Learning from Failure: Is it too late to challenge Rey?

I think that also ties into a much larger challenge she faces, though. She’s spent much of the trilogy relying on other people — she relies on her parents (or rather, the idea of her parents) being these great people who are coming back for her, and allows her heritage to define her. It stands in her way and is one of the obstacles she has to face in even beginning the journey, because she spends much of The Force Awakens insisting she has to go back to Jakku and refusing to accept her place in the story even after the Skywalker lightsaber calls to her.

Once she does finally accept it, she still struggles to accept that she might play a larger role in the story and that who she is is important. She’s still very much held back by her parentage, but she also (again) feels like Luke has to be the one to come back and save the day, or that Kylo can turn and save the day on his own. It’s not until the end of The Last Jedi that she realizes (1) Luke did come back and left her with the responsibility of continuing the Jedi Order and (2) Kylo can’t save himself. Rey is the last Jedi, and she’s really the last hope the galaxy has of fighting Kylo. She has to be the catalyst for change.

So, I would argue that her convincing Luke and Kylo to change their minds is in fact part of her hero’s journey, because they’re two more obstacles she has to overcome in accepting her role in the story. In many ways, her story directly relates to the preconceived notions of the audience going into these films — that Rey has to be a Skywalker or a Solo, otherwise she’s not important. While this is just my opinion, what I would argue makes these films so great is that the audience is overcoming many of the protagonist’s challenges with them. It’s no different than Rey having expectations that Luke would be exactly the same as he was 30 years ago and immediately agree to come back. She had to accept that Luke had changed in the 30 years since Return of the Jedi, as did we. She had to accept that she was the hero of this trilogy, not Han, Luke, Leia, Kylo or anyone else. She had to accept that she wasn’t a Skywalker or a Solo, but that she still had a place in the story. And so did we.

I would say the challenges Rey faces are a little more complex than what many people are making them out to be.

 

Rey defied her master on Ahch-To. She made a decision on a minimal of understanding and a source of information that didn't give her the full picture. She rushed to meet the man who killed her father figure with intent to defeat him by conversion and help her friends win the war. In her hubris, she learned the truth, that her parents abandoned her, that her training thus far was woefully inadequate to change him, it shattered her understanding of matters to the core. She learned that her master had if not outright lied, at least generously manipulated the truth. She learned that the two people she believed cared about her the most in fact did not care for her at all. The only doubt after that movie was the veracity of Kylo's claim. Rey failed her master, and put her life and soul in danger to save friends that she did nothing for (the Resistance would still have to face an even worse Kylo Ren now Supreme Leader of the FO and would need Luke Skywalker to show up and save the day to cover for Rey's failure to do so by turning Kylo Ren) because she rushed headlong despite the advice of her teacher. The only positive we learn from those interactions at that time was that she learned the truth about her parents, but that wasn't clear at the end of TLJ. We didn't see a triumphant Rey at the end. There is no sense of victory from the good guys at the end of TLJ, you get a relief they barely escaped to perhaps fight another day, and a loss of a friend.

You know this, how? I could easily rebut with, Yoda knew Rey would fail to change Luke just as he knew she would fail to change Kylo, but Yoda also knew that Rey needed to fail before he intervened and changed Luke himself. But, of course, there's no way I could know that. All I can really do is go by what is seen onscreen. Rey fails to change Luke, Yoda succeeds to cover for her failure. Rey fails to change Kylo, Luke intervenes to cover her failure. Yoda, Luke and even Kylo all cover for Rey's failures in this film. Luke never failed half as hard as Rey. Luke failed to kill someone. Rey failed to save someone. Twice. Which is the greater failure: failure to kill, or, failure to save?

Is that why Luke's outlook that the Jedi needed to end was exactly the same after Rey left as it was before she arrived? Success is when things remain the same? It's an interesting definition of success, but seems to me one that is based on, "How do I artificially turn 'failure' into 'success'?" In fact, when Rey leaves, Luke is now heading at the Jedi texts with a torch intent on doing the deed. Luke's mindset is not only unchanged, he's now firmly in the state of enacting that mindset. Then Yoda appears and gives Luke understanding. Watch the scene and it's clear that Luke is gaining clarity and return to form through Yoda's teachings on failure. Yoda is clearly responsible for Luke's return to form.

Doesn't go back, and gets a torch to burn the Jedi texts and end the Jedi once and for all.

Mission accomlished, true. By Yoda.

True, but the way you used the word "instrumental" conveys the concept of an active participation in an event. Rey had no idea what Kylo was going to do, and no active participation is his actions. Snoke's death was 100% Kylo's doing with no active participation whatsoever on Rey's behalf. To call Rey "instrumental" in the situation with Snoke begs the question, then what was Rey in the battle with the guards? Ultra-instrumental?

I would argue Luke's flaw was rashness of action mixed with a strong desire to help. Not much in the way of hubris. When Luke was cautioned by Yoda about leaving, Luke was of a mind that desparately wanted to help his friends. "And let Han and Leia die?" "I've got to try" or something, was his mindset, not really "You underestimate my power!" Anakin and Luke (and Rey) all wanted to help people.

She saw it in the force connection that Kylo would turn. It was in the dialogue. Kylo saw that she would turn. That's why he saved her from Snoke. She thought he would turn, he thought she would turn.

Again, she saw it happen. If that's "forced" then all such actions in every movie ever made are "forced" (including Luke seeing Han and leia in trouble at Bespin causing him to go to Bespin). Except that for the event to be parallel, it would be as if Luke saw Han and Leia suffering and also saw that he would save them. THEN the end of ESB happened, and Luke failed. Rey had more reason to move along her course of action than Luke did. Yet, somehow Luke's action is believable and Rey's is not?

Why did Luke turn himself over to Vader in RotJ? It's virtually the same scenario except that Rey states she saw Kylo would turn. We get no such reason from Luke in RotJ. Vader is even shocked by Luke's action stating in confusion "He will come to me?"

We got the scene with Rey saying "They were nobody" "Please don't do this" : emotional pain and emotional pain. Equivalent.

I'd suggest what is actually erroneous is to think the one needs "chapters worth of head canon" when it is actually plainly stated in the dialogue. The way I see these threads playing out seems to indicate that for a lot of people, the dialogue in the movies has been overlooked or has not been retained. This is an example, another example is the dialogue in preevious films which tell us the nature of the abilities of a person who has the force. Qui-Gon explained that a Jedi can "see things before they happen" which is why a Jedi appears to have such "quick reflexes" which of course enables a person with the force to, oh I don't know, pod race, dogfight droids in a ship he's never flown, deflect blaster bolts, dogfight TIE pilots, make one-in-a-million exhaust port shots which are "impossible even with a computer" fly Falcons that you've never flown before through junkyards, duel multiple non-force using opponents, shoot TIEs with gunnery.

Kenobi also told Luke that the force even partly "controls your actions" and also "obeys your commands". These simply lines of dialogue explain every "impossible" thing Anakin does, Luke does, Rey does.

Sure and the same thing happened with Luke. Both failed in their purposed course of action, and both barely escaped with their lives after first hearing a hard revelation.

Is it satisfying to think that not only did you fail, but now the guy you thought you could change has taken the seat of "Supreme Leader". "Hey I went to save the evil underling, but I was wrong and I failed and now he's betrayed me and is the evil Supreme Leader, and we'd all be dead right now if it weren't for Luke Skywalker. How satisying."

Except that she saw it would happen.

Yet he blocks blaster bolts while blindfolded, and makes exhaust port shots which are "impossible even with a computer" more than he misses, right?

I'm sorry? "Direction"? You're brushing off that Luke, hours after picking up a lightsaber, is deflecting multiple blaster bolts >while blindfolded< with "Kenobi was standing there"? What Luke does there, is impossible. Tey, believable because? He's got the force and as Kenobi says, the force is at work "controlling" Luke's actions. That's why he can do all of the "impossible" things he's doing, that's why Rey can do all of the "impossible" things she's doing. And there's nothing beyond "impossible" that's as far as the disbelief scale goes.

And this is somehow "more impossible" than deflecting three blaster bolts >while blindfolded< hours after picking up a lightsaber, with no practical melee experience? Using the force to shoot three bulk objects with your eyes wide open is beyond belief, but deflecting three energy beams with your eyes closed? No problem.

Not even comparable? They're both >strong with the force<. They're completely comparable. Only in the Bizarro world are two force users not comparable.

The foundation of all evaluation here is that she has the force. Yes, belief obviously plays a role in that, but the crux of the comparison is that >both are strong with the force< which allows both to do things that seem >impossible<.

Like all the training Anakin had when he was podracing as "the only human that can do it"? The same training Anakin had when he was dogfighting droid ships? When he was rattling off clairvoyance like it was completely possible "a ship, a speeder, a cup..." the same training Luke had when he deflected multiple blaster bolts while blindfolded, engaged in dogfights with trained TIE pilots including the Dark Lord of the Sith? Made impossible exhaust port shots, force-pulled a lightsaber to him without ever being told it could be done? But wait, Kenobi said "Let go Luke!" so that makes all of the impossible believable? Well, hey, Leia said "may the force be with you" to Rey so, problem solved.

MOD EDIT

 

with....Luke cut himself off from the Force and presumably the ability to communicate with the 'netherworld' until that same night on Ach-to.

So you're correct. No 'head canon' necessary, not even one bit.

 

I will answer this referring to the film:
Rey: "I've never felt so alone."
Kylo: "You're not alone"
Rey:"Neither are you. It's not too late..."
Rey extends her and, Kylo follows suit, the camera frames their two figures in a shot before lingering on a close up of their fingers touching. When they touch we see both characters reacting as if touched by electricity. The force theme plays in the background.

This slow and very deliberately dramatic scene is the culmination of the short yet intense relationship that had been developing between Kylo and Rey in their prior conversations through the force. This is evidence.

 

That's a solid point. I wonder how much of that was Snoke's involvement, but Rey wouldn't know that until much too late. Certainly Snoke could have affected both while in that state, altering their perceptions, giving the whole rose colored glasses one feels at first love. His motive could easily just be to get Rey to him to destroy or turn.

Even without Snoke's involvement, they both obviously react to each other. It's not as deep and deliberate than Luke wanting to save his father, but certainly people can do rash things when they think they're in love. Whether or not Snoke was involved, when Kylo turns her down Rey must realize that their connection was superficial and misguided at this point. Kylo probably realizes this too. Doesn't mean Rey doesn't want to turn him, but without the Rose colored glasses, I wonder how she'll regard Kylo now that him killing her friend and his father is probably his most memorable trait.

 

I think Rey is done with Kylo by the end of TLJ. I would speculate though that she still harbours the desire for him to turn, for himself and for everyone's sakes, but hopefully the lesson has been learnt and she will either let him turn by himself or destroy him.

 

Just to be clear, this will be my last reply to you.

There is no double standard. I never brought gender into this, you did. You did because you're looking for an excuse. Maybe that's why people stopped responding to you, because by doing that you show your true colors. No one wants to debate someone who plays that card when things are not going their way, or they can't convince the other side of their "superior" or more "enlightened" view point.

It's unfortunate, because you had some solid arguments, but unfortunately once you go down that road you discredit yourself. It's the same as if I'd go into a thread and try and discredit Rey based on her gender. I wouldn't, because that isn't my issue with her. I'd have all the same issues if she were a he called Ray and not Rey.

Anyways, to the mods who'll eventually get to this, don't worry, I'm done responding to him. So it ends here.

 

{mod redacted}

At any rate, apparently it's over so, thanks for your moderation. You're doing a great job. See you in the future.

 

This is the part where someone would say to me "Please don't defy the council, not again." You know my response to that.

Okay but to put this into the proper context for sake of clarity. The crux of the arguments against the character in this thread are that she is "too strong, too successful, too independent". Those arguments aren't actually true in contrast with the previous characters. Like the others, she's strong, but has weaknesses. She's as independent as the others, also depending upon others. She has her successes and her failures, like the others. But, regardless of the facts put forth she is consistently painted as "too strong, too successful, too independent." Strong, successful, independent. Do those words allow you mind to create a possible hypothetical construct in relation to some form of current ideology which just happens to be strongly attached to the general "hater" narrative of the ST? Something about, female something. Something like, falsely painting a character in a way that would appear to support a narrative?

So when I rebut the arguments with "solid arguments" (which of course no longer need to be addressed since I've been a terror by proposing a reasonable hypothesis based on the arguments) and then state that holding a character to a different standard is not fair criticism, and contains a clear bias against the one who happens to be the female of the three protagonists, which causes the opposition to actually begin making insults and accusations with impunity. Then I'm the one who is said to be making insults and accusations; and I'm the one who needs to reconsider his side of the table. Because stating that holding a female character to a different standard is a bias is, not a warranted conclusion if even tentatively stated. Then you delete my words to remove context from the situation, while leaving the posts that contain actual accusations with no legitimate arguments backing up the accusations.

Doesn't sound reasonable.

Obviously the response is, "I will do what I must."

And in the end, I can assure you of one certainty - absolutely no hard feelings nor ill-will toward you, or, Sparafucile, or, anyone else for that matter. I go as I'm moved.

 

JonSnowSerJanos.gif

 

This often reminds me how many think "death" is the only stakes in a movie. "If the characters don't die are there stakes?" Of course there are.
Just like with Star Wars, if a character doesn't physically lose a limb, are they challenged? Of course they are.

I look at it this way, take the two most important men in your life and have them kneel in front of you.
Then someone shoots one in the back of the head.
Now you are given the choice of one not dying and you losing your hand or they die and you keep your hand.
Which option is the least challenging?
I know my answer. And that's basically what Rey has been handed. She saw both of the mentors in her life die at the hands of Kylo Ren.
She's challenged plenty.

Now imagine those two men are Ben Kenobi and Yoda.
Luke lucked out Vader only offed the one right in front of him.
Yoda went peacefully into the good night. Luke lost a hand.

 

Who has avoided it? It's Maclunkey superfluous. It's window dressing since a scene later you know it will be replaced by a mechanical hand with no fall off in ability or hardships due to it.

No it's not probelmatic because, get this, men and women are different and take information differently. They respond to different things. If you want women to relate to Rey her story has to be more feminine and approached in a way that appeals more towards women. The same way a male hero would be designed to appeal to the sensibilities of a man.
Ahem.


Rey is a woman and telling a story more women will likely relate to than men because life. It's story construction.
Rey could have easily lost a limb. But so what? So it's even more like the PT and OT? I thought that was a problem with TFA "too similar"
Can't have it be different and the same. It's lose/lose.

As for the part of your post:

No one has said they are only allowed to be psychological. This is not true and you know it. This is a strawman argument. Here: Rey was physically overpowered by Snoke. He tossed her around like ragdoll. And she needed the man to save her from imminent death. Better? Because it happened.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 28, 2018 ---

Put more succinctly:
Losing a hand in Star Wars is a physical manifestation of emotional grief. It is literally just heavy handed (pun intended) symbolism for losing something emotionally and mentally. If were actually about losing a physical part then there would be a call back for it. But it literally never matters again in Star Wars.

 

I think Rey is taking a different path more due to the story being told from two or more equal perspectives than due to her gender. Vader didn't steal screen time from Luke, he was there solely as Luke's foil. Obi-Wan wasn't there to challenge Luke to steal the show, he was quite obviously past his prime and out of active duty. Rey however has to share time with development of Kylo and Luke because people realize Vader becomes a better villain with that exposition, and Luke has enough of a following that viewers have a hunger and need to know what he's been up to, especially in the way the movie(s) were constructed.

The lack of a time jump in relation to both Luke and Anakin is also huge in the slow down of Rey's development. That's not to say there isn't any, but I think it's justifiable for someone to claim it isn't on the same level to that of Anakin and Luke. What Rey goes through in TLJ to me would be close as to what could have conceivably happened to Luke in the direct aftermath of his DS shot. Luke has no master, but has more of an understanding of the Force than he did previously. He thinks he knows his father's killer, which gives him a goal. For the next 3 or so years, he gets in skirmishes with the Empire helping the Rebellion, using those Jedi skills along the way. He likely helps out the Rebellion a lot, thus his rank by the time ESB comes about. Which indicates to me that he's had some success, he's survived, and likely the Force has aided him. He isn't trained, but he is very aware of it and fumbles around trying to access it, understand it along the way.

Some parts of that Rey has, others she doesn't, their voyage is different. There isn't a time jump, but events force her to action and she does so with the knowledge she has access to this power. I just feel she more Luke pre-ESB at this point, but it isn't a direct comparison, and some aspects of Luke in ESB do exist, but a lot doesn't. So in a way, both arguments are right.

As for injuries, I think males and females often view injuries differently. When a man sees a man with a scar, we see and hope for a great story behind it. It doesn't mean there is, but we also don't judge men with scars negatively. Men tend to act more recklessly, work jobs that are more unsafe, so scars are more common among the male population. In the SW universe, a lost limb that is replaced by a mechanical one seems to be on par with a scar. Now of course some men have scars for foolish reasons, but it usually still makes for a good story, just funny instead of cool.

Now a woman in this day and age can get a similar reaction from men if she has a scar. The story doesn't lose value due to her gender. The difference is the female reaction to disfigurement, especially in young women. In young men, they are valued for their strength, which often has men thinking less and acting more. In women, they are valued for their beauty. Just think of what you tell a young women to a young man. You're beautiful, pretty princess vs you're strong or tough. This has changed some over the years, but not as much as we might think or hope. There could be a fear that disfiguring Rey could make her less appealing to young women, their target audience. I don't think she'd be thought of less by men, or at least not most men, but to young women especially, yeah it's possible.

How many other Disney Princesses have a prosthesis? A scar? I'm sure some have scars, but they certainly are not readily visible. The next obvious question is, is that by design or by accident? Is it because she's in a slower arc due to the lack of a time jump? Is it because she's following a heroine's journey? Isn't is possible that it's all of those reasons to some extent?

The fact is, when you work in a physically dangerous business, war being the most so, physical scars are expected. There are two major reasons why a soldier doesn't get scars. Either they aren't experienced enough, or they got abnormally lucky (yes, I know, I don't believe in luck Kenobi says, but most force users wind up with scars sooner than later.). There are others, maybe they are extraordinarily prepared and intuitive, think Thrawn. Maybe they are only deployed in safer, more controlled circumstances, maybe the battles they fight is less desperate, needing of less compromises and sacrifice. I don't think any of those apply to Rey however. Rey isn't travelling a typical heroine's journey, women don't usually walk on the front lines, and those who do usually face the same perils as their male counterparts. Rey's battle is not only a psychological one, trying to change ideas, thus the threat to her is not only psychological either.

It is also true that both men and women in war time face extraordinary psychological trauma. If that is indeed their intention here, I applaud them, but I question if this movie format is the best way to talk about it. This is especially true due to the relatively large cast. If this were a single person narrative, only following Rey, it might work, but with multiple leads I think it makes it hard to see that struggle, if that is indeed what they are trying to portray. Psychological trauma is not so obvious, very nuanced and I think suffers in this movie format. I think it would be better explored in a more adult cartoon or live action TV series, which is why I have some doubts that's entirely the intent of RJ and JJ in the ST in regards to Rey. Everyone in the previous trilogies experience psychological trauma, failure and hardship, so why is it all of a sudden Rey's struggle in this regard should be taken as an equal to that of physical plus psychological to her predecessors?

Now narratively you can argue authors are focused more on the heroine's journey, but within this story, it almost has to be seen as a sort of hybrid due to the fact she's the spearhead of a desperate rebellion against massively more powerful or at least numerous foe. There's an overwhelming physical element which is usually what a hero faces in his journey, and that aspect is part of Rey's journey as well.

So to me, due to the reasons above, I think the questions in regards to Rey are fair game. I believe, and I've written about this elsewhere, that it's mostly due to the early element of her journey so far. The lack of a time jump, due to necessity because Kylo needed his Anakin arc... he's basically doing AotC Anakin in the first two installments of the ST. This has slowed Rey's arc, especially in comparison to Luke's and Anakin's, because we've never seen either Luke or Anakin directly after their big moments, but we are in Rey. Add Luke's screen time and voila, Rey's story has been sufficiently slowed to give some the perception that it is stagnant, especially when compared to those of Anakin and Luke in their own trilogies. So yes, I am judging Rey, the girl, differently than the two boys, but it isn't because of gender, it's because of circumstance. That's why I don't entirely buy into the heroine's journey theory, because she isn't treated merely as a heroine. She's the most capable physical specimen put into the most physically dangerous circumstances and that doesn't come without inherent risk, especially untrained. She's also having to get exposition in more detail than her compatriots, something they did not have to suffer in their early stages due to time jump.

I think there was a fair bit of assumption on the part of fans that Luke and Anakin failed at certain things between their first and second movies, because as humans we acknowledge that we learn from failure. So it seemed logical they didn't always immediately succeed at everything they did. I think maybe some people subconsciously expected to see that same kind of failure reflected in Rey, but due to her being in the thick of things, the expectation was that it would be more catastrophic. The assumption goes on that since we didn't get stories about Luke or Anakin directly after their first movies is that their failures were in more controlled environments. Thus, not as detrimental to the cause. You can argue that the Resistance is down to the size that can fit into the MF, but the counter argument will always be, and it's valid, that much of that is not due to Rey's actions or inactions, but due to those in the Resistance themselves, the choices of other struggling heroes more than hers.

To me the most logical conclusion is that Rey is much earlier in her arc than both Luke and Anakin. We're not comparing apples to apples. It doesn't have anything to do with gender, it has to do with time. Rey may yet lose a limb, lol, but her story hasn't progressed to that point yet where that event would have the greatest impact. Could there be other motivations? I don't deny that possibility, but looking at things narratively, Rey needs to study and come to think she knows it all and face someone who makes her re-evaluate that belief. She hasn't faced that yet, she's never given me the indication of that kind of confidence. She's been able, and she believes in the Force, but I think she knows that belief is faith based, and lacks the wisdom of years and knowledge. We may see it in IX.

 

I do consider the introduction of Rey in TFA a... masterpiece.
Visually beautiful and not only.
She doesn’t say a single word for minutes because there’s literally no one
around her to have a conversation with. She is alone. She works alone, she
lives alone. Everything around her speaks about loneliness.

So I personally laughed a lot when I heard her saying those words in TLJ.

Plus, that to me doesn’t explain at all why she suddenly changes attitude towards Kylo.
I don’t understand why she has to care about his problems.
Why the power of such “shared feeling of loneliness” should be enough to erase
the memory of the latest events.
Plus, He wasn’t alone. He chose to be.
He chose to kill Luke’s students (he didn’t just defend himself).
To join the FO. Not because he was alone.
In fact, he could have took the surviving students and get a life with them.
But not. He joined the space neo nazi FO.
Becuase he wanted to, for reasons two movies never told us.

 

This makes Rey one of the dumbest force users ever created. Finn saved the day. The Resistance would be no more without his choices. Not hers. Things got better for the Resistance the moment Finn made a change. Rey saved the hero from Kylo Ren in TFA. That is all she did. Her journey should have been attached more to Finn. Her purpose became him, and vice versa. Attempting to make her motivations any bigger than that is the reason TLJ failed.