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Kylo, caring son or master manipulator?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Sep 26, 2018.

  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    It seems my take on events in TFA and TLJ may not be the norm, especially concerning Kylo.

    Though I'll admit in TFA on the spot I assumed Kylo might be good and redeemable at some point, I've realized my opinion has subconsciously shifted since seeing both TLJ and TFA. I haven't read the novelizations, so possibly with that extra info, someone could "prove" me wrong.

    I don't believe Kylo is good or redeemable. I see him as a budding Sidious type. Dark side, manipulation, evil because he craves power or control over others.

    I don't think he struggled to kill Han, I think he played it like he did to draw Han in. Think about it, if Kylo was in a rage at seeing his dad and foaming at the mouth like at the end of TLJ when first seeing Luke, would Han have approached him? As soon as I saw Kylo in control, I knew something was up. I knew Han was going to die. I just felt there and then that Kylo was manipulating Han to draw him near. To prove to Snoke his evilness, he couldn't just kill his father from a distance, he needed to do it intimately.

    One might argue that Snoke felt that this would challenge Kylo. I say Kylo was already displaying an ability to manipulate Snoke.

    You might say he was tempted by the light. I say his rejection of the light makes him all the more evil.

    His frustration at the rejection of Rey has nothing to do with the hurt boy who just wants to be loved. It's Sidious/Anakin all over again, but more drastic. Sidious managed to fool Anakin without Anakin knowing Sidious was a Sith. Kylo is trying to turn Rey with her full knowledge of what he is, but him just giving Rey the tiniest glimmer of hope to draw her near.

    Maybe Kylo can't beat Rey in a lightsaber duel, but maybe that isn't Kylo's long term plan. Rey feels confidant around Kylo because she's at least his equal, and likely more. Rey is drawn to bring out the good in Kylo, just as Luke did to his father, but her peril isn't Kylo's menacing lightsaber, it's his manipulation.

    Rey has struck Kylo in the battles, but Kylo has dented Rey's resolve in the war. Kylo's playing the long game, he's playing chess while Rey is playing checkers.

    Maybe we're not witnessing merely a physical fight, but much like Vader in ESB, it's also a battle of wits. In this way, maybe naïve Rey is slowly being drawn in. She closes the door on him at the end of TLJ, but will she really give up on the light she believes resides inside of Kylo?
     
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  2. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    JJ once called him a villain in the making. RJ finished his journey to the big bad. => The villain (Kylo) has to kill the opressor (Snoke) to become the opressor himself. Now Kylo is the opressor. From here on there is only the way back down (or up ;D). Hence redemption.

    He did. A lot actually. It's mentionend in the novel and the script. Furthermore JJ mentioned in the commentary that Kylo (or in this case Ben) didn't want to kill Han Solo, he actually believed his father that he could walk away with him. But unfortuantely this thinking process was too late as the light in the room vanished.

    I think Snoke would have liked it more if Kylo killed Han fast. The prove is shown in TLJ:
    Kylo: "I killed Han Solo" *choking and almost with tears*
    Snoke: "And look at you... The deed deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced..."


    Why couldn't he kill his mother then?

    Kylo Ren's character is interesting because he's a dark side user who gets tempted by the light. He think he's doing the right thing, even though he knows the truth.

    HAN
    Snoke is using you for your power.
    When he gets what he wants, he'll
    crush you -- you know it's true.

    Kylo hesitates. Somehow, he does know it.

    KYLO REN
    It's too late.

    You clearly missed the purpose of their interaction. Kylo and Rey feel connection to each other because their share the same fate. Therefore both think they should join forces (unfortuantely a different kind of joining forces). There is no manipulation here.
     
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    My take on this is different. Kylo’s feelings and relationships to both Han and Luke are very different and this is obvious to me just by watching the films.

    You can tell by the way he talks to Han Kylo is more than anything disappointed in him. He calls him weak and foolish and acts like someone who has given up on a father who will never understand his choices. There is no much resentment in Adam’s acting, not really, just deep regret i think. I understood Kylo’s “pull to the light” were his feelings of love and connection. Feelings he wants to destroy by destroying those who induced them. My interpretation.

    Kylo’s disappointment in Luke is of a different nature. Luke was probably the person, apart from his busy mother Leia, Kylo could relate to at a “force” level and he would or should have looked up to. But Luke disappointed Kylo not by being an “uninvolved” father who didn’t know better like Han but as a teacher and as a mentor... Kylo is furious that the person who was supposed to make him understand his power turned on him.

    It is obvious to me that Kylo had a compassion for his father he did not have for Luke. I wonder what is Kylo’s grudge towards Leia. He must be angry at her too. Probably holds her more responsible for his abandonment than he held Han... after all she was the one who sent him to Luke. His feelings for Leia are undeniable... He could not kill her. But, how angry is he at her? This is something I’m really looking forward to seeing in 9
     
    #3 Kylocity, Sep 26, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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  4. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Kylo is now clearly pass the point of no return unless another big bad shows up.
     
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  5. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    He is a caring manipulator...as in he is emotional and cares about people like his parents and Rey, but he knows exactly what to say to have the outcome in his favor.
    .
     
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  6. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    First off, I'm not saying this has to be how it is, it's a possible way they can go. I'm not invested in this line of thought, if they do or don't go this way it won't make a heck of a difference for me as I'm not overly invested in the ST. I just realized through discussion that my take on Kylo is different and am putting it out there for others to analyze, dissimilate, add, have fun with. This isn't personal for me and I don't mean to offend anyone. I find this fun, it's not intended to offend, it's intended to explore possibilities, nothing more, nothing less.

    I liked your reply and enjoyed reading your analysis. Let me try and justify and further my take on Kylo. By no means do I expect you to agree, as most likely this isn't the way they'll go, but exploring the possibility could be fun.

    Maybe Kylo doesn't kill his mom because Rey isn't there, nor can she see him "torn" on that action. Rey saw Kylo kill Han, but she also saw what the viewers saw, his face torn on the action he's about to take. That it was difficult for him. That leads to perhaps her realizing there is still good in him. So he doesn't kill his mom because it would just be cold facts once she knew, therefor would not further his goals of conflicting and eventually turning her.

    My answer for the novelization is that maybe what is written for the character's thought process is not really his thought process, but the perceived thought process of that person through the point of view of the antagonist, Rey. She sees Kylo "conflicted", but that isn't what he's feeling, that's what she thinks he's feeling. Much like the viewer, since it's been established before that in TFA we are definitely watching through Rey's eyes, her pov.

    As for Snoke wanting Kylo killing his father quickly, I'm not so sure. If Kylo had ordered the ST to fire a hail of blaster fire, I don't think he would have passed his test, as that would be very easy without having him to really test his resolve. The fact that he looks in his fathers eyes as he does it by hand, that's powerful. I don't think it was the method that Snoke didn't like, it was his reaction afterward. If the reaction was faked for Snoke's benefit, then it's just another time that Snoke underestimated his apprentice.

    I don't think I missed the point, I just don't buy it. "Nothing goes over my head, I'm too fast, I would catch it." lol... in all honesty, I doubt they'll go this way, but I'm just saying it's one example of how they can turn things around.

    Now imagine if they do go this way what that would mean for IX?

    Luke haunts Kylo. Kylo goes "mad" and Hux and the KoR try and kill him and push him into exile. Kylo calls out to Rey, who can't see Luke, and takes pity on Kylo and hopes his sickness, and curing said sickness, is a way to reach Ben. They go on a mission to rid Kylo of his sickness/ghost. Leia realizes but can't contact Rey (or Rey doesn't believe her) and chase Rey and Kylo on their mission. The KoR don't want a healthy Kylo either now that they're in charge, so they chase them. Add in Finn, Chewie and some droids in with Rey and we have a chase, 2 waring factions in the FO and Resistance fighting each other while tracking Kylo/Rey, Luke's haunting and attempts to communicate with Rey, a new world or Mustafar or some other place where Jedi knowledge on how to rid a FG haunting. Done right, it could be an interesting story, all the while Kylo continues his manipulation of Rey and she unknowingly gets drawn further and further away from the light.

    IX ends with a face shot of Rey, Kylo beside her, rulers of the galaxy both, and we hear Kylo's voice as the camera focuses on Rey's face. Kylo says "I knew you would join me. I foresaw it in a vision. It was your destiny." At every line, Rey's eyes grow larger and larger, as she realizes that the people she killed defending Kylo in the hopes to have him healed, was all orchestrated by him. Roll credits, and we now wonder what Rey will chose now that the Resistance and her friends are gone, possibly dead or at the very least hating her, and she's now 2nd in command of the FO and the galaxy.
     
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  7. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I can see this interpretation working too.
     
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  8. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Kylo didn't know Rey was watching him killing Han at first too.

    It's stated that Kylo Ren found himself weakened, rather than gaining strength from this whole entire thing. Furthermore Adam Driver said in a Interview leading up to TLJ:
    "You know, I don’t think that patricide is all that it’s cracked up to be. Maybe that’s where Kylo Ren is starting from. His external scar is probably as much an internal one.”
    Kylo Ren is definitely conflicted. At least until the end of TLJ.

    Kylo doesn't care about Snoke und his tests. He wanted him dead since TFA (also stated in the novel).

    I actually like that alot! But you can easily change the last paragraph to Ben Solo (now redeemed) and Rey are standing on Tatooine/Jakku and watch the sunset.
     
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  9. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    On that last bit, yeah, the story can easily be modified to support a Reylo ending I guess. Along the way, Finn has to face off against Poe and Rose, Chewie against Leia and Lando, Rey and Kylo vs the KoR and whatever the Resistance and FO throws at them. Maybe even split up the droids and have them duke it out. They can even make some of them switch sides along the way. For some reason, I think having Poe and Finn fighting would be pretty intense, and I could see it happening if Finn has to help Rey.

    In regards to your arguments supporting Kylo as conflicted. Actors often are not told the final story, so Driver could simply be inserting his own perception of things. Maybe Rey didn't realize that Kylo was aware of her escape, then of her looking on (going back to her perception of events). As for Snoke, that works out fine. He doesn't care about the test or passing it, but he does care about fooling him so he can be underestimated, thus giving him his opening to kill him. He must look subservient and under Snoke's thumb. I would think a big part of Snoke underestimating Kylo was his apparent weakness and conflict when tasked to kill Han.
     
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  10. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    We're supposed to choose between "caring son" or "master manipulator"??
     
  11. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    @Sparafucile: so long as you think Ben's motivation is "to be evil" then of course you're going to interpret him as a manipulator.
    but "being evil" isn't a goal. he could just indiscriminately kill everyone in the galaxy if his motivation was merely to "be evil".

    you see him pretending to be conflicted in killing Han. i see him pretending to not be conflicted when directly challenged by Snoke:
    "he means nothing to me", "i killed Han Solo; when the time came, i didn't hesitate." ​
    there's your liar, right there.
     
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  12. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    Kylo's in too chaotic a state to be a master manipulator. Sidious was a master manipulator, and look at him. He's all calm and his words are enticing. He's always got that smile on his face. Kylo doesn't have any of that. He's torn and he's rash. He has no foresight and he doesn't play chess, he flips the board and starts hacking at it with his lightsaber screaming "#&$@ YOUR EN PASSE BULL@&$%!" His lightsaber says everything about him; it's dangerous and sizzling, unstable and fiery. Snoke called him out on killing Han that the act torn him apart. The symbolism in the movie shows that by having the Starkiller rebirth into a new star after it was destroyed. Starkiller extinguishes the light of the star, everything goes black, Kylo kills Han, star is reborn into light. The act is having the opposite effect on Kylo, instead of extinguishing the light permanently, it rebirthed it. Afterward, Kylo can't pull the trigger on Leia and then he kills Snoke to save Rey. There's no master manipulation going on, there's just a guy struggling to be someone he isn't.

    When it comes to, informing bets, I think it's less about, what ideas can a person come up with, and more about, who is writing this story? It's Disney. It's a Disney Star Wars movie. Disney has this thing with positive messages about, people working together to overcome threats larger than themselves as individuals. Star Wars is about, the idea that no one is ever really gone, and even the seeming worst of people can change. [metadude breaks into singing]"Tale as old as time. Rhyme as old as song. Bittersweet and strange, finding you can change - learning you were wrong..."[/singing]

    But hey, if anyone wants to put their money on, the girl loses, the diverse group fights itself, and unredeemable Kylo wins, and Disney embarks on and line of, enjoy our negative message kids, girls are losers and diversity breeds calamity? Then I admire that you like to gamble dangerously. Me? I'm just going to put my money on the obvious, everyone works together, the girl is a hero, Luke helps save the day, the Skywalker legacy is a good one and continues in Ben as he and Rey dance the Space-Charleston while R2 and BB8 make fun of C-3PO, Chewie laughs and Lando claps his hands as fire works are set off to a revamped version of Yub-Nub.
     
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