SPECULATION Kylo Ren as The Sequel Trilogy's Protagonist

But he told that he wanted to kill Ben because of what he saw him doing in the future and because of him completely subduing to the dark side. He never mentioned that he had done something evil as a child/tennager/young adult.

 

ironically, i think they want the same thing: peace and order in the galaxy. they're just ideologically at odds.
Ben needs to stop feeling threatened by every shadow and Rey needs to learn to assert her own will.
they are by design complementary and have what the other needs: her courage/will and his power/passion.
Rey could have taken control in the throne room, but she got caught up in thinking it was for solely Ben to choose (it's not).

so far as we know he hasn't done anything at that point. something has scared the pants off of this kid's parents and uncle, but as of yet it's just hunches, bad feelings, and a corrupted bloodline that's driven them to treat this kid so much like Vader that he's convinced that's all he's good for.

 

No, Luke mentions him having done something during training. But he never says what that was. Did he whack another kid's head off for making fun of his grandfather? Who knows. we're never told.

That's the way I look at it. but, as I mentioned to Pawek, above, Luke says Kylo did something while he was in training. But what? It must have been terrible for Luke do want to assassinate him over it, but they don't show it, so maybe it's not terrible. We have no idea.

It would go a long way toward explaining both Kylo and Luke if they were more clear about what the heck it is he is supposed to have done.

 

I think Luke's wording was that he'd had "glimpses" of "it" in Ben's training, or something to that effect. It wasn't until Luke looked inside Ben's mind while he was sleeping that he saw the future and the darkness and the chaos there for certain. The reason Rey got so riled at Luke for thinking (even for the briefest moment) that he should kill Ben was that Ben hadn't made his decision at that point. The tragedy is that Luke inadvertently opened the floodgates that made all the darkness and chaos happen. But that's how visions seem to work in SW, like self-fulfilling prophecies.

 

he says:

i saw darkness.
i sensed it building in him.
i'd seen it in moments during his training.
but then i looked inside and it was beyond anything i had imagined.​

so no, Ben didn't really do anything. he was probably temperamental (he still is). probably had impulse control issues (he still does). he probably was a selfish brat (guess what hasn't changed). all of those things are Darkside, but none of them make him evil. Luke even acknowledges that everyone has a little Dark in them. it's what Luke saw when he looked inside and saw Snoke's corruption that set him off, really. and again, how is that Ben's fault?

 

"Moments" don't really sound like much, do they? It's just hard to know what that means. Kylo could kill someone in a moment. But it is something Luke saw, which means it is something visible, so why didn't they show it to us as well, as small as it might be? After all, Luke thought it was significant. And, for that matter, since they've shown us mental images before- why not when he looked inside Kylo's mind?

I think where you and I diverge a bit in opinion is that I blame the director and you blame Luke. I'm hoping there is something terrible that Kylo did which justifies Luke's actions, that we will perhaps see in movie IX. But if you are right and there isn't, then Luke appointed himself judge, jury and (almost) executioner of a child- Leia's son- ugh, I just don't want to believe that. It's an affront to the morals of every culture, never mind the code of the Jedi.

However, Luke and Han are gone, Leia will have a very limited role if any, and I don't know how these questions can really be answered in IX. What is obvious to me is that Kylo has a much bigger and more complex story going on than Rey, and that's why I think he's really the star of this show.

 

I guess a lot of people share your view on Kylo Ren. How do you feel about Darth Vader? Is he threatening to you? He's never been all that scary to me.

Kylo Ren seems more developed, like a real, conflicted person. An unpredictable person is scarier to me than the bad guy who's predictable.

 

Kylo Ren is already my favorite villain in the SW universe.
Darth Vader is an emblematic figure, his visuals and forcechokes are the trademarks but he isnt well developed like Kylo. The confrontantion in Ben's personality and his attacks of fury made him a problematic person and sometimes I think that this character was written like a person with serious mental illness.

 

Thanks for this link. NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder), very interesting subject. I am curious how JJ will continue with Kylo in IX.

 

that's completely not Ben as i see him in terms of his "mental illness".
and the writer seems to make a lot of assumptions about his motivations and intent.

there's lots of varied fodder on the subject (just a tiny sampling here):

• https://medium.com/@lhommedepointe/...r-socialization-in-the-last-jedi-a3a675d468c7
  
• http://uncsiren.com/kylo-ren-toxic-masculinity/
• http://www.sezin.org/tag/childhood-abuse/

we can play "choose your own adventure" with this, for sure. but honestly, the more we find out about Ben, the more i am inclined to believe that all of his issues stem directly from trauma and his abandonment issues; he's not just some spoiled reject with a bad temper. and if he has truly psychotic narcissistic traits, they are clearly just spackle for his crushing insecurity at being so stupidly powerful in a world in which he is absolutely powerless to get what he actually needs.

 

Hopefully he will save the onlyone he has compassion for at the very end because if they really go the whole way of self destruction with this character we will just see the sad end of another despotic leader who gets his paypack. The one way or the other Ren & Rey will dominate the endgame.

 

Yeah I found Vader threatening, he just seemed like you did somthing wrong you'd be dead before you got the chance to explain yourself. thats threatening

I agree with you that they have made Kylo seem like a more complex character, but complex doesn't make thretening alot of time he comes accross like a teenger full of angst, which is weird considering the actor playing him is in his mid 30's, I don't really find that threatening, maybe it provkes a bit of symathpy but not threatening.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2018 ---

I would love that to be true! i don't get the feeling that was the way it has been written, but it's a great way of looking at it.

 

I hear you, but have you met people? Being grown doesn't mean one is an adult! Adam Driver is my age and he is the perfect actor to play this character, imo. I love both him and Kylo Ren.

 

actually, i think it is the way he's been written, and we are supposed to feel sympathy for him (or hopefully compassion).

he's only scary because he's so out of control and unpredictable. otherwise, he's really a failed villain ~ on purpose.
by design he's striving to be scary like Vader, but he's literally as Snoke said, just a child in a mask.

 

I fully agree. From a storytelling standpoint, it makes perfect sense for the choices he has made to be down to the same cause as that which has spurred on his equal, Rey. They both have abandonment issues. These same issues have led them down very different paths but paths which at times have interwoven. Ren isn't mentally ill. He wasn't dropped on his head as a kid. He doesn't have "too much Vader in him". He was simply a child born with great power they didn't understand and then didn't receive the right guidance.

Now, we shouldn't feel too bad for Ren as we see Rey has suffered too in her life. But that again is kind of the point. She is supposed to work as an example to Ren. She can both connect to him through their life journey's but also show him what is possible.

Again, right on the money. Ren might be black and white to the under 8's but to anyone with a more mature, experienced, nuanced point of view, they will sympathise with him. They will see themselves in him - the times, especially through adolescence, where they have been angry and lost. It is supposed to be hard to feel compassion for him - if it wasn't, the story wouldn't teach us anything. It was exactly the same with Luke and Vader. The journey from point blank hating the villain to feeling compassion for them is a long road but one that shows us, in the real world, that redemption is possible.

Ren had to be the worst of the worst, whilst retaining some humanity, to show us that. This is Star Wars. It's a mythological moral guide that uses extreme stories (galactic war, mass murder and supernatural forces) as a metaphor for the struggles we face in life. With Ren, there can be direct examples of his behaviour when looking at high school killers or young terrorists. But there is the more subtle, nuanced point of view where he represents the side in all of us, especially when growing up, that feels rejected, abandoned, used and angry.

It's not going to be easy to bring Ben home - but when it happens, and rest assured it will happen, it will hopefully show all of us that no one is ever really gone...

 

I really want to believe he is been written that way because it makes him such a more interesting villain, and really enhances the whole trilogy. However, if this was the case I can't help thinking Adam driver or Johnson or Abrams would have come out and said this, it the sort of thing directors and actors like to talk about, as it doesn't give anything away from the plot, it shows they have put really deep thought into their work and enhances their craft. So I would find it strange that if this was the way it was written at no point n the billion+ interviews they have had to give none of them mentioned it.

The way I watch him is that he has been written to be vague because they want to keep the audience guessing about is he going to turn to the light .... also as we have learned we know that very few (if any) elements to this trilogy have been pre-planned so writing him in the way they have keeps options open for when they finally decide how they want to complete this trilogy. This theory also fits in with what we know about the two directors Abrams loves to keep audiences guessing and we know one of Johnson main aims with his film was to subvert expectations and surprise.

Please don't take my criticisms of the character as criticisms of Adam Driver, I really like him as an actor. But I do feel he is a bit old to play a character who acts quite as teenage angsty as he is. Like you, I'm about Adam Drivers age (im 33) and so obviously a lot of my friends are of a similar age, yet I can't say I know anyone even close to our age who acts so teenagery. I mean really when you boil down Ben/Kylo's story is a coming of age story, really I feel to be doing this you needed an actor at least a decade younger. Like FN-3263827 points out Snoke calls him a child in a Mask, a weird statement to call a 30+ year-old character.

Don't get me wrong I think they have had lots of really cool ideas with the Kylo/ben character, but its been so all over the place, I mean the last Jedi basically spends the first two acts showing audiences he is weak, not such a bad guy after all, then we get told that he is so powerful and evil that the force had to create his equal in the Light(which makes even less sense considering this was said by Snoke who was clearly more powerful then both of them put together). If you are going to use that as a plot, then you have to show the audience that he is strong and evil, not spend most of the film portraying him as weak and misunderstood.

A lot depends on where they go from here, Kylo is now the only credible villain left(they have taken all Hux's credibility away after making him such a joke character) so how you handle the films only real villain, who the audience has to accept is a threat to the whole galaxy, yet a lot of the audience feel has been made to look weak, a lot of the audience want to see him redeemed as they don't feel he is bad, a huge chunk has a Twilight esc obession with the idea of Reylo. It going to be an incredibly hard thing to pull off and feel like the story has something resembling continuity through the 3 films(not to mention the other 6) something that is already complaint about this trilogy. I really really hope they pull it off, but they have made it really hard for themselves.

 

but i think they have said as much. neither Abrams nor Driver has ever described Ren Ben as anything but misguided and lost; feeling utterly justified in his insane choices ~ that he feels abandoned and ill-used and fearful (and consumed by anger and frustration at being alone and misunderstood). Johnson made it even more clear that he's grasping, looking for connection, lashing out at things that have hurt him in the past (including his family).

if you feel like he's vague, maybe it's only because it's a touchy subject: he did kill his father, and that's hard for many fans to process (especially because it was Han Solo, of all people). but many fans understand and empathize with Ben's rage, his conflict, and the contradiction of how much he loved his father.

if you do a simple search for Kylo Ren + abuse (or Ben Solo), you'll find that a lot of people have written a lot of things about how Ben's psyche resonates for people who have suffered. because Ben is the product of someone with trauma who hasn't found a support system (or found a bad one, like the FO ~ which is easily a stand in for any and all self-destructive behaviors: drugs, alcohol, gangs, prostitution, militant terrorist cells, pathological religious cults).

Johnson understood that and caught flack for expressing it on his twitter account.
fortunately, he has the courage of his convictions and refused to apologize for it.