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Last Jedi Civil Discussion Thread (No Hatred for Anothers Opinion)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by YubNubBub, Dec 29, 2017.

?

How did you feel about The Last Jedi?

  1. I liked it

    60 vote(s)
    65.2%
  2. I disliked it

    32 vote(s)
    34.8%
  1. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    I just wanted to post something I think this forum can benefit from.

    The ratio I am now seeing is rough 70% liked and 30% disliked TLJ.

    That being said, we are all still part of the same community, Star Wars. We can debate, we can be civil, but at no point on this forum, or in the real world for that matter, should we engage in hatred over anothers opinion about The Last Jedi.

    Also you cannot force someone to come around to your point of view. You can discuss, try to reach some common ground, but ultimately each man or woman is entitled to their own opinion.

    So feel free to debate.....

    May the Force be with you.

    Always remember to e respectful.

    This is a civil debate thread. Feel free to give your overall impression of the movie and if it has a SW vibe to it.



    ##########################################################



    Overall Experience: Negative

    Pros: Music, Visuals, Acting, Location Diversity, Humor, Addition of Lore from OT (Rebel Base and Fighters), Unique Double "Force Pull", Addition of "Force Mind Bridge/Share", Prop Creativity, Addition of "Executioner" Stormtrooper, Addition of Praetorian Guard, Addition of Porgs, Addition of Modified X-Wing (Poe), Continuity Preservation (Poe Damron Jacket Lightsaber Damage)

    Cons: Poor Story, Plot Holes, Underutilized Backstory or Non Developed Backstory, Inappropriate/Badly Timed Humor, Starship Mechanics, Physics, Addition of "Force Flying", Addition of "Force Encapsulate", Irrational Decision-making, Lightsaber Lore Altered (Skill/Technique), Unlikely/Implausible Death (Snoke), Force Progression Altered (Rey), Intentional Continuity Loss (Kylo Ren Scar Location)

    Please Note: This comprehensive list will be a WIP to be continued over a period of time and grow as time progresses.
     
    #1 YubNubBub, Dec 29, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
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  2. JarJar

    JarJar Guest

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    My overall experience is positive.Cons are: Lando should have taken out the Supremacy.There was no need for Holdos character..No KOR in VIII..Hux was too slapstick.
     
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  3. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    Glad you enjoyed the movie. I will continue my list tomorrow. Can't wait to get more replies like yours. Well, good night and may the force be with you.
     
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  4. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    I really enjoyed this movie. First time was a little weird (but I love weirdness) and I was in shock. Second time it was much better and tonight I will finally wil see it for the third time.
     
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I loved this movie, and that's a new experience for me, as I think this is the first 2nd act of really any trilogy which I really get excited about.
    I usually don't like second acts because they're dark, and my favorite is usually the first act because I like the discovery and call to adventure section of a story more than any other part.
    This didn't bump TFA down a peg for me, but it did bump ANH from 2nd to 3rd, which also says a lot because ANH has always been my favorite SW until TFA.

    The reasons that I love this movie are numerous and wide ranging; it would take a lot of writing to capture it all (and I do it in pieces all over the board), but in summary, it basically goes something like this:

    The narrative symmetry of the story is just beautiful. Everyone in the first half of the film makes a poor decision for which they make the right decision in the second half, except for DJ who makes the exact same choice in both halves, to even the exact same people, and walks away clean. Then there's Kylo Ren who runs just the opposite where his choices in the first half progressively appear to redeem him a little bit each time, and then in the second half all of his choices further cement his condemnation. I love that the middle section of the film is marked quite literally by three things cutting in half: Snoke, his ship, and the lightsaber. I love that this symmetry model is so dialed in that Rey offers to Kylo and he refuses, then the throne room middle, and then Kylo offers to Rey and she refuses.
    I go into this more deeply in the thread I created for it, but it's just marvelous.

    Even more so when you account for RJ's requirement to parallel the prior couplets ESB, AOTC, and ROTJ, and TPM at a minimum and effectively has an Anakin (Kylo) and Luke (Rey) narrative chiasmus to juggle simultaneously, along with all of the general scenes not directly related to either of them.
    I mean...he had to pull off a Bespin/Kaminoa and a Podracer/Jabba's Palace (because AOTC did Kaminoa / Outlander Club, TFA already having done the Cantina/Outlander Club with Maz's Cantina) in a very tight space, and resolved it by combining a sort of Bespin and Podracer in Bight. (I go into this more here), but again it's just amazing to watch all of this while moving a narrative through it.

    I mean...it's hard enough trying to tell the narrative parallel arcs of Anakin's 2nd and 1st acts, and Luke's 2nd and 3rd acts at the same time, but also having to pull together all of the general theme parallels (inhumanity of chattel ownership, the betrayal of neutrality, etc..) to the previously mentioned films, and further having to attend to making the whole narrative itself symmetrical because ESB started the trend of symmetrical second acts for SW, and then AOTC rebounded it in reverse order; saying nothing for the stories that had to be pulled through for the secondary characters.

    If it wouldn't have embarrassed my wife, I would have stood up and just clapped at the end. That was a massive amount of work and skill.

    And my absolute favorite part of the entire film currently is DJ.
    I don't care about the portrayal of the character, but the idea of the character within this Niagara falls of narrative structure parallel obligations, RJ took a look at the notion of the neutral betrayer (e.g. Lando), and his requirement for a symmetrical story, and his theme for the movie (the ideal is less worth than the actual - 'tear down the idols', which I elaborate on here), and decided to have the neutral betrayer make harmful decisions of betrayal twice unto the same people on each side of the film and used him to be the voice of the theme of the story (no bad, no good; just flow) and further then walks away metaphorically dropping the mic because no one in SW has ever made an immoral decision and within the same movie walked away from it scot-free. Everyone always pays their moral dues in SW within the same movie, at the very least in part. For example, Lando's betrayal almost immediately backfired as he was subsequently betrayed.
    It's just damn clever to have the neutral character be the character who gets away with not paying their moral debt, effectively being morally exempt from the SW moral tax.

    And yes, I love Luke tossing the saber. Yes, I thought it was quaintly funny, but what I liked about it was just how existentially brutal that was.
    I also love thinking from Luke's perspective. He's been hating on the myth of the Jedi and indeed the entire idea of the Jedi for quite some time. I mean; he's mostly alone all of the time thinking about this tangent on repeat. He's worked himself down a very nihilistic (for the Jedi order) position regarding the Jedi, and then comes this bright eyed woman up and she doesn't say anything. He hasn't seen a person for quite some time. She hands him a light saber.
    *sigh* F***.
    And tosses it.

    It's a great old motif: a master, disillusioned by experience, removes the thing which the student marvels as the principle important thing of becoming like the master.
    It was, with far less hubris, a very Morphius/Neo moment - you think you know what you're doing, and what this all is; you're wrong.

    TFA wins for what I'll be likely to pick to watch; I like the excitement and adventure of that film, but this film wins the technical award hands-down.

    Cheers!
    Jayson :)
     
    #5 Jayson, Dec 29, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
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  6. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    I absolutely love this movie. I think its a masterpiece for many reasons. Though this movie bumbs TFA for me from spot 2 to 3, it does also bumb ESB from 1 to 2. Yes, for me The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars movie :)

    For the rest I completely agree with @Jayson
     
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  7. Kreetle Kris

    Kreetle Kris Rebel Official

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    I loved TLJ, ..... apart from one sequence; the chase through the streets of Canto Bright was so 'in your face' CG that it took me out of the film for a few minutes.

    All the rest worked for me, especially the Ahch To - scenes. The way they handled Luke (probably the most controversial part of the script) to me, was brilliant. They continued his 'hero's story', (which was basically finished, at the end of ep 6) by turning Luke into an embittered man who learns some lessons on hubris and dogmatism, becomes a master again, comes to terms with his legacy and finally becomes the legend he was destined to be in what is an instant classic SW scene. The final showdown between him and Kylo Ren was wonderfully executed and a fitting heroic end to one of cinema's most beloved characters.

    The renewed focus on the force as an amoral power (and consequently the undoing of a lot of the christian symbolism, celibacy, destinies, chosen ones, immaculate conceptions, dogmatism, ....) was thought provoking, philosophical and perhaps the most unexpected and ballsy move in a script that took no chances.
     
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  8. The Last Jorgny

    The Last Jorgny Rebel Official

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    Favorite of the new movies so far, probably favorite Star Wars movie ever. I was overwhelmed by it the first time, but I still knew that I liked it. Seen it 3 times now and I still do.

    I love Rian Johnson as a director, and I think the movie feels like a Rian Johnson movie, but it also nails the Star Wars feeling for me. I recognise that there are flaws, but none of them really bothered me. The Last Jedi is not what I expected it to be, but I am very happy that we got it anyway.

    My pros:
    - The entire cast pretty much knocks it out of the park.
    - Kylo Ren is a complex, well-written villain and Adam Driver does a fantastic job.
    - Mark Hamill gives his best performance of his entire career.
    - Carrie Fisher gives a very good performance, and gets more to do than in TFA.
    - Visually stunning.
    - John Williams delivers one of his best scores in recent years.
    - I was surprised many times.
    - All the comedy works for me.
    Also, Porgs.

    Cons:
    - Finn should have gotten more to do.
    - The pace is a little uneven.
    Canto Bight is probably the weakest part of the movie for me, but I dont really hate that either.
     
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  9. Porgtastic

    Porgtastic Rebel Trooper

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    Great movie,
    Different yes...but in a good way.

    Positives
    - The music......ohh the music.
    - Porgs
    - Mysterious complex heroine (Rey)
    - Equally mysterious and complex villain Kylo Ren
    - unexpected events (death Snoke)
    - Great visuals

    Negatives
    - No answers to important questions, but I don't necessary see that as negative since they can always save those for the next movies.
    - Humor not always funny


    How is the 3d of this movie by the way?
    I always watch 2d because the 3d sometimes suck .
    Should I still go see it in 3D?
     
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  10. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    IMAX do it!
     
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  11. hermiona52

    hermiona52 Clone Commander

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    Best SW movie for my, and some reasons why:
    Pros (for me):
    - Humor. All the jokes landed for me. From the very first one - Poe is completely in character, and he is the only one who believes it will work (BB8 says "I have bad feeling about this" and Leia agrees).
    - The most beautiful SW movie. The first space battle. Ach-To wide shoots, binary suns. Canto Bight city and casino. Crait.
    - Great music (which I started to really notice in a movie after listening to OST)
    - Best acting in a whole saga. All of them, even Rose (Kelly Marie Tran).
    - It's sometimes weird, like milking scene. Love it.
    - Leia using a Force. I like that it ties to her unconsciously using the Force when her life is in danger like in "Leia, Princess Of Alderaan" book.
    - Rey/Kylo/Luke dynamics is absolutely the best character driven aspects of the movie and it's the most important thing for me, it's what I want form SW movies. So it alone makes for me the most memorable thing, and beats for me Luke/Vader dynamics.
    - This whole theme of "Failure, the greatest teacher is" and "We are what they grow beyond". It's why every single story arc in TLJ works for me.
    - Luke story arc is just WOW. I absolutely love it. Him starting as a beaten person, who made a human mistake, which had horrendous consequences, he who loathed himself for being a "legend" he couldn't live up to, after reminder from Yoda, that no one is perfect (after all Yoda too was responsible for creating Vader nad Empire), he truly did sparked this legend to life at the end. He died as the most powerful Jedi, a true epitome of Jedi Master, who uses Force only to defence. And now to the end of the world, people around the Galaxy will tell themselves stories about legendary Luke Skywalker, who faced an entire First Order with his laser sword ;) and fooled them all. Best story arc in the SW saga.
    - I love Rey's story arc too. She was a lost girl, who didn't know what to do with her new powers, what was her place in all of this. She first wanted bring Luke back to fight, because she thought that they needed Luke to win, then when he refused, she thought Kylo, of Skywalker blood, was the last hope for the Resistance. Only at the end she realised she was the one, who Resistance truly needs, she, Rey scavanger from nowhere, is the hero they need.
    - Snoke's death. He died in the most disrespectful way possible - the way Dark Side "lords" should - at the top of their power, so full of themselves that they can't see the shadow of death behind their back. It was unexpected, quick, horrendous. It's the way it should be.
    - Entire Throne Room sequence. I was at the edge of my seat every time (four times). It's Star Wars at it's best.
    - Chewbacca piloting Falcon. What to add?
    - Luke and Yoda scene plus Luke and Leia scene. I had tears in my eyes everytime and I have a heart of a stone. Beautiful.
    - Luke's death with two suns. Just like above. So maybe I don't have a heart of a stone after all? :cool:
    - Rey: "How are we gonna rebuild Resistance from this?" Leia (holding Rey's hands): "We have all that we need". Shoot of all of Rebels in the Millenium Falcon with Leia and Rey in the centre. PERFECT.

    Cons (really small, don't really affect my experience with TLJ):
    - SuperLeia. I love that she uses the force, but her clothes made her look like a wizard. Or Mary Poppins.
    - Canto Bight is not as great as the rest of the movie. I would prefer more casino, less chase.
    - Rose could be better character.

    I just hope Phasma survived, only to come back in Episode IX for a few seconds to be defeated again, this time once and for all. Like a running joke through Sequel Trilogy.
     
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  12. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    Nice to have a civil discussion about the film, think their is a lot of misunderstanding between those who love the film and those who don't.
    • Those who like the film seem to assume that people who don't like it becuase it is different and doesn't live up to their fan theories
    • Those who didn't like the film just assume people are liking it becuase they think twists and surprises means automatically means good, and that they feel they should like it becuase its a Star Wars film(kind of like what happened with the Phantom Menace).
    I suspect in most cases these reasons are not true, so it will be nice to have a discussion about peoples real reasons for liking and disliking then film and the merits of those views, with out people just saying your wrong.

    I personally disliked the film, not becuase my fan theories didn't come true. I went into the film throughly expecting Reys parents to be no one, Snoke to be no more then a plot device whose back story may get filled out in books (granted i didn't expect him to die). I also expected a grumpy Luke who would play agaisnt what people expect from the character, who would then get one final heroic scene before dieing.

    I won't write my full review as i did that and it ended up been been ridiculously long:(but its here if anyone fancies a stupidly long read: https://letterboxd.com/mosley909/film/star-wars-the-last-jedi/ )

    But a main summary of some of the things i didn't like is:
    • The film is so obsessed with twists, misdirects, shocks and surprises that it begins to feel cheap. its just constant: Leia Dead, ow no she's not, Kylos gonna turn good ow, no he isn’t, Holdo is a coward/ wait no she’s not, Lukes come to save the day ow he's died ow wait it was just a projection ow no he is dead, they burnt the jedi books, ow wait no they didn't…….. it was like Rian Johnson was so obsessed with the theme of it not going the way you expect he felt he needed to have a misdirect every 5 mins.
    • The humour, it felt like a marvel film, and the droid humour with BB8 made the stuff in the prequels look subtle and adult.
    • So many of the plot lines seemed pointless or just didn't make sense: ships that can travel faster then light not been able to catch up with ships that can't. Pretty much everything with Canto Bight. Holdo not telling anyone her plan, the whole pointless mutiny storyline. If a ship can just light speed fly though a fleet destroying it why dont they do that all the time?
    • Kylo Ren becoming supreme leader. Don't get me wrong i love the idea of having a character like Kylo Ren rise to becoming the trilogies main villain half way through the trilogy, but the execution of it was awful, they spend a film and a two thirds making him seem like a conflicted and numerous times weak. then suddenly he off the plot device that was Snoke an he's supreme leader the trilogies big villain?
    • The disconnect between Force Awakens and the Last Jedi. the directors obviously had very different views about the type of films they want to make, which would be fine but when your talking about an interconnected trilogy of films, and one director hands off the story to the other and the next director just sort of throws the story away in a comedy way like Luke does the lightsaber then it hardly lends to a satisfying and coherent story.
    • Hux, did he think he was in a Panto?
    • Where it leaves us i mean what is their to look forward too? Kylo vs Rey round 3? we've seen it twice. can't say i'm chomping at the bit to see it a 3rd time. Kylo doesn't seem threatening, Hux is just comedy relief, all the other villains are dead, the new order can't be much of a threat i mean they have had a fleet blown up and its main weapon destroyed in the first one., not to mention its powerful leader dead and replaced with a kid with temper tantrum issues. Add that to the fact the resistance is about 8 people and one ship, then it doesn't look like either side is much of a threat to the galaxy.
    I'd also like to recommend Jermey Jahns spoiler review of the film: feel like it was pretty balanced and fair:
     
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  13. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    I think the vision of both directors and writers of TFA and TLJ is quite similar. Here are some of my views on the points you raise

    @the film is to obsesses with twists etc.....
    I don't think there are many misdirects. But what the movie does is play with audience expectation to make the story interesting and dynamic. There are a number of themes in this movie: The hero you imagined might not be the hero you meet (counts for the following relations: Poe/Holdo, Finn/ Rose, Rey/Luke). In the end of the movie that hero becomes everything you imagined and more. It is a reflection on the two main questions of this movie; Who is Luke Skywalker? What makes a hero? Luke throwing away the sabre might seem funny, but is a reflection of what Luke did at the end of ROTJ and what Obi Wan did in ANH. Its a reflection of a Jedi's higher wisdom. The other theme of this movie is: a direct fight (a young person's way of fighting) is not always the best fight. Sometimes not fighting is the best way to proceed (the old man's wisdom: Luke/ Old woman's wisdom: Holdo and Leia). Again you see this return in Poe, Finn, Rey, Rose, Holdo and Luke's arcs. These theme's alone explain many of the apparently 'sudden twists' in the movie.

    @The humor etc....
    Humor is a matter of taste. In the netherlands the humor is well received. The theatre laughs and applauds collectively. In some occasion like the BB8 and Canto Bight Mark Hamill cameo its only the youngsters that laugh. This movie knows that it has different audiences and needs to try and cater to all of these. Not liking a joke personally doesn't make it a bad movie.

    @Poitless plotlines....
    Canto Bight isn't a pointless plotline. Not only do our heroes need a master codebreaker who lives in a natural environment for codebreakers (a casino-- a typical WWII movie trope), Canto Bight also serves to characterize Rose and Finn. We learn what motivates Rose in her fight for the resistance. She hates inequality. The bad that lurks behind the seemingly beautiful. It characterizes Finn, through Rose's view of Canto Bight Finn learns why the resistance's fight is something he should identifiy with. Previously he only identified with Rey. He wants to save Rey. He wants to fight for what he loves, not against what he hates. After Canto Bight he becomes more motivated to fight what he hates. DJ is a mirror to what Finn would have become if he had ran on Takodana. A cynic whose motto is Dont Join.......DJ. At the end of the movie, Finn is ready to sacrifice himself, now fighting what he hates. He has learned that from Rose on Canto Bight. He is then rescued at the last moment by Rose. She's tells him that saving what we love is more important than fighting what we hate. She had learned that from Finn. They both have become more like each other. Canto Bight made this turnabout in their motivations possible.

    - Ships hyperspace: just a typical villain trope in a Star Wars movie. Hux doesn't think it's necessary to jump in new ships or cut of the resistance advance because he assumes The First Order will win anyway. In the end he's of course mistaken. You see this with any villain in Star Wars. Hubris trumps common sense. They overlook the small and insignificant. That's why the good guys always win. They're underestimated by people with absolute strength and power. That power blinds them

    - Holdo: Holdo symbolizes that the direct fight is not always the wisest solution. She is there only for Poe's development. He meets her and thinks she's a hero, but then appears to disappoint. She seemingly runs from the fight whereas Poe is a brash person who wants a direct confrontation. In the end, it turns out that Holdo was in fact the voice of reason and that running was the best option. She sacrifices herself for the greater good. Poe has now learned what true leadership is. When the attack on the battering ram cannon seems to fail,Poe orders a retreat. He has become a true and wise leader.

    @ Kylo Ren....
    The fact that he appears weak makes him different and also unpredictable. One of the themes of these new movies is that behind a mask there is a person with human emotions. Kylo's empathy makes him weak, but also unpredictable and very dangerous. It helped him overcome Snoke, turn Rey against Luke and almost turn Rey. His empathy actually makes Kylo very powerful.

    @ disconnected TFA and TLJ...
    I don't think there is a disconnection. Rey, Finn, Poe and Kylo's arcs are natural extensions of their greatest dilemma's and fears in TFA. Luke throwing away the lightsabre is a natural extension of the higher wisdom he had gained at the end of ROTJ. He just does the same thing. It also visualizes for the audience the theme: 'the heroes you imagine might not be the heroes you meet'. It shows LUke not as a legend, but a human with human emotions.

    @ Hux.
    Even Hux has an arc. He begins as the hubristic fascist who overlooks the small and is overconvinced by his command of overwhelming force. His hubrism is mocked and made ridiculous by his enemies. It shows him to be "a rabit curr". But when Kylo takes command as supreme leader, it is now Hux who is the voice of wisdom. He has learned that his former hubristic self didn't land him the job he aspired to. Kylo naturally ignores his wisdom. He doesn't keep the rabit curr on a tight rope.

    @ looking forward to....
    What to look forward too? What does Kylo's new world look like? What sort of a leader will he be? Will he do what he said he would do? Destroy Rey, destroy everything? Who will win? Will anyone help the resistance? Was Kylo speaking the truth? Will Rey turn dark or light? Will she defeat Kylo? Will Finn confront his past and save people who were like him indoctrinated by the first order? Will the forces of good survive etc. etc. There's enough to look forward too and perhaps even better so much we haven't even imagined.

    @Jeremy Jahns. I really don't like his reviews, whether its a good or a bad one. It's vulgar and I really don't consider him to be very smart. I only trust written reviews published in verifiable media.

    So no hard feelings. I just disagree
     
    #13 Ammianus Marcellinus, Dec 29, 2017
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  14. TheTruTru

    TheTruTru Rebelscum

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    I didn't like the movie, but I think I can like it a lot more depending on what happens in episode 9. I've seen a lot of people who liked the movie say the reason people didn't like the movie was because of their own "head cannon". And for me at least, that's not true. I had a lot of questions from TFA that I was eager to see answered, but didn't have any pre-conceived notions of how I wanted to see them answered. I thought a lot of the theories about who Rey's parents were & who Snoke was were intriguing, but I would have been perfectly fine with Rey being random & Snoke being a new character (I didn't need him to be Plagueis). My main issue was how the answer to these questions were either not explained, or barely explained.

    For example, Rey's parents were nobodies. That's fine, but can I at least get an explanation as to why she's picked up the force so quickly with so very little training? Snoke, at this point anyway, is also a nobody. That's also fine, but can I get an explanation as to where he has been this whole time? Literally any kind of backstory would do, but we got nothing. And then there were the questions that just got straight up ignored. Why did Anakin's lightsaber call to Rey? How did Maz get the lightsaber? Who/where are the KOR?

    That being said, there were parts of the film that I enjoyed. The opening space fight with Poe was dope. While I was disappointed in the lack of answers regarding Snoke & how he was handled, the Kylo/Rey fight scene is one of the most badass moments in Star Wars (though I think it would have been better to save it for episode 9). I also liked the last scene with Luke and how he went out (though I also think that would have been better to save for episode 9).

    But in the end, the reasons I mentioned above, along with others (Finn/Rose storyline was a waste of time, Leia Poppins, some odd timing of humor, the slowest chase sequence of all time, etc) ended up outweighing the good moments for me.
     
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  15. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    I liked the film. I've seen it twice and plan to see it again, now in IMAX 3D this Saturday.

    I'm a long time fan, the type who adores the OT and finds the PT watchable but not great. So far, I have mixed feelings about the ST. I enjoyed TFA for what it is, a good movie, but didn't find it to be a satisfying Star Wars experience. No to par. I found TFA too similar to ANH which left me hungry for new stuff, which TLJ did a good job at, in my opinion.

    My best friend also liked TLJ quite a bit but my sister and brother and law did not like it, at all. All four of us are long time SW fans who adore the OT and don't like the PT very much, although I find I like the PT a bit more than they.

    We had a long talk of why they didn't like TLJ while I did like it a lot. They explained their reasons, I explained mine, and in the end we concluded that they didn't liked it primarily because the movie challenged their suspension of disbelief to a point where the experience was not satisfying to them anymore.

    They found what many in these boards are also stating having trouble with. And, I'm sure many of us who liked it can understand why. While I accepted most of the common issues that have been raised, they did not. Then people make a decision on if they liked the movie or not, and then it's the usual battle of arguments where haters pick on everything and lovers try to defend everything.

    If I were to summarize the biggest offenders to people who didn't like the movie, that challenge their suspension of disbelief, of what makes a Star Wars movie, or just their personal preferences, these would be it, in my opinion:
    • The humor. It is indeed a matter of taste. Some people like it, others are neutral about it, others don't like it. I think they took a big risk with the humour. The biggest being the Hux / Poe dialogue at the beginning, Luke throwing the lightsaber like he did and possibly the steam iron joke. I confess that for a few seconds I felt like I was watching Spaceballs when watching the Hux/Poe dialog and the Steam iron joke, I kid you not. However, my suspension of disbelief hold, but I imagine others didn't. I don't think Porgs were the issue. We all know that they are there because the kids love that kind of stuff. You can hear them laugh a lot in the theater.
    • The Canto Bight plotline. That it is worthless, pointless. Because, it basically doesn't work, "wasn't needed", I feel is the criticism. And, that if Holdo had told Poe the plan, the Canto Bight plot would not have existed in the first place. People who liked the movie understand, or shall we say, accept, why Holdo didn't tell Poe the plan (she didn't trust him, didn't have to) and that, well, sometimes things just don't work out. Of course, not everybody is on board for this kind of stuff. It's in their right to prefer a more formulaic flow of events.
    • Luke's story arc. Let's face it, this is divisive (starting from Luke himself - Mark Hamill). Here the opinion spectrum is larger, from people who adored it to the ones who hated it. I suspect that people who hate the PT would never align with/understand this version of Luke. So, let's accept the fact that many people simply did not like the movie because of this. It's understandable. Even I who liked the movie a lot also have qualms about what they did with Luke. I understand why they did it, and I like it personally, but I can understand perfectly why others did not. And there's very little if anything at all one can do about this. Luke's plotline is so central to the film that if you did not like it you probably won't like the movie as a whole. It simply will not work for you.
    • TFA's build up and expectations and TLJ lukewarm answers (for many). Who is Rey? Who are her parents? Why is Luke in that island? Who is Snoke? Who are the KoR? The force vision explanation. Why is Rey so strong with the force? Why does Luke's lightsaber call for Rey? Many of these questions were left unanswered or were found to receive lukewarm answers. The task was difficult. JJ, agreeing or disagreeing, did a good job in creating the suspense and let the people imagination and speculation go wild. It's his style. Well, I'm sure Rian did the best he could, but some of the damage was already done. Many are even in denial about central events. Is Snoke really dead? Is Rey really a nobody? Many are still in disbelief. The build up from TFA was so big, that many feel the answers (or the lack of them) are unsatisfying.
    • The chase scene, Leia poppins, hyperspace ramming, bombs dropping in space and other general nitpicks. I've seen the movie twice and I feel I understood the chase scene way better the second time I've seen the movie. It's not easy to follow every detail, every line that is said, which is crucial if you want to understand and accept this movie's central plotline. The fact that the transports were cloacked when they departed from the cruiser (I didn't catch this at first). The fact that DJ eavesdrop on Poe, Finn and Rose about the cloacked ships (I didn't get it fully the first time either). The second time it was clear. Why couldn't the FO destroy the Resistance ships, ask for reinforcements or something? I understand why now, but was left wondering about that in my first view. So, the whole chase thing is a bit too compacted and convoluted. It is rich in detail and very well done in my opinion, from both a logical and military tactics point of view. But, it is too much to ask for a first viewing, I think, so it's natural that many didn't like it because they didn't understand it. Leia surviving the explosion, the vacuum of space is probably not the worst issue. Then the hyperspace ramming, which can open a precedent for some, as that has the potential to be a very powerful tactical that could/should be used more often to take down capital ships by taking advantage of the mass and sheer momentum of the collision.
    In summary, I think TLJ is brave, different, definitely not formulaic and unexpected. And that's why I think it has been so divisive for fans.

    I'm going to watch it for the third time, this Saturday. I believe TLJ has the "the more you watch it, the more you appreciate it" quality to it, which I don't feel TFA had, but the contrary, in my opinion.

    So, my hope is that a lot of the fans who didn't like TLJ will have the opportunity to appreciate it more with time, or at least they have a good chance to like it more. Not because of me, or because of the people who liked it need validation, but because all Star Wars fans deserve to have a good time seeing the latest SW film, whatever it is.

    At the end of the day, I appreciate and feel that Lucasfilm, Disney and the entire crew behind this movie really did their best to offer a satisfying movie experience to as many fans as possible. At least I think we can all agree that the task of doing a SW movie is monumental. If you really can't enjoy TLJ, well, there will be other opportunities down the corner.
     
    #15 greenbalrog, Dec 29, 2017
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  16. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    I get your point and I can see how someone who doesn't follow SW deeply have to suspension of disbelief a lot. But in the context in the SW world. Everything we see in the TLJ (force powers, bombs in space, etc) has been seen on other material and lets say if they had watch Rebels. They would of saw Leia's scene was very similar to what Kanan did and the Crystal Foxes on Crait is a nice call back to the Loth Wolves in Rebels.

    As for Leia, I know a lot people make fun of that scene but it works in the context of what we've seen in other materials. As I mentioned earlier, Kanan was pushed into space by Darth Maul, well he force grab his was back into the ship. And Ezra was in space riding on a space whale with no protection (how crazy that is, but make sense in the already established lore). Those two events established that force users have the ability to survive longer in the vacuum of space than a regular human. Research has shown that a human can survive around 15 secs. in space. I get it it's a cartoon but let me give an on screen example of force users surviving extreme environments.

    The fight between Anikan and Obi-Wan in Episode 3. They spent majority of the time fighting over an ocean of lava. They both didn't suffocate due to the toxic fumes and none of them got bunt (except for Anikan at the end). There is no way that a normal human could of been around that much lava for that long period of time with out getting sick and or getting burnt. So that's an on screen example how a force user can tolerate extreme environments longer than a normal human.

    But wait, those people you mention are jedi or former jedi and had formal traning but Leia didn't. I have an answer to that as well. It was already established that Leia is already force sensitive. She heard Luke calling to her in ESB and she could "feel" that Luke wasn't on the 2nd Death Star when it blew up. She did that no with training what so ever. In ROTJ Luke and Leia has this conversation;

    Luke: If I don't make it back, you're the only hope for the Alliance.

    Princess Leia: Luke, don't talk that way. You have a power I don't understand and could never have.

    Luke: You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to use it as I have. The Force runs strong in my family. My father has it. I have it. And... my sister has it. Yes. It's you, Leia.

    Princess Leia: I know. Somehow, I've always known.

    This shows that Leia is very powerful in the force (hence Ben) and has the ability to figure out the force over time. A force pull or grab is a very basic ability for any force user that requires no training. It been 30 years since that conversation with Luke, so you're telling me not a single point in that 30 year gap that she didn't receive an ounce of training or even accidentally "discover" a force power? Also one could say that she's been hiding her use of her powers only to use in extreme situations. There was a case where a man was trapped underneath a heavy boulder out in a desert. He was in a life or death situation, some how his body took over and he was able to lift the boulder high enough for him to be no longer under the boulder. There's been plenty more of other real life documented cases where humans performed super human strength to get out of danger in order for them to survive. Leia was in a life or death situation, you don't think her body could subconsciously save itself buy using the force?

    So the Leia's scene make sense and is very plausible for her character. Also don't forget Carrie was pretty involved while they were writing Leia scenes. Maybe it's because they filmed the scene weird? Maybe she should of used her other arm and pull a superman rather than a mary poppins? Who cares, it doesn't matter what her arm placement was. That scene fit in line with Leia's character. This wasn't a directed at you or anything, but for the people who disliked that scene without seeing it with the context of the already established lore.
     
    #16 deadmanwalkin009, Dec 29, 2017
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  17. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    Not hating on your opinion but you can basically remove this point. Since she's in the vacuum of space, it would only take a nudge to move you in one direction indefinitely. They didn't incorporate "force flying" at all into this movie, just showed that Leia could use a basic force pull to move herself toward a ship.

    I do agree with "force encapsulation" though, it's hard for me to get past that each time I've watched the movie.
     
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  18. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    Oh, totally not taken as directed at me. I have no problem with that and I understand what you mean. What I was saying, and I know you'd agree, is that a good amount of the SW fandom would get their suspension of disbelief challenged by that and other scenes quite easily. And you don't have to have watched Rebels either. I didn't, but I'm on board for Leia being force sensitive (well established in OT days, I agree, but still a Skywalker) and for being able to preserve herself way better than a non-force sensitive user in space. That's quite ok.

    The thing is, there are many types of SW fans, with many degrees of understanding of the SW universe, ranging from all the trilogies to TV series and books. Then, there's each own's personal sensitivities, backgrounds and various degrees of willingness to suspend their disbelief if something doesn't "quite fit" the understanding they have of SW. Heck, some people come from the OT alone. Huge fans, no doubt, but they hate the PT, didn't read a book and haven't watched any TV series. I think those will have a harder time liking this movie.

    I mean, if you don't understand/know about the whole Jedi Order hubris thing from the PT, how will you understand a thing Luke is saying in this film? If you don't embrace the fact that anybody can be a Jedi (and there are literally hundreds of them in the PT), or at least can be force sensitive, while you get only a handful in the OT and haven't watched Rebels, how will you understand/accept this force-sensitiviy thing, broom boy, etc.

    In conclusion, there are many types of SW fans out there, coming from many sources, enjoying different trilogies and watching different TV series. And that's why you get so many different reactions to TLJ, I feel. In that sense, TFA was more formulaic, and heck, almost a remake of ANH, and that's why there wasn't so big of a divide. It had other problems, like not pushing the boundaries further.

    As someone has said in another thread, JJ was criticized by not taking risks, and Rian is being criticized by perhaps having taken too many.
     
    #18 greenbalrog, Dec 29, 2017
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  19. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    Well I didn't mean a literally flying. Her and Kanan used a force pull or grab (whatever the proper term its called). I probably should of choose my word carefully. When I first saw that scene, I thought it was little weird but after I've calmed down and took time to process it, it didn't really bother me due to seeing it on Rebels and I think TCW had something similar. It's been a while since I seen it. So that help take the blow for me and thought it was cool to see something similar finally shown on the big screen.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2017 ---
    So true!! I remember people complaining that "Disney isn't going to take any chances." "that they don't have the balls to do something different", "There not going to kill off everyone in RO, that's too dark for Disney" (oops, Looks like that did happen) and looks like TLJ proved them wrong for doing something ballsy and or taking risks. People wanted an "original" story, new ideas, and a "ballsy" movie, and when they do receive something that did exactly that, they get mad because they didn't think it would actually happen or it wasn't the risk that they had in mind. Someone also stated else where that "TLJ is the movie that SW fans wasn't ready for but the movie that SW needed".
     
    #19 deadmanwalkin009, Dec 29, 2017
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  20. Master Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn

    Master Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn Clone Trooper

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    I love 3D movies. Disney/Marvel are always solid 3D conversions.
    If you liked the movie, I recommend it in 3D. I don't think there as many WOW moments in 3D as were in TFA, but definitely entertaining. A solid 3D conversion that does not take away from the film.

    Here's a decent site for 3D reviews.
    https://www.cinemablend.com/news/17...-buy-the-right-star-wars-the-last-jedi-ticket
     
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