Last Jedi Civil Discussion Thread (No Hatred for Anothers Opinion)

FIFY, since you wanted to keep it factually accurate.

 

I don't quite understand this thinking. I get where it comes from; thinking of Mickey Mouse and movies for kids, but...has anyone thinking that something is too dark for Disney forgotten how twisted and dark Disney can be?
*French accent smoking a cigarette*
Hey. You like cute deer right kid? You like this one? He's so cute with his mother, no?
F*** him! Bam! His mother is Dead! He's on his own now! Damned to be free. What do you think of that, eh!? Life is hard. Learn to find beauty in spite of terror and hell that is reality. *Flips ash and walks away*

The Black Hole, an old Disney Movie literally has the entire cast into hell - no literally; after dealing with zombies in space, they are cast into literal hell. No, there's no winning here; they just left it at that.

Or Black Cauldron.

Or Disney's other name, Miramax. You know, Pulp Fiction.

Disney knows dark, and more powerfully, Disney knows how to get away with dark and twisted material in a G rating and walk off like they just sang an angel's song.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I was rewatching the last jedi tonight and I realised something. Apologies if this doesn't belong here, I'm new and haven't learned how to navigate yet. Anyway, back to the question.

Luke says he took Ben and a dozen other force-sensitives to start a jedi academy, and he also says that Ben and a handful of his other students turned on him and slaughtered the rest of his students. My question links back to the force vision in tfa.
I'm going to assume that the figures standing around Kylo Ren/Ben in the vision were his knights of ren, although this may not be the case. I counted six knights (not including Kylo) which would have left six students to be killed. If that was the case, why were there so many bodies on the ground around Rey and the knights, unless she wasn't seeing the scene from the jedi academy, but something else important in the past or even possibly the future?

I just kind of picked up on this, but it doesnt seem like anyone else is talking about it?

 

Hi, and welcome to the forum!

I think it was Pablo Hidalgo who confirmed that the scene in the rain from Rey's Forceback in TFA is NOT from the incident at Luke's temple/academy/thing. He said the guy Ren kills in the vision is a "clan leader." So unless the scene is something from the past we haven't heard about yet, it's still possible it is a vision of the future.

 

Someone else here pointed out to me that Ren didn't have his helmet in the forest in TFA when he ignited the saber, but he did in the Forceback. So the Forceback isn't necessarily literal.

 

Oh I agree (I never doubted them) but go back and look at the early comments of Episode 7 and especially Rogue One. You'll see people saying that stuff and I'll be shaking my head everytime I see someone make that comment.

Also people forget that Disney owns Miramax which did Pulp Fiction and other Rated-R movies. Since now they acquired Fox, they said that Deadpool 2 will stay Rated R. There's also talks about creating a Rated R division for Marvel movies or something along those lines.

 

The movie was garbage they killed our childhood hero with a non meaningful death, we see no lightsaber battle scene with Luke he was Force out to death that was stupid. making an image of his self projected killed Luke, how stupid that was to kill off Luke in such a lame way.

RJ sage conflicts JJ story just looks how, in TFA Finns leaves the First Order because he does not want to kill for them , and he helps Poe escape and he needs a pilot because he does not know how to fly, but in TLJ he wakes right out a coma from TFA, and now Finn knows how to fly, he flew pod with Rose to Canto Bright that is a huge contradiction to the Force Awakens that driven the whole movie, now he wakes out a coma flying.

Rest of the story plot that does not make sense Luke going to kill his nephew because he has darkside in him, but that last saga Luke tell Obi that he can't kill his father Vader and he see their light left in him but not Kylo he going to kill, how lame and stupid. Then he tells Rey he give her three lesson and the third lesson they edit out what the hell!!!!! LAME MOVIE!

So Rey tells Luke when she has a force mary sue vision that she did not see Luke with the Force and he cut him self off, but we see right after Luke uses the Force how he cut him self from the Force but uses it, he used it to contact Leia when she was in the Comma, he use it when he catches Rey talking with Kylo Ren and Luke destroyed the hut, he uses the Force when Rey beats him to the ground and he use the force to prevent himself from falling real bad. What a lame lame lame story plot he cut hims self from the force but use it !

Snoke, Rian Johnson Snoke's theory suck! That make this big tall guy, who has the power to turn Luke's students, Luke's own blood, he has the power to put the mind of Rey and Kylo together but he can not see the saber next to him turning to kill him!!!!!! How lame is that!!!

Then Finn, in the marketing they show Finn in the Last Jedi with a blaster, FINN DOES NOT USE THE BLASTER NOT EVEN ONE TIME IN THE MOVIE!!!!!

That was stupid, he did not use the blaster not even once!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why the focus on him using a blaster?

Finn scenes with rose was poorly written and edited, Finn goes to the pod to escape he drops his bag behind his leg outside the pod touching him, not in the pod, but when Rose looks in the pod the bag on the chair in the POD WHAT THE HELL!!!!! Lame editing they did not even care about him enough to edit that part correct. Rose remind me of bad aisan comic relief that only asian culture understand. Then she diss Finn and then force her self to kiss Finn, she should died in that scene or at least let her flyy into the cannon!!

Movie has a lot of plot holes this is just some of them.

 

What's odd is the fact that in the entire movie I can only remember one blaster shot, Rose in futility against Phasma, and then there were the two stuns by Holdo and Leia.

 

Im just going address this point because there is a lot of misconceptions in this part.

First off, majority of Snoke theories honestly did suck (saying he was Ezra, Darth Maul, Jar Jar, Mace Windu, etc) so he was mostly right about that.

Secondly, Rian wrote the script of TLJ while JJ was filming Episode 7, so all those Snoke theories wasn't around and he didn't know about them. Im sorry but Rian or any other directors is not going to rewrite their story a year before the film is suppose to come out to satisfy someone's theory.

Thirdly, Snoke was never going to be the main bad guy in ST. That role since day 1 has always belong to Kylo Ren. Rian originally was going to kill off Snoke in his movie which he sticked to his guns and did. Snoke was just a place holder for Kylo and his death was just a stepping stone to push Kylo's story forward. We already had 6 movies that had an apprentice and master role. We don't need another. The Rule of 2 died with Vader.

Fourthly, Rian had no intentions on giving Snoke any back story because it wouldnt make sense in the narritive that was being told. His back story doesn't matter to the characters that he was interacting with (Kylo, Rey, Hux) and two of them probably knows his story. Had Snoke said "I'm Darth Pleaguis, a former sith master that survived the assassination attempt from my former apprentice" Rey would of been like "Darth who?" Then resumed fighting/getting tourtured by Snoke.

Lastly, to address him being killed. His death was no different than how The Emperor died. You're telling me a powerful sith master that killed his former master, that played the jedi like a dang fiddle but couldn't sense Vader conflict and see Vader turn to grab him? Or that he couldn't sense Luke slip right pass his noise dispite Vader telling him that it was happening. Snoke was so focus on Kylo wanting to kill Rey that the light saber he was sensing wasn't the one that struck him dead. Kylo pretty much pulled the same trick that Palpatined did with Yoda about concealing his true identity. The Emperor had just of a lame death as Snoke.

JJ is to be at blame if not more than Rian. He's the one created the character without giving us any form of back ground on him. It's almost like JJ gave Rian points A, T, and X and he has fill in the rest.

Also ask about the Tragedy of Darth Pleguis the Wise. His death happen the same way as Snoke's and the Emperor's death.

 

Then most likely Kylo Ren's death be the same.

 

Thanks.

3D it is next time.

 

I only watched TLJ once, and don't plan to watch it again until it's on Netflix or something. I'll start with negatives, but there are positives if you read on.

I wasn't a fan. The movie lost me very early on with the Poe and Hux "humor", as well as Luke tossing the lightsaber. I had a hard time getting back into it from there as I'd already had my bubble of disbelief busted. I agree with most of the issues others have stated with the movie, and unfortunately the list is pretty long, which kept me out of it for the duration. Worst SW experience for me since AotC.

All that being said, I can see eventually accepting TLJ much in the same way I accept the PT( Just don't ask me to defend either, because I can't). Just like the PT, there are many things within TLJ (and in the ST as a whole) that for me is unforgivable, but I love SW enough that I'll come back full bore next trilogy and on the spin offs. Episode 9, I reserve judgment and is a toss up whether I'll take it in at theaters (it certainly won't be opening weekend, I'll want to hear feed back from fans and some spoiler reviews, I just don't trust this direction). I think the trilogy could be redeemable, but if they redeem it for me, many of those who like it and have found "explanations" will probably feel cheated. I respect that and personally I'd almost rather they don't retcon anything and keep this trilogy for those fans, while making something for fans like me down the road.

Taken on its own as a sci-fi, I think it would be a good movie, much better than the PT. The dialogue is better by leaps and bounds, and that to me is what makes the PT a bit of a chore to re-watch. The musical score was good. The acting is solid. It's within the context of the SW universe as I see it (I'm more of an OT guy) that it doesn't fit. That's not going to change regardless on how many people try to convince me otherwise.

That being said, I like reading fan theories to explain things. I hope JJ and his team of writers take some of the better ones and add it to Ep9 to explain things, as some are very good. (Rey being so good in the Force because she believes so much, unlike Luke as one such theory that helps,) while others I hope they steer clear of because it sets a very broad precedent for the SW universe going forward (Rey essentially downloading Jedi skills and knowledge from Kylo during Ep7 mind rape). Again my opinion though.

So far for me the whole Disney take over of this property has been more fail than success, but that there are so many areas to explore and stories to tell, that it goes without saying it should hit home with me, simply by law of averages, at some point. I'm optimistic on the future of SW, pessimistic on the ST as a whole. Maybe Ep9 meets me and other fans half way.

(I'd very much like an explanation as to why the hyperspace attack isn't used in the past and into the future. Maybe something like it creates some sort of space anomaly, because otherwise it will be hard to explain why the resistance and other groups just don't keep using this. In a way, it's kind of like the resistances own DS.)

 

If TLJ was such a bad movie it would have a 100% negative backlash, and that's not the case.
The reason why ratings are so divided can be explained by one thing.

FANBASE!

The hard core fanbase is disappointed because of what became of their favourite hero Luke Skywalker, and therefore the whole movie became a letdown for them.

Then you have the regular fans and the new (young) fans.
They mostly liked the movie because of the new characters and not having that same connection with Luke Skywalker and the old cast.

I am a regular fan who happen to like the new fresh characters.
I regret what happened to Luke but that didn't spoil the whole movie for me.

 

I'm going to go way outside of my normal position of never attempting to apply rational logic to any Star Wars movie since they're allegories and most of the decisions in the films are logically idiotic choices in all reality, and because applying realistic concepts in speculative form around Star Wars is about as useful as applying the same to the a Christian Gospel (I am not insulting Christianity in this - it's simply not the point of the writing to employ simple and rational explanations regarding its content), and I'm going to venture a guess that, knowing that each side pays for their ships via providers such as Bight, throwing cruisers at ships as a go-to heavy weapon is probably not very cost effective, and I get the sensation that this group doesn't have an easy time procuring funds at this point.

Let me put it this way. People have flown planes into targets in human history. We know it's possible, but we don't do it.
We don't because it's extremely bad economic use of resources, both human and equipment.

Now, the real reason is that it was a great allegorical moment where Holdo flips and pulls a Poe move, as well as the scene is part of a trio of splits along with Snoke and the Saber, which, as a trilogy, mark the middle of the film.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

Sorry took me while to reply wanted to do your post justice.

I get you point about themes, but their are a lot of misdirects in this film, as i listed in my original post and could probably come up with quite a few more, my issues weren't with the themes of the film, it was the film built around those themes. For me The constant use of misdirects was one of those issues, as by the end of the film they took away from what the point of a twist or misdirect is meant to achieve. If you do it all the time then they cease to be effective and the audience after a while just goes whats the point paying attention to the story becuase your just gonna pull a 180 on me.

a fair point humour is subjective. I guess my issues with humour where two fold,
1, That it they took me out of the movie to offen i felt like i was watching a sketch show, the "can he hear me stuff", Luke tossing the lightsaber felt like joke pieces, i dunno if you have ever seen Iron Man 3, but the bit where they find out the bloke playing what was supposedly the main villain just turned out to be a drunk actor, to often the humour in this film reminded me of that scene, it didn't feel like it belonged in the movie it felt like a sketch shoved in the middle of a film.
2, The droid humour, the prequels have been utterly ridiculed for their use of the droids as comic relief, for me the use of BB8 in this film made the comedy in the prequels look subtle.

Well it is a point less plot line in many ways, first if Holdo had just told them their plan they they wouldn't be bothering, secondly if the New order had just jumped in front of them they wouldnt need to.
I get what your saying about Finn developing, but really out of all the character development that was needed in this film, you could of achieved this development with Finn with a few lines about what he went through in the force awakens. For me this whole section of film was wrote to give Finn something to do. Like a character returning for the second season of a tv show but doesn't really have a story line so they have to force one.
Again here your main arguemnt why it works is, well the theme is.... you can't just have people do things becuase of a theme you want in the film, it has to make sense in the plot too, and this whole plot line just felt included to give actors summit to do.

This feels a little weak, i mean i get their star wars villains and so like bond villains thick, but at no point any one any where addressing the fact that they could just jump to in front of them seems very odd, its like the Johnson went lets not mentioning it in the hope that no one in the audience notices this glaring plot hole in a story line that takes up over an hour of the movie.

Again i don't have a problem with what she symbolises, but a film has to make sense and not just have a load of symbology. The director is very obviously leading the audience down the path of believing Holdo is incompetent, why? why is she hiding her plan, is she worried about spies? what? they don't address it they jus lead the audience down a path causing a load of nonsense things to happen, mutiny the whole Finn adventure.... just for her to go actually i had a plan all along i just didn't want to tell you. For me it just came across as weak lazy writing and another misdirect.

This feels a little weak, your basically arguing becuase he seems weak and has been portrayed as weak he is actually strong? That feels like clutching at straws a bit, but okay lets say your right. What do you do with that? you have a main villain who hasn't been made to seem strong who doesn't feel like much of a threat to our main hero, you are gonna have to do some pretty sensational story telling to make Rey feel in any kind of jeopardy at all when they have their inevitable show down in the third film.
I mean i suppose you could play to that and have Rey be over confident which doesn't really fit with her character and have Kylo surprise her and defeat her, but even then you always feel kylo is gonna have a temper tantrum blow it.
What ever the decide to do with him its going to be hard to accept the audience fear him because they have spent two films portraying him as a weak teenage like character partial to having paddies. So going from that to been a menacing villain the heroes have to struggle to over come is gonna be a hard sell.

Again i don't agree, first the Force awakens very clearly set up questions it wants the audiences to pick up, and the Last Jedi very obviously feels like it doesn't want to go down the direction the force awakens set outs. Watching them back to back just felt utterly jarring, like some one had only read the blurb of the force awakens wrote the script.

As for Luke doing that becuase it shows what he learned in return of the jedi, i don't buy that anyone been handed a lightsaber that belonged to your dad, was then yours that your dad then cut your hand of while you where holding it and it disappeared likely forever is then handed to you, would some one just throw it over their head without even asking a few questions. That scene was obviously done to shock audiences, and take the film in a different direction after the force awakens. I mean the next scene is even Luke getting changed out of his jedi robes. If JJ had designed Luke to be this grumpy little hermit why was he standing their in Jedi robes, that he obviously never wears.

Its just that one director had a vision the second director had a different vision, and thats fine, but you need to blend them together and my personal opinion is that they didn't do a very good job of that.

He may have a small arc, but when one of the only two villains left wouldn't feel out of place in Panto that doesn't feel in anyway menacing, he's a comedy relief character, in a film that really needed a menacing villain.

Well i imagine Kylos new world will look pretty similar to what we sore at the end of the Last Jedi, him trying to chase down bits of the resistance and having a tantrum when it doesn't go like he wants. Maybe he could finally move the New Order away from been an Empire knock off, that would be nice to see and would make sense considering the theme of killing the past.
What they can't do is just have Rey tempted by the dark again and Kylo tempted by the light, it would just be repeating itself from this movie an with Kylo also the Force Awakens, doing it again would just be repetitive. They can't go back on whose Reys parents are now it would feel cheap and get rid of any effect it had in the last Jedi.
Look their are things Disney could do to make it interesting, have Rey train a new group of jedi and have them battle agaisnt the hopefully finally to appear knights of Ren. A stormtropper rebellion would also be fun, but that would again make the villians look weak, if their troops turn agaisnt them then they don't really feel like much of a threat to the galaxy, which is going to be a hard well anyway considering just how much they have lost in the first two films, unless they are going to explain how they have an inexhaustible supply of ships and troops.
Disney could also do something cool with the ending, maybe Kylo wins? becuase at this stage if Disney goes in with a straight up hero having to defeat an evil enemy storyline with just another show down between Kylo and Rey with Rey coming out top, that would be incredibly boring. So they have gone down the route of shocking audiences and they have to follow that through with Episode 9, hopefully with a story that is a little more coherent around it and not quite as many misdirects.

Thats a really bizarre opinion some of the greatest opinions, wise words, speeches have come from spoken word. Plus some people are better at speaking then they are writing, should they be thought less off just becuase they vocalise instead of commit their thoughts to paper?
Plus if you only trust written reviews in verifiable media, then whats the point of you expressing your reviews and thoughts on the film, or me of anyone on this forum, are you saying unless your opinion is published then its worthless? thats a bizarre thing to think when you have obviously, judging by the amount of posts you have written, spent a lot of time sharing your views.

If you don't like the review or the reviewer, completely fair enough but just writing everyones opinion off(including your own) who doesn't have their review published is a bit harsh.

Any way i just shared that becuase i thought it was a good unbiased review from an obvious star wars fans that looks at the good and bad of the film, if you disagree thats totally fine

Of course not, honestly i'm utterly envious of the people who like this film. Its Star Wars I want to love it. I unfortunately just think the film is a complete mess, but i really wish i didn't.

 

It's really easy to enjoy all of Star Wars.

Watch it as if it's a religious story, and that you're a kid learning the religion's gospels.

We're on Star Wars Chapter 8, The Last Jedi, in The Gospel according to Yoda; written posthumously, naturally. It wouldn't be a proper gospel if folks went around writing these things while they were alive. You end up with paradoxes of identity, and it's difficult to do your laundry with people ringing the door and phone every minute to ask for clarification on a point. The afterlife is a very good place to write quietly from. Besides, socks don't seem to go missing there for some reason.

Cheers!
Jayson

 

thanks for the tip, unfortunately i was the annoying kid at church who use to pick flaws in religious stories and ive grown up to not be in anyway way religious a large part of which is because the bible has to many plot holes

but thanks for the idea

 

I was, and am the same.
Star Wars is where I play pretend and let symbolism and allegory take the lead and check reality at the door.
I know what I will be watching will have started with a bunch of iconic allegorical running theme moments that use a narrative to get those moments to have an excuse to be presented.
I know that the imagery and metaphore of the moment will be the point and not the logical path it took to get there.
They're spawned from Lucas' interest in cinematic tonal poetry, world religion, and philosophy as he thought could best be commercialized. THX speaks volumes about his style.
Everyone since has had to use his very elaborate formula of juxtaposed chiasmas moments of iconic allegory.

It's not going to make realistically rational sense.
It's just an excuse to get to the shot of the Knight against the Demon who is the Knight's own son, born a Demon due to the Knight's betrayal of his betrothed on the night of his wedding.

It's a live action fairy tale story book.
Have fun with it!

Cheers!
Jayson

 

They also gave us Dogma......which is also subversive and great.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2017 ---

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