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JJ presents OT heroes like loosers, here is why:

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by João Woo, Dec 20, 2015.

  1. João Woo

    João Woo Clone

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    First I like to say this is tough but I cant stop think from this point of view,,, I'm not a JJ's hater. I like a lot his homage to Spielberg in Super8 and I've been waiting for his homage to George Lucas and to us , fans that have been waiting 30 years to see our heroes back on silverscreen. TFA has awesome scenes and true designs but felt for me very depressing towards OT heroes....tell me what u guys think?

    1) LEIA- She is not a Princess anymore now she looks a tired general struggling in a never end war . Results that she didnt have time to love their children, letting his son destroyed a new Jedi Order (this is heavy!) and killed his own father and love Han Solo (very heavy) . She maybe even not remenber his daughter who was abandoned just like Luke. Why a mother let this tragedy happened again in her family ? she knows who her grandpa was, take care well of that kids

    2) LUKE - Oh man how I waited to see Luke again, but until now we watched a sad man standing alone on a cliff. Why he had to be like Obi Wan or Yoda, He have to be a faded Jedi once again to be a mentor?
    JJ failed for me in that close up, very very plain. I didnt feel a mystique in that scene. Luke is suffering cause he saw his spoiled nephew wipe out his new Jedi Order, this is so sad and such a feeling. I was not expecting to see my all time hero in a situation like that, after all he is training, his father redemption and all the fallen of Jedis in Clone Wars. What? Jedi can not stand the darkside once again thatsit ?
    WTF JJ

    3) CHEWIE- he felt so sad by the end of the movie and he even get shot, I think twice?. A tall and legendary wookie been carried by Finn or Rey is some takes . It felt a lil bit weird

    4) HAN- OMG we could see a 100% Han Solo's swag back on the screen. But he is still in his same bizness he didn progresss as a MAN as character...stilll smuglering blast but now he has 60 years old..and he lost the Falcon, he lost his sons, he lost his love, his friend...and he get killed by his OWN spoiled son, a son that could be his co-pilot at the Falcon. He ofering Rey (maybe his daughter) a job at Falcon is so lovely but you can sense a man that lost his acomplishments in this universe.

    5) Admiral Ackbar - deservers more takes and more rank. Why the resistance doesnt have cruisers on TFA?

    6) C3PO and R2D2- the scene is incredible when C3PO interupts HAn and Leia. But that is it, then he smashed hard R2 in the face( he has this temper in OT? It was Anthony Daniel's temper ?).
    R2D2 is powered off , waiting to get he right moment of the Force to turn on .But it is very bad executed by JJ. It could be something meaningful like the flower of E.T getting back to life.

    BUT I LOVE THE NEW PLAYERS. IM IN LOVE WITH REY. FINN IS A TRUE REBEL.
    BB8 IS GREAT STANDARD FOR SW DESIGNS.

    AND KYLO CAN BE A COMPLEX CHARACTER FOR SOME BUT FOR ME HE IS KYLO RAT
     
    #1 João Woo, Dec 20, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2015
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  2. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Losers*
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 20, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 20, 2015 ---
    Loser *
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 20, 2015 ---
    Loser*
     
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  3. João Woo

    João Woo Clone

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  4. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Rebel Official

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    Weight has nothing to do with it.
    maxresdefault.jpg
     
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  5. Commodore

    Commodore Rebel Trooper

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    Leia was the princess of Alderaan, not by blood, but by virtue of her adoption. Alderaan was destroyed over thirty years ago. In the abscence of Alderaan, Leia became a senator for a time, and later became a general in the Resistance. It seems like logical character progression, unless we specifically wanted Leia to be the leader of the free galaxy.

    With Luke, we are seeing the re-telling of a familiar story. We don't know the specifics of why he went into seclusion in much the same manner as Yoda, but we can assume that it must have been for a very good reason.

    Totally agree about Chewbacca. It kind of felt like he was there for comic relief, to get shot at so other people didn't have to be, and to make the final scene with Han Solo more dramatic.

    Han Solo has definitely lost a lot, and I think that is why he turns to smuggling again. It as much a distraction as it is a living.
     
  6. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    They were losers. That's why we loved them.
     
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  7. Commodore

    Commodore Rebel Trooper

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    The Losers' Club.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Count dooku

    Count dooku Rebel General

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    great post
     
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  9. PartialMitch

    PartialMitch Rebel Trooper

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    I honestly don't understand any of your complaints.

    Leia has always been a military leader (she briefed and gave orders to the Rebellion throughout the OT, especially in Empire), and she has always carried the burden of responsibility for society as a whole. Remember that (in ANH) she wouldn't even sell out the Rebellion to save her entire home planet; she lied about the location of the Rebel base, almost ensuring retribution against Alderaan ... but she had to do it, because her responsibility was to the galaxy, not even just her home world. That hasn't changed. Snoke had been trying to seduce Ben since childhood ... that is the reason she sent her son to Luke's academy in the first place. She didn't "let this tragedy happen," she tried to stop it but could not. Good guys don't always win.

    We don't know the full story of Luke or how the academy was destroyed. We don't really even know why Luke went into exile. I was disappointed when the rumors began that he'd only be in the final scene. Luke is by far my favorite SW character. But now that I've seen it, I am fine with it. The entire point of the movie was the search for Luke. Showing up earlier would only muddle the plot. In any case, we can't judge his actions yet; we don't have enough information. But we need to keep in mind that one of the most important things he experienced during the OT was learning that rushing into action is not the Jedi way. Sometimes the greater good demands that we turn our backs on our own desires. For example, Luke is the last Jedi Master. That alone is enough reason for him to go into hiding. If he tried to fight the First Order, he might win ... or he might die, and the Jedi would be extinct forever. It is his responsibility to pass on what he knows, and he cannot do that by fighting a war. So he had to flee and wait for the Force to guide the next generation of Jedi to his door. This is very much in line with what Yoda taught Luke in ESB.

    Personally, I think that the Jedi during the prequels were flawed, and it was a mistake for them to be drawn into the Clone Wars ("We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers," said Master Windu). Their stagnation and the corrupting influence of war tainted them and helped unbalance the Force. The old Jedi failed by trying to be something that they were not meant to be. Luke, however, is doing it right. Or, to put it another way: Leia's responsibility is to galactic civilization; Han's responsibility is to his loved ones; Luke's responsibility is to the Force.

    Chewie was Chewie. Brave and kind of funny, like always. His injury worked in the story because it gave the newbies an opportunity to really win Han's affection. And I loved his reaction to Han's death. No hesitation. Just start attacking. It did strike me as odd that he didn't rush to Leia once they returned to the base, but grief is a weird thing. He seemed withdrawn and sullen, and that makes sense given the fact that his brother just died.

    Han showed a lot of progress as a man. Yeah, he still had that old scoundrel charm, but he was obviously older wiser and tempered by a life of struggle. Running back to smuggling seemed very much in-character after such a loss. In the old EU novels, Han did the exact same thing following the death of Chewbacca. It is natural to retreat to the familiar after a tragedy. His family had been torn apart, so he ran back to the old "happy" life he once had. It didn't work, and you could tell. In the end, he died trying to save his child, demonstrating his growth as a character, love as a parent and courage as a man.

    Akbar deserves more rank? What naval rank is above Admiral?? As far as deserving more screentime ... nah. He was a bit role, unimportant to the plot and included mostly for verisimilitude. Also, I think the Resistance lacks heavy firepower due to their status as an underground, unofficial organization. Though it is possible that we've just not seen larger ships yet. There were no Rebel capital ships in ANH, either.

    Threepio hit and berated Artoo frequently in the OT ("You'll be malfunctioning within a day, you near-sighted scrap pile." *kicks Artoo*), so his "temper" is nothing new. The Artoo awakening was a little odd, I'll give you that. But Threepio did say that Artoo was in "low-power mode" not completely shut down, so I just assumed that Artoo noticed BB-8 and the map and decided to return to full power.

    And as far as Kylo goes ... well, I think he's one of the most interesting characters in all of Star Wars. You're free to disagree, though.
     
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  10. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    I am 100% with you as this is one of the main reasons of why I disliked TFA. JJ did indeed turn our OT heros into all time failures even if many fans try to deny this. As I have said so many times before, Luke was THE RETURN OF THE JEDI and he was an awesome hero that would do anything for those he loved. TFA gave us a Luke that was a washed up loser who gave up on everything when he was needed the most. He failed as a Jedi Master, he failed as a friend and he failed as an uncle. Han and Leia failed as both parents and as a couple and everything the Rebelion fought so hard for was turned into a big time failure as well as they sacrificed so much to topple the Empire just so that a new Empire clone would pop out of nowhere and put them in an even worst spot than the Empire had put them.

    I waited so many years to see Luke as the awesome Jedi Master that the EU always made him be and what I got was a quitter who turned tail and ran and what bugs me most is when fans try to justify his actions by saying that we still don't know what he's doing there in the island as he is searching for the first Jedi temple. So what? Kylo Ren and Snoke were his problem as well and all Luke did was turn tail and run and now Han is dead because of that. Who cares if Luke finds said temple. Will it bring back Han? Will it restore all the planets that Starkiller destroyed? He should have been there dealing with his problems instead of letting others have to deal with them.

    While I greatly love the PT, one of the things that bothered me alot was in the way Yoda turned tail and ran when he couldn't defeat Sheev. Had Yoda not run and stayed and fought bravely like Kanan and Ahsoka, I'm sure many things would have been different but he just ran like a coward and TFA made Luke do exactly the same. Luke was an awesome character who was willing to risk it all for his friends. He abandoned his training and even faced Vader knowing he was clearly outmatched just for the love of his friends. He then risked much in a crazy plan in order to save Han from Jabba as well and he risked the Emperor's rath to save his father. Luke would do whatever needed to be done for those he loved and it's hard to swallow that he would abandon all his loved ones just because of what Kylo did.

    And people, if you are going to blast my post with dislikes and disagrees like you did the OP, at least have the courtesy of letting me know why you disagree cause It's easy to fill others posts with negative quotes but why not justify said quotes by debating your points to see if they are valid.
     
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  11. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    I dont have any problem with the representation of OT characters in TFA. As much as people accusing JJ with too much fan pandering and rehash, he actually had the guts to change the overly happy EU version to one which the audience isnt necessarily and instantly comfortable with. If there was a "Mary Sue" in Star Wars it was EU Luke Skywalker. Im glad he chose a different path...
    JJ turned the story on a way which is more similar to real life, where things are rather unpredictable and new challenges can always occur...
    Just look at world war one for instance. People thought that things cant get worse after unprecedentedly bloody and devastaing war. Just to expreience an even greater deveastation in just two decades later... Were the efforts of the brave ww1 french soliders tarnished in ww2? Ofc not.

    About character developement... Character arcs, character developements are artificial literary tools to connect the audience with the characters in order not to make them boring and/or give a satisfying story. But in real life people dont necessarily change that much.
    The efforst of the Rebellion were not tarnished. They just have to face another one. The enemy did not dissappear, they just fled to lick their wounds and gather their strength.

    Han Solo imo changes a lot. Yes, he returned to his old profession, but he is a different person than his OT self. He's more calm, earnest. He became a mentor figure instead of a selfish smuggler. And he risked everything in order to redeem his son. There is nothing braver than that imo.

    Similar to Leia. I've always imagined her as some kind of major leader or politican. Although I think we havent seen enough of her new character yet.

    As for Luke, we dont know what happened yet. But even if he failed at everything, it wouldn't tarnish the character imo. He just simply needs to face completely new challenges and his life might not turned out to be the happy ending as the EU suggested. Sometimes we fall, sometimes we rise. That is just how things work.

    Its hard to me to grasp the idea that people hate the character changes of TFA, but like the PT ones.
    Imo it was the PT which completely tarnished every OT character, ideal and even the morals.
    The jedi used to be mystical warriors of an ancient religion. The guardians of peace and justice before the PT. And what did we get? Celebrities living in the middle of the fckin capital of the galaxy... A bunch of useless idiots who (10.000 of them!!!) couldn't see a sith lord emering in the front of their eyes, who didnt do anything besides sitting in circles and crying about how clouded they are all day... Guardians of justice and piece who dont care about slavery and injustice (Qui-gon didnt even blink his eyes when Anakin told him he was a slave). Guardians of peace and justice who accept the mass production of living human beeings brainwashed and literally bread to live a short life to fight in their wars...

    Master Yoda, who used to be the wise teacher... only to realise he was a fool who let Sidious become a dictator and the Republic to fall. The master who thought us about how size dosent matter, and how wars not make one great, only to find out that he had to constantly jump like an idiot to reach his enemy with his utterly ridiculous mini lightsaber...

    Darth Vader who used to be a menacing leader, a cold, silent, but efficient dark warrior who was tragically seduced to the dark side... only to find out he used to be Justin Bieber who was tricked to the dark side in one of the most unconvincing, rushed character arcs ever put on the big screen...

    And so on. I could be going on, but I think you got my point.
    While TFA only challenged the characters, the PT tarnished them imo. But TFA already patched some of the wounds left of Star Wars. Luke, the jedi and the force is misterious again. The lightsaber is back on its original dignity after the PT overused them. And overal there is adventure, excitement, drama and characters we (or at least I) care about again, after the prequels turned Star Wars into a blank, boring artificial and fake looking, uninspiring mess.
     
    #11 General_Tarkin, Dec 3, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
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  12. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    I don't agree with some of the points you make my friend. Let's see what the movies gave us and not personal opinions. You say Luke was a Mary Sue and not Rey. Well let's see, Luke was a kid that was very imperfect and he failed at many things. He was a crybaby to start it off. Even being a great pilot, Luke would have been shot down by Vader if it wasn't for Han saving his butt and then he was shot down in the battle of Hoth. When he went to train as a Jedi with the greatest Jedi Master there was, he failed to get the X-Wing out of the swamp, he failed in his trial at the cave, he was scolded by Yoda a few times and he failed to complete his training. He then went off to battle Vader and his failure in said battle cost him his arm. He underestimated Jabba by trying to use mind control on him and that almost got him eaten and then he underestimated the Emperor and his failure almost cost him his life if it weren't for his father. Then there's Rey. A girl abandoned in a desert planet who just happened to be perfect at everything. Rey was a perfect fighter, mechanic, scavenger and pilot. She understood droids perfectly and she understood Chewie as well. First time she pilots the Falcon and she did it better then Han himself and she even thought him a thing or two about repairs ON HIS OWN SHIP. Rey had thought the Force was just a myth and in no time Rey learned on the fly what it took Luke three movies to do. She pulled out thoughts of a traind Dark Jedi, she used mind powers on a Stormtrooper and gave him three different commands, she beat a trained Dark Jedi in a Force pull battle and then she used the Force to pump her up to win a battle that she was losing. I don't know about you my friend but you can't get any more Mary Sue than that.

    You also say that JJ turned the movie into a more lifelike situation. Well, the thing about a space fantasy is that while it doesn't bother me to see realistic scenarios to a certain degree, it's really not fun if we are going to go overboard with it. So if real life gives us messed up marriges and stuff like that we have to see it in SW too? I don't know about you, but I don't want to get to the point where I have to see Rey working for a pimp or Poe crashing his X-Wing into a house full of innocent Rodians because he became a drug addict and he was flying his ship while under the influence. That Leia and Han failed at one thing or the other? Sure, I can live with that. That something went sour with Luke's Jedi academy? Yeah it happened a few times in the EU too but our OT heros and the Rebelion as a whole had to fail at EVERYTHING they fought so hard for just so that we can say it's realistic? That's stretching it a bit.

    Now on your comments about the PT messing many things up, there I agree with you 100%. Just because I love the movies doesn't mean I find said movies flawless my friend as I myself have argued about how the PT tarnished the vision that the OT gave us about the Jedi. Yoda was shown as a sore looser and the Jedi were a group of dorks that saw things in black or white and nothing more. You can like TFA my friend but you can't deny that it had lots of flaws cause as I said before, I love the PT but it had lots of things that I consider flaws and I don't even think I have to go on much about Jar Jar and sand. We don't have to try to make a movie perfect in our eyes just because I we like it.
     
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  13. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    While I understand that when you watch TFA, the OT heroes do come off as losers, I think fans are missing the bigger themes of the movies. The way I see the SW movies is 'Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.."

    This is a theme that is prevailent in every SW movie, and also a theme in everyday life that our world leaders, politicans, and even citizens never seem to grasp. So I wouldn't call Luke, Leia, and Han losers, I would just say that they are ignoring history and thinking they can lead normal lives despite having Jedi Powers.

    So if you take a step back once ROTJ ends, we all wanted Han & Leia to get married and have kids and live happily ever after. The problem is that when you have a kid that is born with those type of Jedi powers, there is a chance that history will repeat itself and he or she will turn to the darkside. So we were just as guilty for rooting Han and Leia on to living happily ever after, because they were rolling the dice having a kid or kids. This eventually led to the end of their marriage, the estrangement of their son, and eventually the death of Han.

    As for Luke starting a Jedi Academy, isn't that what we all thought after ROTJ? Heck, even Yoda told him to pass on what you have learned on his death bed, kind of the same way QuiGon told Kenobi to train Anakin. And how did that work out? Well, Luke did what we all envisioned after 1983, but there was a chance that someone would turn to the darkside and take out the Jedi order like Anakin in ROTS.

    So my main theme of the SW movies that is rarely talked about is that the Force is dangerous in many ways. While yes it makes powerful heroes like Luke, Rey and Obiwan, etc it also makes powerful villains like Anakin, Palpatine, Kylo Ren, etc. The Force is a metaphor as it will always be an ongoing struggle between good and bad.

    So while we all wanted Luke, Leia and Han to live happily ever after during that celebration on Endor in ROTJ, they didn't become losers. They failed to recognize history, and fell in the same trap as their predecessors. This happens everyday in our lives with War, Religion, Race, etc, and we are just seeing it in a GFFA too.
     
  14. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    Sorry, but there is a misunderstanding there. I did not say Luke was a Mary Sue and Rey wasnt. What I said was that EXPANDED UNIVERSE Luke Skywalker was the ultimate Mary Sue and JJ changed that to a Luke who isnt perfect and went into hiding (for unkown reason yet though).
    I didnt say that either, I was just merely pointing out that the route he chose was a bit more real-life like on contrary with the EU where everyone is happy and things went on incredibly predictible (with a few exceptions ofc).
     
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  15. PrequelsRebron

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    Problem was that Han KNEW that his son was an evil villain with the New order and seduced by Snoke, and he's just going about his business ????

    That is silly......

    Han would INSTANTLY try to save his son...He wouldnt just say "well, Chewie, Ben went to the dark side...oh well, lets get these rathtars". He would be going full force toward bringing Ben back.

    It just seems out of character to me.
     
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  16. Chowdahead

    Chowdahead Rebel General

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    If Luke stayed out of the events of TFA because of sorrow, guilt, fear, etc, it is 110% a break in character. id go as far as to call it character assassination. The only way this plot point works is if Luke is on Ahch To protecting something and thus cannot leave.
     
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  17. FastestKnight

    FastestKnight Force Sensitive

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    Well, they said that Luke was looking for the First Jedi Temple. But come on, "character assassination"? I think you're overreacting a little bit.

    Even Yoda retired himself because of Sidious.

    Let's see what happens in Episode 8.
     
  18. PrequelsRebron

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    I concur....

    These writers are breaking characters big time.....

    So there is a new Sith out there, Snoke, and he turned Ben Solo to the dark side, which thus killed all the Jedi. And so I'm suppose to believe Han is just crusing looking for the Falcon and Luke just said, well, that sucked, I think I'm going to go home now and chill.

    The REAL characters would absolutely be all over the battle against the First Order. Instead, Leia is the only one going after them ? So Han, Luke, Leia - Leia is the only one doing the correct thing ????
     
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  19. Bosc

    Bosc Force Attuned

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    I feel that doesn't give justice to character portrayals in TFA. I think Han's motivations throughout the movie were very well demonstrated, and we frankly don't know anything about Snoke and Kylo to be able to judge their actions much at all. And Luke is another mystery to top it all off. We don't know what he's doing there and why he's doing it. If we actually get answers, then we might be able to say what's in character or not, but for now it's all mystery. And it's precisely these kinds of mysteries they wanted to leave us with.
     
  20. PrequelsRebron

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    So we got an incomplete movie ?

    I'm not okay with giving us an incomplete film.......

    If that is the argument that its okay that TFA can give us an incomplete film - then how come Prometheus doesn't get a pass ?? instead, ppl just labelled that as a bad film. Double standard.
     
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