1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

SPECULATION Kylo Ren - being what Anakin was supposed to be

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Fussel2107, Dec 26, 2015.

  1. Fussel2107

    Fussel2107 Rebel General

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Posts:
    800
    Likes Received:
    1,343
    Trophy Points:
    4,717
    Credits:
    2,165
    Ratings:
    +1,999 / 20 / -24
    Alright everybody, listen up. Long winded meta incoming.


    Still all pertains to some extend to the plot of VIII and IX but since it mostly dances around the question of “who is Kylo Ren” I’m keeping it separate.


    What do we know about Kylo?

    He has been pursued by Snoke basically since he was born. He was sent away by his worried parents to be trained by Luke where he betrayed him and his students. He was not yet an adult by that point. Han called him a boy who betrayed the academy and in the novelization it’s said that the encounter on the walkway was the first time that Han saw the face of his son as an adult.

    So, let him be 15.

    That would mean that he has been with Snoke for fifteen years.

    And he still struggles and constantly must fight against the light controlling his actions.

    Pablo Hidalgo and JJ Abrams have both confirmed that Kylo is not a Sith, no Darth title for him.

    It also seems that Snoke is very much apprehensive of Luke and what he could possibly do.

    Looking a bit farther back: Anakin was said to be the Chosen One, who was supposed to bring balance to the Force. The Jedi order should have been very suspicious of this since bringing balance to the Force could only have meant to knock the Jedi off their pedestal. After all there hadn’t been any Sith in thousands of years and the Jedi had pretty much monopolized the Force. Ah well, I’m not here to talk about hubris.


    Back to Anakin. In the Clone Wars tv show it was pretty much confirmed that Anakin was able to command both Dark and Light Side, but that pretty seems to have been an either or case. He was either a Jedi or a Sith, both of whom are on one side absolutely.

    When you are a Sith you go dark, when you are a Jedi, you serve the light. The only case of something in between (and I am not sure if that is still canon) is Mace Windu who instrumentalized his strong combat affinity to the dark side to serve the light in the form of Varpaad or form 7, which he invented.


    So, back to little Ben, who grew up in the light but being courted by the dark side, but even as he shunned the light, he never fully went dark.

    Lor San Tekka even commented on it and I think it might become somewhat prophetic: Ben is a being of light and he can’t just stop.

    Design flaw or intentional?

    What was it that Anakin was supposed to bring? Oh yeah… balance to the Force.

    What if Snoke is not worried about Luke being able to kill him, but Luke being able to influence Kylo Ren to such an extent that he is in balance, straddling the middle between light and dark and that is what gives him power. Balance.

    But if that were the case then Ben would have to reject Snoke, just as he had to reject Luke.

    And he would have to balance out his deeds. He has done unspeakable evil. He needs to do good.

    Even Kylo’s violent nature and his tantrums may be evidence to this imbalance. His nature itself is trying to fight the state of being he is in right now.

    Snoke knows this, which is, I think why he is not trying too hard to bring the boy in line of evil, only ever on this side of good.

    But as soon as someone accepts Kylo Ben’s true nature and he levels out he will be a) extremely powerful and b) uncontrollable and c) unpredictable.

    But after the things he did for Snoke I am pretty sure that he would be the one with the shortest straw.


    Anakin was the one would could bring balance to the Force, but his grandson actually is the one who is able to live in this state of balance.
    Which brings a nice spin to Kylo being such a fanboy. So far he seems to concentrate solely on Vader (the Sith side) but I hope at some point Grandpa will just wack him upside the head and kick him into shape a bit.

    I don’t dare call him a grey Jedi, because I don’t think Kylo Ren will ever be able to be a Jedi, just as he is unfit to be a Sith.
     
    #1 Fussel2107, Dec 26, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Original Original x 1
  2. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Posts:
    2,133
    Likes Received:
    26,523
    Trophy Points:
    151,117
    Credits:
    15,501
    Ratings:
    +29,442 / 126 / -47
    If I'm not mistaken, the Sith are extinct according to the Novel for TFA....

    Need to double check.
     
  3. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,357
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,837
    Ratings:
    +157,680 / 65 / -7
    so much good stuff to respond to here, but i'm going to pick this little piece out for now. i absolutely believe (and have said it all over the boards elsewhere) that Snoke is deliberately leaving Kylo Ren in a state of torment. he pretends to be a mentor, but he keeps Ren off-balance and untrained because he probably fears his potential ~ and by preventing Ren from actually progressing in the Force, he can preserve his subservience. so long as Ren is emotionally weak, Snoke can dominate him.

    at the end of vii, Snoke says it's time to finish his training, but only because he sees an objective worth throwing Ren at now that the threat of Luke returning is real. and even then i doubt he'll train Ren in anything but viciousness the way dogfighters train pitt bulls.

    i was absolutely impressed on first viewing how Ben's struggle draws parallels to Anakin's (but is presented so much more elegantly ~ and, frankly, so much more disturbingly ~ this is how real evil happens).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Posts:
    832
    Likes Received:
    5,525
    Trophy Points:
    14,877
    Credits:
    5,770
    Ratings:
    +7,305 / 20 / -6
    The poem in the beginning of the TFA novelization is very important I think.

    First comes the day
    Then comes the night.
    After the darkness
    Shines through the light.
    The difference, they say,
    Is only made right
    By the resolving of gray
    Through refined Jedi sight.

    - Journal of the Whills 7:477

    What I think the ST is setting up is truly the thing about bringing balance to the force. And without no doubt it has already been established in TFA that Ben Solo/Kylo is an unstable mixture of dark and light. As you point out his conversation with Tekka was meaningful (though Tekka seemed to only be goading, really provoking Kylo rather than having any actual hope for him), but still the first apperaance of Kylo it was immediately hinted that this masked figure has in his origins/nature something opposite to what his appearance portrait; then, Kylo's rage outbursts represent this instability, this volatile unbalanced energy; also his lightsaber which is on the brink of explosion - we have seen Kylo being aggressive, but we have also seen him being vulnerable.

    Snoke himself talks about Kylo as being the perfect material as an apprentice, a pure (raw?) combination of (unpolished, unbalanced) dark and light.

    “I have never had a student with such promise—before you.”

    Ren straightened. “It is your teachings that make me strong, Supreme Leader.”

    Snoke demurred. “It is far more than that. It is where you are from. What you are made of. The dark side—and the light. The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work. I have—you.”

    And since we know that killing Han (which was done at the order of Snoke and was a test for Kylo) seems to have triggered an even bigger imbalance in Kylo it will be interesting to see what kind of training Snoke has in store for him (torture?)...Also, it is very very strange, as you pointed out why would Snoke not have trained Kylo by now? It must have been at least 10 years since Kylo joined the FO...(We don't know for sure, but it definitely wasn't a very short period)...That Snoke is manipulating Kylo is obvious...But Kylo also seems to have some kind of his own "private interests" which it has been hinted at do not fully align with the FO and Snoke...

    There was a rumor in the very early days of the production which I saved:
    "Sounds like Adam Driver is NOT going to play a villain...sort of. He will be playing the son of Han and Leia, and it seems he will be seduced to the Dark Side, and a main plot point for the movie will be their attempt to rescue him."
    That to me sounds spot on correct. But also, another thing to add to that is that by the end of ep.IX Ben Solo/Kylo Ren will find (bring?) balance to the force both in himself, but otherwise as well. And this is what I think is meant in his words "addressing" his grandfather: "I will fulfil our destiny. I will finish what you started." i.e. read: I will bring balance to the Force.

    Even if this is not what he meant literally when he says those words to Vader's mask, eventually (within the ST narrative) these words will become prophetic and this is what is actually going to happen...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,794
    Likes Received:
    15,179
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,098
    Ratings:
    +26,532 / 845 / -253
    YES the Sihh have been eradicated by Vader and Luke .
     
  6. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Posts:
    2,133
    Likes Received:
    26,523
    Trophy Points:
    151,117
    Credits:
    15,501
    Ratings:
    +29,442 / 126 / -47
    The Lost Tribe? Krayt? All dead? Nope. Just legends, like everything else.
     
    • Original Original x 1
  7. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,794
    Likes Received:
    15,179
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,098
    Ratings:
    +26,532 / 845 / -253
    What about the Sith would you take from The OLD-EU ?
     
  8. A Concerned Fan

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Kylo Ren/Ben Solo would never be as powerful as Vader/Anakin. The idea that he ever could be is flawed imo. Kylo could never be as powerful as Luke either. Kylo would always be third fiddle in that group imo. Think about it - the son of Han Solo and Princess Leia - Leia was less than Luke force-wise, and Solo is a clown when it comes to the force, he's about as force sensitive as a container of mayonaise lol. This is why making him and Rey so powerful is so flawed and such a nonsensical idea.
     
    #8 A Concerned Fan, Jan 5, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
Loading...

Share This Page