Last Jedi Civil Discussion Thread (No Hatred for Anothers Opinion)

That chase was such a Spielberg moment. Loved it!

 

Okay, before I get into my thoughts: I just want to make a critique about this post. Namely, for not having a mixed option. This is something I just cannot stand nowadays when discussing movies, TV shows etc. is this idea of being so binary about something. You should be allowed to have mixed views. So the original poster, I humbly ask to change this.

If you want to have a rational discussion, THEN this should be put forth for those who do want to contribute to the movie.

Brief thoughts

The movie was a mixed bag for me, edging towards positive but is very flawed. I like it a lot more than TFA, but ultimately find it a touch disappointing. As for whether or not it cracks my top five; maybe. I will watch it on Blu-ray to get a better idea of where it stands.


My thoughts before going in

I'm not going to lie; I had elevated, but modest expectations. I was(and still am) a fan of Rian Johnson. I think he is a wonderful director and really a part of me feels bummed about how much backlash he is getting. And really, within the context of his own movies, I find TLJ a bit disappointing.

As for the prior movie. The Force Awakens; I won't lie; while I had fun in the theaters I just found the movie really hollow and bland. And really, especially after TLJ, I have come to dislike it a lot more. Though, there are some good elements, due to TLJ that made me appreciate the setup.


1) The GOOD

A) Production Value: This goes without saying, but this movie is gorgeous. The production team outdid themselves and even compared to TFA; this movie is so much more lived in. Ach-too, Canto Bight and Crait are excellent editions of the SWs galaxy. And the practical effects here are beyond what JJ and his team did. I do have some gripes with the CGI, but unlike The Force Awakens; it was, on the whole, a lot better.

The lightsabers in this movie were absolutely phenomenal. Easily, the best in the franchise with their use and glow.


B) Performances: Mark Hamill, Daisy Ridley and especially Adam Driver deserve such massive props. Hamill slipped right back into the role, much like Ford did with Han Solo. And Adam Driver and Ridley together from an acting standpoint are absolutely amazing. The rest extends to the cast as well. Compared to the PT and even TFA, this movie was spot on.

C) The mythology of the Force/ use of the Force: This was a big component as to why I liked this movie. The Force felt mystical again. Look, I don't hate the PT or even the concept of Mitocholorians. BUT in the movies, the concept is so bad. The Force to me is beyond just levitating rocks. It offers a lot of philosophical and intellectual discussions.

And the bit with Rey feeling the Force with those shots was just so masterfully done. The actual use of the Force was awesome too. The Leia scene, awkward as that was, it was cool to see. Overall, despite Broom Boy's appearance, this movie to me got that aspect done so well.

D) Themes and messages: Despite the movie's plot(I will discuss it briefly), the movie does have a really great message that reasonated with me: "In Failure, we learn our greatest lesson". And that is true. EVERYONE in this movie fails: First order, Resistance, Rey, Luke etc. And as a result they do gain something. And while I wish the execution was a lot better, it was enough for me to really appreciate that aspect.

Especially, when utilizing this theme in the rhyming scheme of callbacks to ESB and ROTJ.

Honorary positive, Finn: Finn, I never liked in TFA. Despite loving Boyega as an actor. He was MUCH better here as his arc was consistent. Maybe, to a fault, but he wasn't as annoying. His partner, though(not Poe), I cannot say the same...


2) The BAD

A) Sloppy Plot/ pacing: This movie should be an example of how NOT to structure a movie. While the first act was solid, the second act is an utter chore. The Canto Bight stuff(which I will get into) was bad, but even the main plot with the Resistance trying to outrun the FO was horrible. The entire chase was the equivalent of the FO waiting for our heroes to RUN OUT OF GAS.

I apologize for caps, but seriously, let that sink in. Even Starkiller base makes much more sense than this! I get if RJ wanted to avoid an ESB situation and wanted to use that to further tension and go ala BattleStar Gallactica. BUT unlike that great series, it doesn't help how uneven the rest of the characters.


B) Show, DON'T Tell: This is a big issue I have seen in blockbusters, even ones that I love. The most painful example is Luke Skywalker and his rationale for being on Ach-too: killing Kylo. Before anyone leaps down my throat, NOTE I AM NOT AGAINST THE IDEA. Yeah, it is a big stretch, but I was willing to let the movie try to convince me.

The issue for me is that we don't see Kylo Ren's darkness in the past. In the present sure, but that is easily understood, even back from TFA, as being a byproduct of Luke's dumb actions. What this movie needed was an extended flashback, like Looper. The movie needed to show me how Luke got to that point.

Maybe, he saw Ben's rage against one of the students and Snoke(who I will get too) could be there as a teacher of Luke's academy or something. Either way, the leadup to that scene mattered. Luke could narrate all he wants about darkness and him view into his future. It DOESN'T work. All it does is shortchanges us the audience over a very important plot element from The Force Awakens. And I know people will say, But Baran; the imagination is so much more powerful.

Not in this case, in my view. This is too important of a plot thread to simply do a Rashomon inspired flashback towards(much as I loved that homage). There are other instances, but I won't bore you. For instance, Leia telling us about why Holdo withheld the plan. LAZY.

Either way, the BIG flaw I have with this movie.


C) Canto Bight Subplot: Like many people, I had issues with Canto Bight. BUT for a different reason. I actually love the planet design and concept wise. It was unique and is a place I wanted to see from SWs. My largest gripe with B-plot is the lack of tension/ stakes.

It is bad enough that the Resistance and FO's chase(if you want to call it that.) is flawed as it is, but really outside the first act, I never felt the sense of urgency that Finn and Rose needed to get that codebreaker. And to avoid sounding like a jerk, this could have been EASILT remedied.

Why not have Phasma chase Finn/ Rose? It makes sense, given Phasma hates Finn for deserting and really I could see her perhaps detecting Finn and in secret going after him. It would add to Finn's character from TFA as he saw how dangerous the FO is and a few encounters WOULD have made their final bout actually a lot cooler. The other issue I had was that Rose's message(and character) are so trite in this movie. I'm not against freeing animals, but really what does that have to do with the mission? If she really wanted to go out of the way, rescue kids for Pete's sake?! They are what matter. They are human beings who could contribute to your effort.

heck, Broom Boy was the literal byproduct of the Spark. I have a hunch this sounded better in RJ head than in reality. But really, Canto bight either needed to be trimmed or something else needed to be added in to give this narrative more of a sense of urgency.


D) Poor TFA connections/ New Characters: I will tackle the new characters. Simply put, most of them aren't that good. Rose, had a good introduction, but as I explained she became nothing more than a thematic mouthpiece; like something Christopher Nolan would go gaga for. Heck, her sister, Paige, was much more interesting than her. And she barely said anything!

Holdo was pointless and Dern was wasted. Her not telling Poe the plan does NOT work because A) Morale in a military system is vital and B) This movie took place immediately after TFA. Poe destroyed Starkiller base and that was recent. In short, reckless as he was; he is STILL a big shot/ hero. So really, she demeans that accomplishment.

Del Toro's character was okay. He felt like a cameo and didn't add much.

Now for the other big thing. The Force Awakens, as of this movie, is utterly pointless. Snoke's death, I get it and I'm fine with it in concept. But it was sloppily executed. There needed to be a line describing where he came from. Just a line. Because he is a cheap Maguffin otherwise. Rey's parents, again great concept.

But it isn't helped that the movie tries to explain her force powers with Yin and Yang and it doesn't work. It reinforces that Rey is passive and heck, cheapens that brilliant cave scene as a dumb gotcha moment. The Yin Yang moment would have been better had Kylo rematched Rey and she lost, symbolizing the pull and push of light and darkness.

As for other aspects of TFA, The Map, KOR, and San Tekka: NONE of it is mentioned. I hate mystery boxes, But Rian Johnson needed to better respect Abrams setup. Because, pulling the rug underneath people(reasonable ones who aren't theoriest who are married to their ideas) in such a way only works, IF you provide some sufficient give and take.

And I'm sorry; this movie wasn't a good example. Go See Kung Fu Panda one and two as a better example. And YES; I'm serious.

Bonus points: Luke's death, I hated. Yeah, it makes sense in the movie, but it shortchanged the character and I didn't fully buy his redemption and it would have been better saved for Episode Nine. Also, Rey sucks. I liked her more in this movie than TFA, but as it stands she IS a Mary Sue; a term I DON"T use lightly.

3)Conclusion

Despite my detailed negatives, I still did enjoy this movie. The positive points above did captivate me. Not enough to say this movie was great. But okay. It left me more to think about than TFA which I give it credit. But this screenplay was so sloppy and I'm disappointed in LF.

You gave RJ carte Blanche and didn't even bother to double check this screenplay? My hope going forward is that Rian Johnson, if he is allowed to do his trilogy, gets some MASSIVE help from LF. Because, if this is indicative of what SWs is going to be like from a technical point, I'm done.

Heck, I'm a bit burnt out as it is with this ST and really just the OT asesthetic in general. But seeing this sloppiness would push it over the top.

Score: 70/100 or 70%

 

It's difficult for me to take any critique of the film seriously when this type of inane commentary is used.

I mentioned this before but Luke blew up the Death Star after turning off his guidance system. He grabbed his lightsaber on Hoth. He traveled to Yoda's planet without the assistance of a computer navigational system... he did all these things before ever being trained by Yoda. Why do we buy this from Luke... because his father was a Jedi.

Rey is an awakening in the force that's so powerful that Snoke/Kylo feel it. So powerful that is scares Luke Skywalker. All is as the force wills it. This isn't a murder mystery... it's a fantasy story. In this story Rey is a super strong force user because the force has chosen her as a response to Ben's powerful darkness.

It's perfectly fine to disagree with that story choice. You can even hate it. To call her a Mary Sue at this point is just lame.

Edited to add: @BaranDo91 if you would like to counter my argument in a civil and respectful way that would be better than marking my post "dislike." That's neither civil or respectful.

 

Am I the only one that liked the Canto Bight storyline?

 

I appreciated it more the second time. The chase was the only thing I though was a little lame. Finn/Rose didn't really drive the story after they were arrested. DJ gets them out. They find the space horses and ride them aimlessly until DJ/BB-8 show up to get them out of there.

 

I liked the Canto Bight stuff. It was fun. And speaking of DJ, he was treated pretty rudely by Finn and Rose. No wonder he betrayed them at the end

 

No. I liked it quite a bit and look forward to watching it again.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I will admit; my choice of words on Rey was harsh and vague. I wanted to avoid my critique from being more of a book as it was. I won't engage your points at this time for I am working on an essay which I shall post as to why Rey is a Mary Sue and not just a vapid label used by critics. But that won't come out until the movie releases on Blu-ray and I have a proper chance to sit down and analyze the movie.

And really, even if I wanted to spoil that; I find your judgemental approach lame. You don't even so much as ask for clarification of my point, but just go for the jugular by focusing on the Mary Sue argument. And that isn't civil discourse. That's just posturing. So really, don't expect me to take you seriously if you come at me with the equivalent of a knife at this debate.

That is all.

Edit: @DailyPlunge I see you like to jump the gun, too. Well, I didn't see any kind of rules, preventing me from making a said vote against your post. So really, beyond just jumping the gun, so really you are acting like an odious individual who just is itching for a fight.

And trust me, I don't have time for pedantry.

 

I think even people that don't like the storyline will admit the Canto Bight theme is nothing but outstanding.

 

The story line itself is okay at worst.
It's the fact it budges into another story line that has everyone on the collective brink of a heart attack that's the "problem".

 

That's all you really had to say, but of course you couldn't stop....

None of that is civil or even a defense of your poor Mary Sue argument.

You certainly don't have time to be civil.
Let me know when you have something interesting to say about Rey that doesn't involve the silly Mary Sue argument.

Yes... everything about the set, the creatures, and the music from Canto Black I thought was great. Even the costume design for the CBPD was great.

 

@Bendak Starkiller I liked it to a point.....the point where is strayed into political commentary about war profiteering, and Del Toro's DJ character (whom I felt was the most bland in the whole movie and had no use for).

I believe Sienar-Jaemus Fleet Systems (company that built the TIE and Stardestroyers, etc) and Incom Corporation (X-Wings, U-wings) were both Imperialized first by the Empire and then by the FO. Incom went on in "secret" as Incom-FreiTek to produce the T-70. Imperialized corporations kind of shoot holes in the "war profiteering" angle.

 

This is a civil discussion thread. Keep it civil please.

 

Amazed by how much this film has grown on me. Actively hated it the first time I saw it, I got the whinging out of my system on here then thought about it a bit, rationalised what happened and my opinion softened. Really liked it the second time I watched it, the last two times I enjoyed the hell out of it. I love it now, every time I watch it now I enjoy it as much as I did the first time I saw TFA. That film is at its best the first time you see it and gets less enjoyable after every watch, I really try to avoid watching it often if I can because I genuinely do enjoy it less and less each time. It's like an accessible pop album, great but tires quickly. TLJ just grows and grows. I'd put them on about an even keel but I reckon in 10 years time I'd have watched and enjoyed TLJ a hell of a lot more than TFA during that time.

There's plot holes, stupid nonsensical moments and awkward dialogue, but you could say the same for ROTS and ROTJ, and I adore both of them despite that.

 

great post, fair and balanced.

You share a lot of my own views, some great performances(Hamill especially) amazing production value, their are some truly beautiful shots, and the CGI on Snoke is amazing! Their is also some really interesting themes, but the writing and plot points that surrounded those themes regularly felt lazy.

Plus i like the way you describe Johnsons treatment of the Force Awakens, I was never a big theory buff, i expected Reys parents to be no one, Snokes back story to be explained in the books, but even going into it with those views watching the Force Awakens directly before i watched The Last Jedi it did feel exactly like having the rug pulled out from beneath me. I would be very interested to know if Rian johnson likes the force awakens(i mean their are many people who don't), while i know publicly he would only ever say positive things about that film, but watching the last Jedi it really felt like he didn't like it or at least spent very little time paying attention to where it left things going into his film. Ive said this in another post but in metaphor terms Luke tossing the lighsaber over his shoulder and heading of to get changed feels exactly what Rian Johnson did with Abrams set up for his film.

The most telling thing about this film is that at the start or this trilogy their what literally zero ideas for a through line for the 3 story's. However i guess many will argue that Lucas didn't have a plan when he wrote the original trilogy, and their are certainly some jarring moments in that and maybe we just don't notice them as much becuase we have grown up watching them. I would also say Lucas didn't know he was gonna get a trilogy when he made stars wars in 1976/7, Disney knew they where going to get a trilogy so not having a plan seems a bit odd.

Anyway for me the films do feel disconnected, others obviously feel different, and of course taste is relative but thats my personal opinion.

 

Civil discussions are really the best kind. It's sometimes exhilarating to have a heated discussion, but most of the time it doesn't end well. My feelings on the film are varying degrees of neutrality. Most of the plot twists had me saying "Oh, okay...". Like with TFA, there were certain decisions made by certain characters that made absolutely zero sense to me. I didn't leave the theater feeling great, but I didn't leave feeling angry or disappointed either. I'm sure it has something to do with me being a nihilistic nerfherder ever since the murder of Han Solo.

 

I liked. But sometimes some scenes took me off from the movie. Hard to explain.
But in a general way I liked, specially for the greates messages: "dont hurt animals", "no slavery conditions", "riches finances the wars", etc...

 

I love Canto Bight too.

I'm just very amused by those people who are saying Canto Bight was an 'inconsequential side plot'. Sometimes a location, a space, is used in a narrative to characterize our characters. It characterizes Rose, and through Rose Finn learns to see the injustice in the galaxy which members of the resistance like Rose hate and fight. In the beginning of TLJ Finn only fights for what he loves, Rey. At the end of TLJ, Finn identifies with the resistance, fights what he hates. However, he is rescued by Rose who now fight for what she loves. Finn has become a bit more like Rose. Rose has become a bit more like Finn. That's what Canto Bight did.

As for the specific narrative function of Canto Bight: they needed a code-breaker. That code-breaker happens to be on Canto Bight: no matter where that codebreaker is, the space where he resides is by extension always 'consequential'. Sine qua non. Some people say, 'the codebreaker could just have been there on the Raddus'. But the Raddus is not an ambiguous space. The Raddus functions as a space to characterize Poe and Holdo, and in a certain extent Kylo and Leia. The code-breaker needs a space that characterizes him specifically. His motto is Don't Join, that's his name, and it screams ambiguity. The 'master code breaker ' is a mirror image of the thief called Don't Join. A casino is a beatifully ambiguous space, for ambiguous persons. The glamorous 'poet with a blaster' who can do anything doesn't even notice our heroes. The thief did. The former could have really helped our heroes, whereas the latter nearly leads them to their doom.

So for anyone saying Canto Bight is inconsequential or serves no purpose, please reconsider

Next up: the sexual tension between Kylo Ren and Rey - Reylo time
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...t-jedi-reylo-do-kylo-and-rey-fall-in-love-sex

lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2018 ---

You shouldn't use it lightly. She can't be a Mary Sue and here are the reasons why:

- Rey is not mmediately liked by all the male characters. Luke wants to have nothing to do with her. Their relation even ends with Luke ordering Rey to leave the island.

- Rey is shown to be hubristic in her attempt to convert Kylo Ren. She believes she could make him turns, but fails in the effort. She did not heed Luke's wisdom

- Rey is shown by Snoke to be foolish and shortsighted: she wasn't 'wise enough' to see through Snoke's deception of linking Rey and Kylo's minds

- Rey is shown to be less powerful than a male character, namely Snoke: Rey doesn't stand a chance against Snoke. Not only does he probe her mind revealing the location of Luke Skywalker. He also shows that her power of the force is insignificant compared to his. Rey is literally in the grasp and made helpless by a male character: which leads us to another point.

- Rey needs a male character to save her from an another overpowering male character. Without Kylo Ren's intervention (i.e. an empathic action), Rey would never have been saved

- Rey shows emotional fragility. Not only does she cry a lot throughout the movie. She also accepts a male view of herself in a moment of emotional fragility. Most prominently in the scene where Kylo Ren tells her she is nothing. She aknowledges a male perception of her female self by aknowledging her parents were no one. This is Kylo's view. Her view is that she hopes they're special.

- Rey, a female character, never overpowers a male character. Now an observant person would say that she did overpower Luke. However she only did so by pulling a lightsabre which unbalanced the confrontation. Before she pulled the lightsabre towards her, Luke had disarmed her. Luke doesn't have a lightsabre. The director is keen enough to show that Luke's power of the force is tremendous as compared to Rey's by showing how he uses the Force to soften his landing when he falls over. He can use the force, but doesn't do so on her. Rey also doesn't have the most 'tremendous display' of force power in this movie. Luke has, by projecting himself. There is a male character (in fact there are multiple ones) in this movie who overpowers Rey, the female character.

Here's another perspective, not my own, but similar as to why Rey cannot be a Mary Sue:
https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welco...ot-a-mary-sue/&refURL=&referrer=#2ad7b74a4500

 

Hey guys, it looks like there's a bit of head butting going on here, and I figured I might chime in and see if maybe we can defuse it before it devolves into actual bad blood between youse two mugs.

First things first. Let's please bear in mind the thread title and not slag on other posters about their opinions. I think this is especially important given the fact that TLJ has engendered some widely varied and often mutually opposed reactions. Hell, I'm not even sure yet what I think of this movie, having still only had the time to see it once on opening day, and so even within my own mixed thoughts on TLJ I totally get how divisive it can be. At this point I love parts of it (particularly Luke's character) and roll my eyes at other parts (overreliance on "jokey" humor for example) and I know that my opinion will change and balance out somewhat as I see the movie a few more times.

That's all by way of saying, I get it - both the tendency to love this movie and the tendency to dismiss it, as well as all points in between.

It's important, therefore, that we all make that extra effort to be civil to one another, especially when opinions diverge sharply, as has happened here. Remember, make it about the post and not the poster. If you have a strong opinion on the film in either direction, whether you loved everything about it (or about a specific part of it, say Canto Bight) or whether you despised the whole thing (or a specific part of it, such as the extent of Rey's natural abilities) please try to bear in mind that you're bound to catch some hell about that opinion if you're too hamfisted and absolute in the way you present it.

By that same token, also try to bear in mind that reacting in kind to what you perceive to be somebody's extreme opinion is likely to get a bad response as well.

In the spirit of the "no hatred for another's opinion" caveat in the thread title, let's all try to take a step back, take a deep breath, and use a bit of diplomacy when we come up against somebody who's rubbing us the wrong way. We're all here for the same fundamental reason - we love Star Wars. Maybe not all of it, or maybe every last bit of it. But try to remember that (and operate under the assumption that) we're all friends here, or at least potential friends.

One last thing - let's all please try to avoid settling disputes by down-rating other people's posts. Agreed?

 

So @BaranDo91 no negative ratings in this thread please. Thanks

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2018 ---

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