Kylo Ren "talking" to Darth Vader helmet

the question of the light saber has bothered me for a while. Maz has had it for "ages" apparently, but Kylo Ren recognizes it and wants to claim it.
not sure how to reconcile that. i suspect we'll come to find out how it came into Maz's possession and that at some point Kylo Ren nearly got his hands on it but didn't.

as to the mask and the whole "show me grandfather" business...there's a lot going on in that scene that we don't know.

• we don't know if he wants to snuff the Light or just hide it better from Snoke
• we don't know what part of what Vader started he wants to finish.

i think there's a reason that this scene spawned the whole "double-agent" theory (which i don't subscribe to personally), but it's deliberately very vague, so there may be more to it. given what we know about Kylo Ren from the rest of the movie, i'm inclined at the moment to take this at face-value:

• he's trying to shore up his wafflyness because he knows Snoke disapproves.
• he's been convinced by Snoke that ruling the galaxy is his birthright/destiny (and should have been Vader's).

to me the area where there's greatest room for interpretation is in understanding what Kylo Ren actually thinks about Vader's "downfall".
and i have a feeling even he isn't sure of that.

 

@Light Savior_47 How Maz got the LS is something I think they intend to explain in coming Episodes, they at least acknowledged that it was strange that she would have it, and hinted at future explanations for her possession of the weapon.

It seems like they might be exploring Psychometry in the ST. Psychometry being the Force ability of deducing information about people or events associated with an object solely by touching it. Whoever used that ability received input from sight, sound, and emotions. That is what Rey demonstrated, and it's not a new ability persay, Psychometry is an established force ability in the expanded universe. It's possible that Kylo has some Psychometry capability as well and that he has received visions previously from the Vader helmet.

 

I find this thread very interesting because I think Kylo's interpretation of Vader's grand plan is his motivation for the whole new trilogy. Going forward, I'm sure we'll get a better explanation of what Kylo's intentions are. I personally believe that he isn't a double agent, but rather someone that has an independent agenda from the other evildoers. We've been told time and again that these new villains truly believe that they are on the right side of this conflict.
Maybe Kylo traveled the galaxy and experienced first-hand how chaotic the New Republic had become.

 

Yeah, I got the feeling that there is a much larger secret floating around than simply Rey's parentage.

 

I think Kylo must've had a vision, either from said helmet or Anakin's old saber at some point before. At a stretch, maybe it wasn't a vision that came from these items but that he just had independently. It's just for me it seems that this is why he has the helmet. Something came from that or from the saber (like with Rey) and he is desperately trying to get another vision.

Now the vision itself will in my book be of Vader committing evil and showing him in all his evil glory - showing Kylo what he could do with his power and the power he is to acquire.

Clearly, the scene is about Kylo feeling the pull of the light and just needing a reminder, a motivation, from Vader to do what he must (kill his father) to fully embrace the Dark Side and reject the light. Only by doing this does he feel he can find his place in the galaxy, find a use for his power.

However, another alternative in regard to the vision, is that Snoke put it in his head (if he can take thoughts out why not put them in?). This started Kylo on his path but once you become a Force user and are trained, it is next to impossible for Snoke to insert more thoughts. So basically Snoke tricked Kylo and he has been waiting for another bit of advice from Vader that will never come.

What I hope isn't the case is that Vader's evil force ghost appeared to Kylo. I just don't think that is justifiable or explainable.

 

i think it's telling that he asks this of Vader instead of his "supreme leader" who i'm sure is more than willing to show him (though probably not in a way he'd like).
the fact that he's hiding from Snoke is rather interesting.

 

Kylo starts his monologue/dialogue with "Forgive me," so he is directly appealing to Vader's sentiment, when Snoke has criticised Vader for just such sentiment (I've discussed this missing passage in a separate thread).

I definitely don't get the impression that Kylo admires his grandfather for his alleged lack of feelings, on the contrary.

I'd be pleased if it turned out that it was Luke who gave Kylo the helmet in an attempt to reach him, when Kylo was already heavily indoctrinated by Snoke. It's probably easier for Kylo to relate to the conflicted Skywalker than to the always light one, but Vader is still family.

 

My friend, who has a film degree/industry background & saw TFA 3 times so far, made the point that Ben/Kylo Ren put the Vader helmet in a pile of what looks like gray ash. He said it could be ash from Anakin's remains in the pyre scene of Return of the Jedi(1983). Ben Solo may have learn of Darth Vader or Anakin as a kid or young teen then connected with his grandfather's image on some personal level(unaware of the real background).
Snoke who according to the novel version "knew the true" and saw Anakin's actions as weakness.

These issues may be resolved in EP 8 or maybe 9. I've heard rumors the new Benico Del Toro EP 8 film character may drive a wedge between Snoke & Kylo Ren leading to a power struggle where Ren feels he alone like Vader can rule the galaxy. No Hux, no Snoke, no Resistance.

 

VADER to Luke: You do not know the power of the dark side.

YODA: Do NOT underestimate the POWER of the Emperor.

Light Savior my friend, all hell is about to break loose.

Emperor: Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.

Emperor: I can teach you how to cheat death.

Vader: As you wish.

Anakin turned because of what promise?

To cheat death.

His helmet may be charred but his soul is still alive. And things are going to get real ugly... quick like. I'm calling it.

And that is where Luke will come in and realize that Skywalkers are born from the dark side. Manipulated. Emperor is the father. Sidious is a Skytwalker. He created Anakin with Shmi, And the blood line continued. They can't help it they will always turn bad because its in their blood.

But now we have Rey. A skywalker to continue the story. Will she turn bad? In the end, yes. But there is a character that will develop that will end the skywalkers with the same last name.

That character is up to Disney.

 

On the helmet scene:
It is him working things out by pretending to speak with the grandfather he idolizes, attempting to strength his grip on the Dark Side and to prevent being "tempted" by the Light.
On the lightsaber:
When it comes to him saying that the weapon belongs to him, that's very simple: it is the weapon of his grandfather, the man he's trying to emulate. To him, it is his birthright.
On recognizing it, I have some possible explanations:
1) We do know that holograms of Anakin Skywalker from the Clone Wars still exist at least till approx. 5 years before the Battle of Yavin (thanks, Rebels!) and it wouldn't surprise me if some survived beyond the Galactic Civil War. If they did, it wouldn't surprise me if a young Ben Solo (or maybe even after he became Kylo Ren) studied them, eventually memorizing how the saber looked (like many of us have simply by watching the movies).
2) At some point, Luke found the weapon himself and had displayed it for his students. How it got into Maz's hands, I have no idea.
3) There might have been a time where Kylo almost had the lightsaber, before it was taken by Maz. Again, I have no idea.

 

Regarding to all of this, I've been thinking about...What is exactly the meaning of Kylo's monologue with Darth Vader's helmet?(a sort of "to be or not to be" a Dark Lord)

There is a phrase that captured my attention: "Show me AGAIN the power of the darkness" ...Is this scene subtly implying that somehow Vader showed the path of the Dark Side to Kylo/Ben before? A dark Force ghost?

Or is it that Kylo/Ben actually had a "helmet Force vision" (a la Rey)?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 26, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 26, 2016 ---

That is exactly what I've been thinking about! And I think it would be awesome to have a Dark Lord with this ability...

 

This scene is a mystery. "Forgive me". "Show me the darkness AGAIN". Very odd for Kylo to say. Why would he be asking Vader for forgiveness, when he knows Vader turned back to the light, Snoke/Plagueis talks about this in the TFA novel. But Kylo has obviously seen something. By who though? Snoke/Plagueis playing mind games? Remember, Plagueis could use force illusions....but let's not go there, for now...

 

Thank you!
In regarding to the Darth Vader's theory it would be perfectly possible...If you take a look to "The Art of The Force Awakens" book, there was a certain moment in the concepts development for the movie where they considered to include a Light/Dark Anakin's ghost, flowing back and forth from Darth Vader to Anakin...