Kylo, caring son or master manipulator?

It seems my take on events in TFA and TLJ may not be the norm, especially concerning Kylo.

Though I'll admit in TFA on the spot I assumed Kylo might be good and redeemable at some point, I've realized my opinion has subconsciously shifted since seeing both TLJ and TFA. I haven't read the novelizations, so possibly with that extra info, someone could "prove" me wrong.

I don't believe Kylo is good or redeemable. I see him as a budding Sidious type. Dark side, manipulation, evil because he craves power or control over others.

I don't think he struggled to kill Han, I think he played it like he did to draw Han in. Think about it, if Kylo was in a rage at seeing his dad and foaming at the mouth like at the end of TLJ when first seeing Luke, would Han have approached him? As soon as I saw Kylo in control, I knew something was up. I knew Han was going to die. I just felt there and then that Kylo was manipulating Han to draw him near. To prove to Snoke his evilness, he couldn't just kill his father from a distance, he needed to do it intimately.

One might argue that Snoke felt that this would challenge Kylo. I say Kylo was already displaying an ability to manipulate Snoke.

You might say he was tempted by the light. I say his rejection of the light makes him all the more evil.

His frustration at the rejection of Rey has nothing to do with the hurt boy who just wants to be loved. It's Sidious/Anakin all over again, but more drastic. Sidious managed to fool Anakin without Anakin knowing Sidious was a Sith. Kylo is trying to turn Rey with her full knowledge of what he is, but him just giving Rey the tiniest glimmer of hope to draw her near.

Maybe Kylo can't beat Rey in a lightsaber duel, but maybe that isn't Kylo's long term plan. Rey feels confidant around Kylo because she's at least his equal, and likely more. Rey is drawn to bring out the good in Kylo, just as Luke did to his father, but her peril isn't Kylo's menacing lightsaber, it's his manipulation.

Rey has struck Kylo in the battles, but Kylo has dented Rey's resolve in the war. Kylo's playing the long game, he's playing chess while Rey is playing checkers.

Maybe we're not witnessing merely a physical fight, but much like Vader in ESB, it's also a battle of wits. In this way, maybe naïve Rey is slowly being drawn in. She closes the door on him at the end of TLJ, but will she really give up on the light she believes resides inside of Kylo?

 

First off, I'm not saying this has to be how it is, it's a possible way they can go. I'm not invested in this line of thought, if they do or don't go this way it won't make a heck of a difference for me as I'm not overly invested in the ST. I just realized through discussion that my take on Kylo is different and am putting it out there for others to analyze, dissimilate, add, have fun with. This isn't personal for me and I don't mean to offend anyone. I find this fun, it's not intended to offend, it's intended to explore possibilities, nothing more, nothing less.

I liked your reply and enjoyed reading your analysis. Let me try and justify and further my take on Kylo. By no means do I expect you to agree, as most likely this isn't the way they'll go, but exploring the possibility could be fun.

Maybe Kylo doesn't kill his mom because Rey isn't there, nor can she see him "torn" on that action. Rey saw Kylo kill Han, but she also saw what the viewers saw, his face torn on the action he's about to take. That it was difficult for him. That leads to perhaps her realizing there is still good in him. So he doesn't kill his mom because it would just be cold facts once she knew, therefor would not further his goals of conflicting and eventually turning her.

My answer for the novelization is that maybe what is written for the character's thought process is not really his thought process, but the perceived thought process of that person through the point of view of the antagonist, Rey. She sees Kylo "conflicted", but that isn't what he's feeling, that's what she thinks he's feeling. Much like the viewer, since it's been established before that in TFA we are definitely watching through Rey's eyes, her pov.

As for Snoke wanting Kylo killing his father quickly, I'm not so sure. If Kylo had ordered the ST to fire a hail of blaster fire, I don't think he would have passed his test, as that would be very easy without having him to really test his resolve. The fact that he looks in his fathers eyes as he does it by hand, that's powerful. I don't think it was the method that Snoke didn't like, it was his reaction afterward. If the reaction was faked for Snoke's benefit, then it's just another time that Snoke underestimated his apprentice.

I don't think I missed the point, I just don't buy it. "Nothing goes over my head, I'm too fast, I would catch it." lol... in all honesty, I doubt they'll go this way, but I'm just saying it's one example of how they can turn things around.

Now imagine if they do go this way what that would mean for IX?

Luke haunts Kylo. Kylo goes "mad" and Hux and the KoR try and kill him and push him into exile. Kylo calls out to Rey, who can't see Luke, and takes pity on Kylo and hopes his sickness, and curing said sickness, is a way to reach Ben. They go on a mission to rid Kylo of his sickness/ghost. Leia realizes but can't contact Rey (or Rey doesn't believe her) and chase Rey and Kylo on their mission. The KoR don't want a healthy Kylo either now that they're in charge, so they chase them. Add in Finn, Chewie and some droids in with Rey and we have a chase, 2 waring factions in the FO and Resistance fighting each other while tracking Kylo/Rey, Luke's haunting and attempts to communicate with Rey, a new world or Mustafar or some other place where Jedi knowledge on how to rid a FG haunting. Done right, it could be an interesting story, all the while Kylo continues his manipulation of Rey and she unknowingly gets drawn further and further away from the light.

IX ends with a face shot of Rey, Kylo beside her, rulers of the galaxy both, and we hear Kylo's voice as the camera focuses on Rey's face. Kylo says "I knew you would join me. I foresaw it in a vision. It was your destiny." At every line, Rey's eyes grow larger and larger, as she realizes that the people she killed defending Kylo in the hopes to have him healed, was all orchestrated by him. Roll credits, and we now wonder what Rey will chose now that the Resistance and her friends are gone, possibly dead or at the very least hating her, and she's now 2nd in command of the FO and the galaxy.

 

On that last bit, yeah, the story can easily be modified to support a Reylo ending I guess. Along the way, Finn has to face off against Poe and Rose, Chewie against Leia and Lando, Rey and Kylo vs the KoR and whatever the Resistance and FO throws at them. Maybe even split up the droids and have them duke it out. They can even make some of them switch sides along the way. For some reason, I think having Poe and Finn fighting would be pretty intense, and I could see it happening if Finn has to help Rey.

In regards to your arguments supporting Kylo as conflicted. Actors often are not told the final story, so Driver could simply be inserting his own perception of things. Maybe Rey didn't realize that Kylo was aware of her escape, then of her looking on (going back to her perception of events). As for Snoke, that works out fine. He doesn't care about the test or passing it, but he does care about fooling him so he can be underestimated, thus giving him his opening to kill him. He must look subservient and under Snoke's thumb. I would think a big part of Snoke underestimating Kylo was his apparent weakness and conflict when tasked to kill Han.