mention how he never won a duell until the very end of the saga and how he was a whiny, little b*tch throughout the movies. Anakain was the CHOSEN one. He had to be a Gary Stu in terms of power and abilities(even though I wouldn't call a child murderer Gary Stu but that's just me). Rey is a normal Jedi. She should be like Ahsoka Tano or Depa Billaba, with average powers and a flawed personality to make her relateable. There's neither an explaination nor the need for her to be this powerful.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 18, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 18, 2018 ---

Yeah but it is a nobrainer that Rey cannot defeat Luke. After all she isn't even a Padawan and he is a master! Being overpowered doesn't mean that you have to win at everything. Anakin failed pretty often too but he is still overpowered. Overpowered means that Rey's few negative actions never have a lasting negative effect thus making them lose all dramatic impact. The way how this scene should have ended is by Rey hurting Luke with the lightsaber before backing off, shocked about her lack of selfcontrol and her arrogance. It would have shown how quickly Rey taps into the dark side of the force (something that was mentioned but never brought up again throughout the movie) and added a flaw to her "too good to be true personality". It would have been an interesting conflict but nah, can't have that with Rey. A lot of missed potential in that scene if you ask me.

 

Not true. The ST is not about the Skywalkers. She is the main focus, yes, and ST is about new characters.

 

You can think all you want, but there's no doubt his comment is misrepresented. JJ gives an answer to a simple question. You can think the Earth is flat, but it's not.

Now you can reason that he shouldn't have answered the question because the press twists the truth, but a vow of silence is the only solution for that issue.

 

I think its also worth noting that Annakin did get ridiclous amounts of criticism after the Phantom Menace, granted it was mainly down to dialogue and acting though, people didnt really spend much time discussing his force powers becuase its hard to think about that when you've just seen him blow up the droid command ship by accident in what is still by a million miles the worse sequence in Star Wars, and im saying that as a prequel defender. So peoples concentration was more on the performance rather then his force powers.

So for me its all about context, im not really Rey is a Mary Sue subscriber, i think they have just barely given us enough to justify her abilities, (my issues are are more with Kylo as i dont think they have made him look any were near strong enough to justify the "light rising to meat the dark" story line as the only real strong thing we've seen him do in two films is stop that blaster bolt, but sorry i'm getting of topic), But the Rey so powerful thing doesn't really bother me, but i understand the argument i mean we've never really seen sone one go from having no real force powers to been able to use mind control tricks duel with laser swords and lift rocks without any training.

• When we meet Luke he has no power and you get a tiny bit in the of progression in a New Hope were he blocks a blaster shot on the Millennium Falcon and then trust in Obi Wan while shooting at the death Star, then you see a bit more progression in Empire were he had learned to reach out and control it enough to lift a light sabre with a lot of concentration and see Obi Wan in a kind of hallucinating sort of state then he gets a bit of training from yoda and we go from there
• When we meet Anakin it is quickly established that he already has some kind of force powers "jedi like reflexes" higher midiclorion count then even master Yoda. but even then we don't see him lifting loads of rocks or mind tricking people before he has any training, in-fact we dont really see him have any kind of Jedi powers except maybe faster reflexes untill Attack of the Clones, and then build him up to be even more powerful In Revenge of the Sith
• WIth Rey we are introduced her and their isn't really a strong hint she has any kind of force powers till she hears the call of lightsabre and has the force vision. Plus as we kow now it is very unlikly she had any kind of Jedi Training as a kid as her parents where junkers. so we have to assume thats her first big introduction to the force, from then we see her suddenly realise she can use the force to controls peoples minds and then trust in the force to defeat Kylo in a lightsabre duel. The the Following film where the only training we have see her have is to expand her mind to feel the force and thats it and from their she duels the emperors guards and lift a massive pile of Rocks.

So for me Rey's arc does seem a bit inconsistent with what we have seen in the first two trilogies with Luke and Anakin and even to an extent with Ezra in Rebels. but like i said their has just about been enough to justify it on screen, I mean we heard the force lightsabre call out to her, so maybe that awoke something in her ("something that has always been there") and im sure everyone has heard Jedi could use mind trick so she used that new sense to try and it worked, then she went back to the force when she was battling kylo and it worked again. We know she was already quite a dangerous fighter from the scene she takes down the guys trying to take BB8 in the force awakens so that sort of explains the throne room scene fight, and as they have established she has incredible Raw power so she managed to lift the Rocks we less training then Luke or Anakin. Its a bit weak granted but like i said they have just barely done enough to justify her power and 100% should of been done better. It also does feel a little rushed though, and like so many things with this trilodgy it just feels a bit like the directors have gone we want this to be happening at this point so thats what going to happen whether their is much on screen justification on screen or not.

So while i don't really go along with the Mary Sue argument i understand why many do, and i think its ridiculous to write off their criticism by playing the sexism card, which i don't think JJ was a 100% doing, but has since been used by others to try and write off the criticism in that way.

 

Go look at at the comments directed toward RJ on twitter. It's a common thread in many of the horrible things people have said RJ and to KK. We've even seen a bit of it here in the Mary Sue debate. There's most definitely a sexist Star Wars fans group who is upset with the film. That's why JJ was asked about it and that's why he answered the question.

 

what if i just feel threated by some women?

 

Yeah I didn't really intend for that comment to be interpreted in the Mary Sue context but thats cool!
I was just being an pedantic internet nerd and calling out the claim that Rey beat Luke in the melee battle.

I don't feel strongly about the Mary Sue stuff or ranking character powers these days.
As long as there's some weakness (emotional or physical) that can be skillfully exploited for dramatic necessity I'm happy.

I absolutely get a dark side tapping vibe from that scene anyway.

Rey is really aggressive there - she loses it at the guy who storms her bedroom and isn't playing straight with her.
She king hits him and you get that lovely low angle shot from Luke's POV looking up at her with her shoulders all squared.
She stands over him - it's time for her own interrogation.
After he owns her in their stick fight she rage calls her saber before calming down.

Even Luke gives flashes of that classic Skywalker rage.
He explodes her house, practically screams at her to leave his island, and tries to extract himself to keep cool.

I love that scene. (obviously)
They both feel a righteous anger at their betrayal by the other.
It's one of those tiffs that results in real honesty - Rey forces Luke to revisit his painful truth.
It's also a little tragic in that it's the last memory she has of Luke alive - this broken man snivelling in the rain.

She scars him emotionally. Enough to send him into a nervous breakdown and want to burn it all.
It's only Yoda who manages to turn it into a nervous break-through!

 

This direction wouldn't make sense for Rey. It was Luke who feared Rey's power. He feared Rey's power because of Ben. The Skywalkers have a problem being seduced by the dark side so that was a natural part of Luke's arc in the OT and why he would fear Ben and then Rey. I don't sense that Rey has that problem and it hasn't been a part of her story. When given the choice she's always done the right thing. She's an optimist by nature. That's her character. It's also why she's so devastated when Luke rejects her. It's not a surprise she sees good in Ben Solo. She's an optimist.

Hurting Luke wouldn't be in her character.

 

No doubt there are misogynist fanatics on the internet ranting on about RJ an KK. Nobody denies that. The question is are they a substantial amount of the haters or just a tiny vocal minority. As long as you can't prove the extend of all the hate it is baseless and thus ridiculous using it as an argument to explain negative ratings. I would also like to add how to this day people have no problem bashing young Jake Lloyd for his portrayal of Anakin. RJ and Daisy Ridley are adults, they can deal with a couple of trolls. But Jake was bashed by the media and fans alike when he wasn't even 10 years old.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 18, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 18, 2018 ---

I beg your pardon we have seen her beat up a lot of characters over the course of the movie, including Finn. She's a scavenger who grew up uoutside of a functionign society and we know that she gives in to the dark side easily (we are told so at least). Of course she wouldn't hurt Luke in a clear state of mind but we are talking about a Rey frustrated with Luke's refusal to help her. If being aggressive was out of character she wouldn't even have started the fight in the first place. I would have preferred it if she had wounded Luke to a degree that made it impossible for him to leave Anch-To and fight Kylo Ren. It would have eliminated a couple of things people were criticizing about the movie:

a) We're told that Rey gives in to the dark easily but she never shows any sings of this in the movie => losing her cool to a degree where she accidentally hurts Luke would obviously eliminate this criticism
b) Rey is too good to be true => quite obviously not anymore
c) Luke was a coward because he didn't leave Anch-To and face Kylo in person => he couldn't Rey has wounded him too severely. Therefore he chose forceprojection
d) why did Luke die? => he was injured and using the force when he was already in a bad shape was obviously too much for him.