Learning from Failure: Is it too late to challenge Rey?

We don't know about the mechanical limbs but we hang on it for five minutes then it's never an issue again. Your argument on this would hold more water if at any point in time the loss of the limb provided some sort of disadvantage to the hero. it doesn't. It's superfluous. It's a metaphor for the internal struggles. That's the issue with this.
Take Game of Thrones. Jaime Lannister loses his sword hand and everything changes for him. He is a shell of a man. He is no longer the greatest swordsman in Westeros. He is now essentially castrated by the definition of the character in all previous texts. His loss of limb influences the character.
Anakin loses his limb and it's just a metaphor for his hate/anger.
Luke loses his limb and it's just a metaphor for his father/Vader drama.
There are no significant changes to the character BECAUSE of the loss of limb. It doesn't alter their ability to swing a lightsaber. It doesn't change how they have to approach using the force.

I know you didn't specifically say any of that, but it's a highly common complaint and one they clearly avoided in TLJ. If they had a character, especially Rey, lose a hand, those complaints resurface instantly.

Her story isn't about the struggle to become a Jedi. It's about the struggle to find purpose or belonging outside of what people decide it is for you. (legacy vs nobody). Your "realistic" (heavy quotes) progression is just superfluous physical damage. Is her failing to return Ben more significant if she loses a limb? No. Just like Luke's failure to save Han is no different if he doesn't lose his arm. He still failed. And he's still whole at the end of the movie.

Rey failed at turning Ben and now she has UberRen to deal with.
She failed at turning Luke and now she has no living teacher.
Snoke's death plays a huge role in her failing to turn Ben.
Rey still seeks belonging and guidance.

These are not really solved issues. They're evolving.
She's figuring them out but has to actually finish them.

 

She is given all the excuses, and given all the power.
You show this concern for Rey, but none for Finn.
Why is his purpose any different than hers? Wasn't Rose deciding for Finn what he should do?

Rey has never failed. The opportunities that should have been applied were ignored, because Rey has to be given every opportunity to look good..... Even when she doesn't. It made no sense for Chewbacca to go along with Rey's plan. He didn't even question it. Even though him and Luke both know Kylo better than she ever could. Regardless of some force bond. We are human first. Using the force to bring them together when they shared no human experiences such as she did with Finn will never work.

Luke losing a limb had more to do with him not being ready. He was still a young boy. It happens when you don't have much experience. We can all relate to that, because no matter how talented you are. You still need experience. What Rey has done, and using the force as the excuse is not human. The audience cannot use any human experience to relate to that. When Luke returned in ROTJ. He was a much wiser individual. He suffered terrible loses, and we felt his pain. What pain did the audience share with Rey? What does Rey have to get better at in order for her to be succesful? We knew Luke had to get better as a Jedi, but what about Rey? Who or what is standing in her way?

Rey attempting to turn Ben made no sense. Her only reasons to do this would be force related. Unlike Finn who she shares a human attachment with. She shares none of that with Kylo, so what knowledge did she reveal about Kylo that we didn't already know? Nothing. Luke had a real reason for leaving Degobah. Han and Leia were his friends. His friendship with them had nothing to do with the force. It was a human connection, and we the audience loved it. We can relate to that. We can relate to being there for friends and family. We cannot relate to a girl who goes to a guy who has killed his father and almost killed her best friend. We cannot relate to a girl going to a guy she doesn't have a human connection with. Using the force is a bad excuse. They have no human experiences to go by.

She had belonging with Finn. You know. The guy that almost died for her, but I guess that's not enough. I don't know about you, but someone putting their life on the line for me is something I would never forget. Especially within two weeks The human connections Rey made was with Han and Finn. That is a fact. We can go back and watch scenes of this. There is none of that for Rey and Kylo.

 

I have no idea how you turned this into a Finn thing. But I shouldn't be shocked.

Just to be short about it: Finn and Rey are different characters acting out of different motivations with different desires. Comparing their arcs this way is disingenuous at best. They really aren't comparable this way.

 

She said those words before the cave gave her no hope. While she was alone in Jakku Rey harboured hope. She made scratches on the wall counting the days and told BB8 her parents would come back for her. The cave told her a different story: The sad truth, and that made her feel more alone than ever before.

Kylo becomes the person who ends up nurturing her, telling her what her weakness was: her dependence in a parental figure. Luke did not become the mentor she was expecting. In a sense, Kylo did.

I think she identifies with the feeling of isolation and alienation Kylo feels. I don’t think she forgets his crimes.

Yes, Kylo chose his path, but this choice has alienated him from his family, the people he belongs to. He has left them behind intentionally and is allowing all this loneliness and pain in his life because he’s come to realise this is what he needs to become the person he ought to be. He feels that Rey should do the same, “kill the pass”, forget about friends and parents and join him. Rey turning to the dark wouldmake her an ally and a companion to remedy his loneliness. This is obviously flawed thinking on his part.

From Rey’s point of view, Kylo should turn to the light to become a good son and the hero of this story. Rey does not realise yet that the hero of this story is really herself, and that Kylo needs to turn (if he ever does) without her assistance.

 

That’s subjective, though. One of Finn’s primary focuses in The Last Jedi is Rey. He’s even willing to abandon the Resistance for her well-being. The Last Jedi novelization fleshes it out a little more because it explains how his devotion to Rey causes tension between him and Rose.

I’m not saying Finn’s choices aren’t crucial to the Resistance’s survival, but I also don’t see how his choices are more important than Rey’s. She chose to accept her place in the story as the next Jedi. That is what will allow the Resistance to survive, because no one else is equipped to take on Kylo Ren. She could’ve walked away from it, as she almost did in The Force Awakens. But she didn’t. Her purpose is bigger than just Finn, and I think Finn’s purpose in the story is bigger than Rey.

I’m not saying Rey is a perfect character, but I definitely feel like she saved the day more than Finn did. Finn accomplished very little during the Battle of Crait — he would’ve died had Rose not stopped him from his attempted suicide run. Rey was the one who showed up with the Falcon at the last second and ultimately helped them escape (although Luke certainly played the biggest role in their escape at the end of the film). In The Force Awakens, Rey undoubtedly was the one who saved the day when Finn got knocked out. So, I don’t think it’s fair to say that she’s “one of the dumbest Force users ever created” and that “Finn saved the day” when she did just as much — if not more — than he did.

I’m not attacking you, I’m just genuinely curious as to why you feel the way you do. Because I’ve interpreted Rey and Finn’s journeys in this trilogy very differently.

 

Maybe it failed for you, but the overwhelming number of people who saw the film liked it. This idea that the film failed is nonsensical.

It makes perfect sense if you watched The Last Jedi.

 

Sorry but I still believe that she was far more alone on Yakku. That by time she reaches Ahch to, at least
she has got some friends. Finn, Leia, etc...
I still remember that she said to Maz that she knew that her parents were never coming back.
That she admitted this sad truth halfway through TFA.
And that that was the point. Not how much important they were or not.

And that’s why I personaly believe TLJ is a reboot of her arc. A reboot needed only because
without these new additions that some people take as an evolution, others -myself included - as contradictions
if compared to TFA all the idea of the share loneliness couldn’t work at all.
Not even for those who buy it, now.
I can’t.

In fact the point I was trying to make was...why to trust him?
Not if she did forget his crimes.
If the answer is because he feels alone, sorry but I cannot help but think not only
that she’s been alone far more than him (all her life) and that
was not her weakness. But something she was capable to overcome.
And more importantly that if she survived, it was because - I suppose far too easily - she
knew who to trust.

In fact, it’s not that Hunkar Plutt became her father figure...that could have been perfectly coherent
with the idea of someone looking for a father figure wherever she can.
Therefore, also in a man she knew for half a day and later on in the very same same guy that
killed him. Why? Because he’s alone too? Because she’s now uncapable of distinguishing
nurturing than manipulating. Incapable of doing what she did at 10 with Hunkar?
I am sure he’s alone too. Or that he may pretend he is.

????? That’s my reaction.

Far more interesting - and coherent with TFA - would have been the contrary.
Having her not capable of trusting people.
Just because she’s been forced all her life to trust no one but herself.
And more empowering if you ask me.
Or at least something more fitting an heroine’s journey, than a s-hero’s journey.

Something that TFA hinted at least with two scenes.
The first one when she refuses Finn’s hand and by the end of the movie when she hugs him.

These are little details and characters moments, that underline a character psychology and arc.
And they do it, coherently.

Whereas in TLJ we totally miss the scene when Rey wakes up and decides of not killing Kylo.

I don’t need that scene to figure out the sequence of events.
I can do it myself.

But the point is that her choice in that moment and the reasons as to why she takes that choice
are pivotal to understand/explain her motivations. To build up her character arc.
Why did she choose of not killing him... and killing the next supreme leader?

Because that is not the Jedi way?
Did someone teach her that ? Or she knew it, because she knows everything?
What did she think in that moment?
That he’s a lost cause? Or that she loves him?
Better not to waste any time and trying to save the good guys?
Or the only point is that had she killed Ren, then no need of episode IX?

Whatever the answer may be - beside the last one of course - the true character moment
of Rey, the climax of her arc, is left off screen.
Because it cannot be her lifting rocks or Luke’s words.
It has to be “her” words. Otherwise is another character defining her.
Or foreshadowing her destiny.

Answer that question - on screen - and we’ll probably know what is the inner dragon
she has to face in IX.

 

Minutes after he loses his hand we see him with a nice new hand that looks perfectly fine. It's never mentioned again. He is no more scared physically than a basic superficial scar that everyone gets. You keep harping on that as if the hand cost Luke the fight. Luke had already lost. He was cornered. On the ground. It doesn't change the outcome.

Luke's journey was MOSTLY about becoming a Jedi. It wasn't until the closing minutes of ESB that it became about more. Rey's journey has been mostly about finding her place, until the closing minutes of TLJ. They're not mutually exclusive but one dominated the narrative until now.

And again, her journey isn't about becoming a Jedi. She is more interested in finding her place in everything. Jedi is secondary. She isn't driven by a line like Luke was "I'm a Jedi, like my father before me". So of course that has nothing to do with her being a Jedi. It's about her finding someone who can help her belong and find her place in all this. That is what failing to bring Ben back impacted. She thought Ben could give her a purpose. It was 10000% impacted her ability to find a family. She clearly wanted him to be a part of that family in some way.

1. If she does nothing, Ren doesn't overthrow Snoke and doesn't lead the FO now. She gave him the chance to make that move forward.
2. Okay. You aren't countering my point there. She failed so.....
3. Oh so NOW symbolism matters? Kylo was afforded the opportunity to betray Snoke because of Rey's being there.
4. He said the library contains nothing the girl Rey does not already posses. The library is the tree. She has the books. Not difficult. But good spin. Clever one.

Criminal is trying to argue that a lost hand replaced by a perfect mechanical hand within scenes is somehow important other than "Zomg! It happened to Luke and Anakin!! Has to happen to Rey!!!"

1. Snoke's death creates chaos. Not solved.
2. Luke is dead. So was Yoda. But Yoda wasn't done. Come on now.
3. Ben is gone...but no one is ever really gone...
4. Yes they were. Now she has to accept this and move on. She's not given the time to do this yet. It's up to JJ to make this matter.

 

I wouldn't use the word abandon. He would have to at least be a member. Which he wasn't. Rose's actions are part of the problem. What's interesting is the difference between Maz and Rose. Both wanted Finn to join the fight, but one character didn't force their point of view on Finn. She allowed him to make his own choice, and the story flowed more organically. Take TLJ. When Finn wants to leave to save his friend, because the Resistance appears doomed. He is tasered, and held against his will. Then he is given a speech about being selfish, because he wants to save the people he cares about. This is why Rose is disliked. Maz respected Finn. Rose did not.

Finn's choices had a direct impact on the Resistance. Rey's choice had a direct impact on her and Finn. I didn't see one character more important than the other. I just saw two characters becoming better when they worked together.

I agree they have different journeys, but I also believe their personal journeys should bring them closer together. The problem is I have no idea what personal journey Rey and Finn are supposed to be on. Rey has become attached to Kylo and I don't know for what purpose. Finn had to get attached to Rose, and I don't know for what purpose. The strongest and most convincing motivations for both characters was in TFA. I can't relate to either character's motivations now. It is beyond my understanding.

That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but TLJ didn't sit well with a lot of people.
Don't wait until the next movie comes out before you realize this.

I thought Finn putting his life on the line was supposed to symbolize she has people who care about her now. She didn't need to have that in TLJ. Not from a character who is killing his own family.

If Luke loses his friends. He would be devastated. If Rey were to lose Finn or Kylo. Which one would she be more devastated over?
In order for it to be failure. She has to lose something personally behind it. Did she lose anything when she walked away from Kylo?

 

I see what you mean. In TFA she was made to realise the truth about her parents, that they were not coming back for her, and in that film it was utilised in a scene where Rey refuses “the call” of the heroes journey so to speak. Max tells her that the belonging she seeks is in front of her and Rey realised that “her belonging” is in Luke. In TLJ, Rey has embraced the call for adventure but now her challenge is to find her right place within the force, an element she never had to contend with in yakku. You see, the stakes are different now. Rey feels the force is more than she can chew and expects to find guidance in Luke as Maz suggested, but Luke gives her very little hope. Luke’s pessimism and Rey’s lack of self believe (stoked by Kylo) lead her to the cave and to inquire again about her parents, wanting, in her confusion and lack of self belief, to find help in the force itself. But the answer is what she already knows and refuses to accept after every challenge life brings her: that her parents aren’t coming back and she’s on her own.

I think what RJ wants us to understand is that Rey seeks in Kylo the saviour of the galaxy she did not find in Luke. She believes kylo can become such saviour when they touch hands and she feels his conflict. It is not that she trusts him because he is lonely and she is lonely too. She trusts him because she sees with clarity Kylo has good in him and that, if he does, he has the power to win the war against the FO. She basically sees in Kylo the hero she really should see in herself but has not yet the confidence to do so.

You forget that Rey has now the force and that her daily life in Yakku had nothing to do with the mysterious ways of the force, the subtle manipulation, the lure of the dark side. She is a strong girl but still young and clueless about an intelligence more polished than that of unkar plutt. In TLJ there are many scenes that expose Rey’s naivitee. This is done on purpose. Rey had a lot to learn. Unker Plutt was an unsophisticated thug who did not give her a kind word. Kylo did.

Rey is presented from the onset as a trusting girl. She’s fooled by Finn in their first scene together when he tells her he’s with the resistance. The refusing of handholding was merely a misunderstanding of intent between both characters. Finn was caring and protective when he took her hand and she did not get it because no one in her life had ever treated her like that.

The climax of her arc as you say is on screen and it is the moment she closes the door of the Falcon on Kylo. To kill him would have been against her character. Kylo is not a problem for her to resolve. A hero does not kill the villain in his sleep, that’s not the hero’s way, and Rey is a hero.

 

Well of course! However, you claimed that the film failed and it may have for you since that's your opinion. However, by any logical measure the film was a success. The overwhelming majority of people who saw the film liked it. That's a fact.

I never said it did. The Force Awakens didn't sit well with a lot of people either. Star Wars has a huge fan base. Even a tiny minority represents a lot of people.

I'm not sure what "this" is or what you're trying to say. My opinion of the film isn't going to change and the fact most people liked it isn't going to change either.

One of the odd things about Luke in the OT is how devastated he is when Obi-Wan dies but it seems like he's hardly bothered that his family got burned alive.

 

Bet he would have cared if he lost hand before they died.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2018 ---

Where did I say that wasn't a thing? Rey is complex. She has serious issues about a sense of worth and belonging. One person isn't going to fix that. And her thinking turning Kylo Ren would, is the epitome of that.

You are quite good at goalpost moving.
Why are you obsessed with working Finn into this?
Rey wants to lose Kylo Ren to gain Ben. So if Ben is 100% gone forever, she won't be that torn up over losing Ren. At all. The door shutting at the end was the cue for that. It's Ben or nothing for her in that relationship.

Yes, she lost what she thought was her meaning, her purpose...to turn Kylo Ren back to Ben Solo. She lost both her father figures and the only other person we know in the films who can connect with her at that level.
But hey, wasn't a hand now was it?

 

Luke's hand is used a few poignant times in RotJ, depicting his fear of becoming like his father, "more machine now then man..." as Kenobi said. It puts doubt in his heart if he's capable to achieve that task. I know as a teen I saw a somewhat Terminator type message in that, biology and technology fighting against itself. Maybe I misread that conflict, or maybe they just veered away from it since the OT.

Since as far as I know, Kylo hasn't lost a limb, I would think something comparable for Rey would be somehow being forced to wear a mask and hide her face or part of it. A vicious scar or deformity caused fighting him. Even if at the end of the movie, she gets plastic surgery to repair it and she looks completely the same, she would know when looking herself in the mirror. It would alleviate all the criticism.

I've already posted that I don't think this trilogy is Rey's in the same way the OT and PT were Luke's and Anakin's. Disney is playing a longer game and we'll get more than 3 major moments in our hero (in this case heroine's) life. Think of it as the PT with some highlights of the CW mixed in. I tend to agree more with @Rayjefury reading this, but my reasons are different. I think his questions are valid, I'm thinking the reasoning he's being given to his questions are falling short more due to Rey's arc being in it's infancy instead of arguing it's comparable to her predecessors. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I think it just as likely it is on those of others as well.

 

I get what you’re saying, and I actually think you have a really interesting stance on Finn and Rey’s character arcs. Part of Finn’s story is his hesitance to join another cause after abandoning the First Order. But regarding Maz and Rose’s differences in how they respond to his hesitation, I think a lot of this lies in their own character traits and motives. Rose is blindly devoted to the Resistance, while Maz supports them without being directly tied down to them. She’s also Force-sensitive, and after her whole thing about seeing the same eyes in different people, it’s very possible that she knew all along Finn would do the right thing.

I do agree that Finn’s choices had a more direct impact on the Resistance, but I also think Rey’s choices are ultimately supposed to have a larger impact on the Resistance. Much like Leia and Han in the Original Trilogy, I think Finn and Poe’s character arcs are tied more to the Resistance. At the end of the day, though, the Jedi are needed to maintain the peace, defeat the dark side and restore balance to the Force, in a much broader sense. The leader of the First Order is a powerful dark side user, and Luke and Rey are the only two who could counter him. The Resistance can’t do it without them — that’s why Leia entrusts Rey with finding Luke and bringing him back. Without Luke, it all falls on Rey, and I think her choices will be more impactful on the Resistance in the long run because of that.

Going back to what I said before, I think much of Rey and Kylo being tied together comes from the influence the Original Trilogy’s narrative structure has had on the Sequel Trilogy. Luke spends less and less time with Han and Leia after the first film, and more time with his story focused on his relationship with Vader. Similarly, Rey is tied less and less to Finn and the rest of the Resistance, and becomes more tied to Kylo. (Again, I think this is because she’s Kylo’s equal in the light.)

I don’t know what Episode IX holds for their stories. I know Finn and Rey are supposed to be back together — at least more than they were in The Last Jedi — so maybe they’ll tie their stories back together somewhat.

 

We don't know what Rey needs fixing in. In TFA it was family. In TLJ it's the force. It still doesn't make sense for her to go to Kylo for that. Not when she seen him kill his own father. What kind of hole could a murderer fill? Why not go to the person that actually got off their ass to rescue her. Instead she goes to the man that almost killed her best friend. The same friend that risked everything to rescue her. I could at least understand if Kylo made an attempt to go to her. To show her he was not who she thought he was, but he never did, and never had intentions of doing so. She went begging for something that was never offered.

If we heard a woman was talking about looking for longing with a guy (Chris Watts) who killed his family. We would think she is crazy.

I bring in Finn, because her growth as a character came from her friendship with him. She didn't grow as a character with her interactions with Kylo.

 

Wow there's a lot to read in these posts. JJ made Rey's character interesting in TFA and made us want to know more. RJ completely destroyed her in TLJ. So quite frankly I couldn't care less about what Rey does in TLOS. Hopefully in the opening scene Leia sends her to the Unknown Regions to find a long lost Porg and we never hear from her again.

I'm 20x more interested in seeing Ezra or Ahsoka return than anything related to Rey.