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Learning from Failure: Is it too late to challenge Rey?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Rayjefury, Dec 7, 2018.

  1. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Yes. It's symbolic but not an actual factor in the story/growth of Luke. It could have just as easily been a scar he looked at.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2018 ---
    This is my last reply because this is now just tedious and cyclical. It doesn't matter. It's still just a symbolic loss. It plays no vested interest in his character.

    When Ren decided to overthrow Snoke is irrelevant to the fact that Ren needed Rey there to do it. He couldn't have beaten the guards and he couldn't have gotten the drop on Snoke otherwise.

    1. Where is it depicted? When Hux tries to shoot Ren. There is mutiny and chaos being prepped for. This is not a fully organized group anymore. Hux clearly doesn't respect or trust Ren.

    2. So? How does that mean anything for what the discussion was? He can still play a HUGE role going forward for the rest. Just like Yoda and Obi-Wan did. You said he was dead like it meant he was done for.

    3. Of course he could. Glad to see you realized this.

    4. This last part is why I'm done. You have built an entire thread on conjecture like this, now you throw this out there? Jesus.
     
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  2. Trooper212

    Trooper212 Rebel General

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    That's like arguing that Finn is responsible for Han dying.
    Also, how can Luke dying be a setback when it's already made abundantly clear that she doesn't really need a teacher? She basically downloaded every force ability shown in these films and then went on to train herself with the lightsaber. Which she then used to defeat about six or seven highly trained warriors. After that she just focused and used what little bit of knowledge he could share with her and lifted an entire rockslide with no difficulty.
    What else does she have to do for people realize that the entire purpose of Rey as a character is simply to be awesome. Her story is secondary to her function.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2018 ---
    I seem to recall Kylo and Hux working together on Crait so this sounds like head-canon to me. Source?
     
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  3. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    Luke's ship was in the sea. he had to find another way to help the Resistance. Luke is not done. Hopefully Luke will haught Kylo Ren routinely.
     
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  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Every scene of Hux and Ren has been about jostling for favor with Snoke. Dirty looks. Sneering.

    hux3.png

    When Hux walks in on an unconscious Ren he thinks about shooting him.

    hux2.png

    He has no interest in Ren but concern for his dead leader. Until Ren chokes him out.

    Hux isn't an idiot. He's not gonna challenge Ren single handedly for control. He'd lose.
    hux.png
    This last shot of Hux isn't exactly the look of someone ready to follow Ren...who just let his personal anger issues get in the way of snuffing out the Resistance and let them escape.

    But yes. "working together" and "head canon"

    The "working together" scene you refer to where: Kylo Ren gets in his own way and force throws Hux who tries to reel him in.


    But who is making head canon here?
     
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  5. DarthSnow

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    Sorry for the late reply, I'm still playing catch-up. I see the debate has been... spirited :D... and I honestly haven't had the chance to read through every little bit so apologies if I'm covering something that's already been said.

    I'm not going to get into the male vs. female thing, I don't really believe that needs to be an issue here. But as for her development, yes, it has been really sloppy. But the way I see it, because of how the story has gone it's bound to be a sloppy convoluted mess.

    Since Rey's "awakening" on Jakku, let's review the influences on her:
    • A First Order stormtrooper turned deserter turned Resistance
    • A war hero of the Republic turned smuggler
    • A cryptic bartender who hands her a weapon that "calls to her"
    • A First Order warlord and Darth Vader-wannabee who is still fighting the light within himself
    • A Jedi legend who has thrown in the towel and is entranced with his own failures, as well as that of his order's
    Finn, Han, Kylo, and Luke are all fighting battles within themselves, and these have overwhelming been the primary influences on her in the past couple weeks of her life. I threw Maz in there because on top of all that, Rey gets introduced to this goofy little bartender who says "This ancient weapon once belonged to the Skywalkers, and now it calls to you..." ...talk about cherry-on-the-top of a WTF ice cream sundae.

    I would agree with you that there probably wasn't much time to forge a personal relationship. But I still think she is plenty disappointed personally -- being all excited to meet Luke Skywalker, and then you meet... him?

    You could also chalk up her perceived inability to bring back Luke as one of the failures you are seeking; though, she unknowingly did bring him back by leaving after their confrontation, albeit only after thinking she really had failed.

    That may be true, but Rey doesn't know that. It's like... not believing in yourself until you hear a coach, teacher, friend, etc. tell you that they believe in you. Maybe she does possess all the right ingredients. But until she reads those texts (since that is the only teacher she has left) she's not going to believe it, or buy into it.

    To me it all circles back to: what is she going to do with all of the information she has gained in the past couple weeks? Is she going to use it to better herself, someone else, or maybe the Resistance, or the First Order, or some combination of the above? She's just been influenced by individuals from every which side of the galactic spectrum. Is she going to follow in one of those paths or make her own? To me, her biggest challenge is how to untangle the mess of the impact that all of these interactions have had on her, and once she does, how she decides to use this newfound power.
     
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  6. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Clone

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    Um, it’s stated multiple times she needs a teacher because she for the most part has little cluenas to what she’s to do with this power she has. That’s made abundantly clear when to her the Force is mostly about lifting rocks and controlling people before Luke’s lessons.

    She’s shown two, maybe three, abilities: mind trick, pushing back into Kylo’s mind in TFA (more because their minds were already connected by the mind probe in that moment), and telekinesis. Mind trick and telekinesis are considered fairly simple Jedi tricks, both of which Luke also managed to learn on his own. So many Force powers.

    I mean, she trained with a staff for how many years? A lightsaber would be half that, just don’t touch the glowing part, right? She’s also not running any fancy techniques, and it might not be as bad of a transition, especially when in Legends the first style if lightsaber fighting padawans learned was a form taken from traditional sword combat.

    Also, no. Don’t exaggerate. 6 or 7? More like 2 or 3, maybe four if you count the one she stabbed under Kylo in the beginning, which was also a situation where the Praetorians were at a bit of a disadvantage.

    She clearly still needs the books as well, indicatig she still needs to get a grasp of the philosophy side of things, and the actual balance. Not necessarily something a person can just know.

    As RoyleRancor pointed out, they clearly aren’t working together because they want to. Kylo doesn’t care for Hux and seems to use him more because he’s in military command. Hux despises Kylo by the looks of things and is pretty much working with him solely because the guy can crush his throat from across the room. He’s playing the situation as smart as he can while planning to get rid of Kylo.
     
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  7. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    These are excuses. I can understand if Rey showed a desire to become a Jedi, but she never did. Everything she has done was because other characters told her to do it. The mind link is still bull. Anything Rian put in the movie is going to get ignored. Until it can be explained the way Lucas took the time to do so. I don't believe in any force connection. Rian only did it to get Rey and Kylo together, but he had no intentions of digging into what it means in regards of the force. This is too big to just use, and then drop it. In the first trilogy. The force was explained to us, and the trilogy was built around it. The prequels was built around Midichlorians. If Rey and Kylo allegedly share a force bond, then the definition of a force bond needs to be explained to the audience.

    I wish Rey was challenged, but she hasn't. It's like the people at Lucas films are afraid to see a woman fail. If that is the case then they need to get a female in there with some backbone. Life is harsh, and Rey should reflect that. A girl living on the streets should never be able to hold her own against those who have trained for years, but Rey is more a symbol than an actual person. She has to be seen being dominant. I hope JJ can bring some humanity back into her. She was a terrible character in TLJ.
     
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  8. ThisIsNoCave

    ThisIsNoCave Clone Trooper

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    The mind link between Rey and Kylo Ren is the basis for a great deal in the sequels, both in TFA and TLJ. Rey knew little of the Force and the Jedi outside of the "myth" of Luke Skywalker prior to her Force vision when she touched the Skywalker lightsaber. Her knowledge and abilities were further unlocked when Kylo Ren interrogated her on Starkiller Base. He exposed himself in the process and Rey was evidently able to absorb a tremendous amount by virtue of that connection. Kylo Ren was able to gain insight into Rey as well, especially regarding her need to know about her parents.

    The story in TLJ built upon this established plot point, but in this case it was Snoke who fostered the connection following his first scene with Kylo Ren. Very likely it will continue to be built upon by the storyline in E9.
     
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  9. DarthSnow

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    Here's a scenario:

    Take two modern-day "fighters"... one has grown up homeless, literally fighting for their life. Maybe not everyday, but enough.
    The other has grown up with a fairly cushy lifestyle, and as a luxury gets to spar in a gym with a personal trainer.
    Who would you put your money on?

    Star Wars is an underdog story, and always has been.

    backbone? excuse me?

    The girl fought off two kidnappers in the streets of Jakku. Stole a ship, evaded a couple of TIE fighters (by flying through the wreckage of another ship), fought a maniac with a lightsaber when she could have ran, stood up to a jaded and dismissive Luke Skywalker and then gave herself to Snoke and the First Order.

    But yeah, that's all pretty tame stuff. They definitely need someone stronger than that. I can't imagine anyone complaining about the actions and abilities of that character.
     
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  10. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Clone

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    Not really excuses. They are things already laid out in the films, or concepts commonly accepted in Legends. The Force Bond is something Legends fans would likely understand the idea behind, and perhaps the next film will explain more. But giving the majority of the time we were under the impression only the two of them knew of it, there was no room to try and explain it. Was Luke or Snoke supposed to just go on about the nature of a Force Bond when Luke had no reason to and Snoke was just bragging?

    Lucas typically explained things, but only when appropriate. We had a Obi-wan and Yoda both teach about what the Force was, like Luke did, all in teaching scenarios, and..a couple lines in TPM about midichlorians when discussing Anakin. The only other time they were mentioned in the Prequel Trilogy was when Palpatine is manipulating Anakin at the theatre. Thing were always discussed and explained when it was appropriate to do so. You don’t have Yoda monologuing about the Force or midichlorians to Obi-wan or Windu just to explain things to the audience.

    Rey may not have wanted to be Jedi when the trilogy started, or when TLJ started. In TFA she wanted to be on Jakku and wait for her family, then learns she has the Force. TLJ, she’s looking for Luke to return to help the Resistance, but most importantly, she’s looking for a teacher to understand what exactly is happening to her. Through Luke, she begins to understand, the seed is planted, and she begins toward becoming a Jedi.

    And why “Anything Rian put in the movie will be ignored”? Where are you getting this from, when we have no idea what JJ has planned?

    Well she held her own first against a Kylo that wasn’t trying to kill her. She beat some guards, but it wasn’t easy and she still had training in between the two encounters and more in touch with the Force, which would’ve helped. A good chunk of the time in that fight she’s on the backfoot, only slipping in a quick surprise move.

    Life is harsh, it’s why she knows how to fight. She’s been alone, found people to trust in, but things still are going poorly. She lost Han, she lost Luke, she currently lost whatever she thought was there with Ben. She’s not perfect. Her failures and her challenges would depend greatly on what her journey is, how she sees herself. Right now it appears more emotional, more mental. She saw herself as the one to bring Luke back to the fight and to bring Ben back to the Light, yet she couldn’t, so that affects how she sees things. She seems almost lost at the end, not knowing what to do. She suffered an excruciating amount of pain by Snoke and emotional pain because of Ben, which she must get past, she must grow from and become more mature in that area, more sound in herself, who she is, and the extent of what she can actually do for a person.
     
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  11. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    A fight between a trained fighter for 10+ years, with at least two pros teaching him, or somewhat who got in some brawls in a bar with the local drunks? My money's on the pro, it's McGregor (one of the toughest guys in this world) against the sober guy at the bar without any formal training waiting to beat up a drunk... it's not even a fight. Or maybe Kylo being one of the Gracies would be more accurate, a family so skilled in martial arts it defines them. Either way, the guy at the local pub who never took a lesson has no chance until they get some training. Now, assuming that guy at the pub is a natural, which I'd say Rey is, then once she learns how to do things, then sure, underdog all the way. Before that training it shouldn't even be close.

    Take it from a guy who's frequented bars as a youth, and didn't shy away from the rowdier places. Twenty years ago, I could go in there and hold my own based only off a solid physique, some confidence and a few stray pointers like keeping your hands up to protect your face and a few small town fights.

    Put me up against almost anyone with training though, who pays attention to detail and I'm toast, even back then. Because once you get some training, you quickly reach a decent physique simply by repetition. Add some knowledge and technique and I'm in serious trouble. Sure, if I connect I might get some punch luck, but 9 times out of 10 I lose.

    Adding unfamiliar and exotic weapons in there would make it even tougher. Now you're not just fighting someone who's more skilled, you're fighting someone on their terms.

    Rey beating an injured Kylo with assistance from Finn doesn't bother me all that much. I wish it had been written differently, but maybe there will be a pay off to it that I don't see yet. The bigger issue with people defending it like there was nothing spectacular about that, or strange, or reading that maybe she tapped into the dark side or some sort of theory like that. What she did was nigh miraculous, one in a million shot stuff. I can accept that in SW, but saying it's not far fetched and acting like it should all be in a days work seems odd. To me the better defense would be "Yeah, she pulled off what seemed to be the impossible. I'm curious to see what that means moving forward."

    Edit: When I say training, I mean actual sparring with people who are trying, as well as instruction. Fights, even mock fights, not just repeating the same kick over and over again, that doesn't cut it. I beat up my fair share of trained Karate guys and I don't take much pride in it. Not all training is equal. In this case the assumption has to be that Kylo got good training vs Rey's no training. Unless they flesh out Rey some more and have it that she did receive some training, which I still think isn't impossible.
     
    #91 Sparafucile, Jan 3, 2019
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  12. DarthSnow

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    Fair enough, point taken. I guess the bigger point I was trying to make was that it's always going to be a story about the underdog somehow finding a way.

    I didn't really mean to imply that it wasn't far fetched, but you nailed it for me on the last part. She's able to do all this for a reason. Some is natural ability, some is her past experience, and some is the force. As for that last part, I really do hope that gets explained in further detail than the title of Episode VII. Yeah, the force awakened in her.... why? How?

    Even without that question being answered I would still love Rey. But I am curious if others who don't feel the same right now would soften a bit if there was some more exposition of that factor.
     
  13. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I could guarantee you I would. I think a lot of people were expecting that explanation in TLJ so that IX could ramp right into the action. I beleive that's at least part of the division. Most of my issues with Rey have to do with not why and how, but what. What effect does the awakening have on the recipient? What happens to someone when they get that power? What are the drawbacks if any? What are the effects on the galaxy or those around her? I feel the lack of an explanation irksome. I lean toward liking Rey, but that lack of an explanation, or the directors more strongly eluding to an explanation holds me back. I really hope there is a great explanation behind it and then she no longer becomes an issue and I'm left to deal with the rest.

    The problem with explaining Rey by natural ability, past experience and the force, is that Kylo has all that too in spades. It doesn't differentiate her from him, his training differentiates him from her though.

    Now something that occurred to me is that what if Kylo isn't as BA as we all assume he is. After that initial scene in TFA where he stops a blaster bolt, we've all come to believe he must be super powerful. But what if he has little to no actual combat experience? We know he beats Luke and destroys Luke's academy, killing some students with the aid of other students who eventually become the KoR. What happens between then and here however is unclear. Maybe he just broods and has tantrums on inferiors the 10 or so years in between and never really faces a challenge or get any meaningful practice? I realize I was focused on Rey being a little too BA imo and not so much on why is Kylo BA.

    Some may jump to the conclusion it is due to Rey being female, but I don't think that's it. It's that first sequence of scenes with Kylo, we're made to believe he's powerful and there's no reason to doubt it. Not to say Kylo is weak, but maybe having him as McGregor is an exaggeration, maybe he's #300 in the world. Still impressive, but not quite as impressive. So maybe Rey defeated a powerful foe in Kylo, but just not as powerful as we were led to believe.

    Back to me needing an explanation for Rey though, my fear is that there isn't, and we're left with believing force download, light meets dark, and...and... and... just because, don't be sexist. That's just not enough for me. I may still like her (just like I like Katniss or Riddick ect...), and I'll still take in SW movies in the future, but it'll become more casual rather than fanatic at least partly because of the lack of exposition. I just find it cheapens the story. I expect more out of SW I guess. That's not to say anyone else is necessarily settling by liking it, but more that, the direction the writers and story tellers are taking it, I no longer recognize as SW. It's still sci-fi, sci fantasy, so I could still enjoy it, but it'll just become another in a mix of many for me. For me, this is a decent part of the "outrage". If JJ decides not to explain it in IX, and thus giving her more depth imo, then again, by my estimation she becomes more superficial. Someone they just boosted to max ability without any reasoning, or we're to accept because the force is mysterious that way. I don't mind people in the world accepting that, but I personally need to know the what, they why and the how as a viewer. I'm fine with the parameters changing, that what I believed was only true from my own pov, I just feel I need to know what the new ones are, and we only get that with an explanation.

    As for the underdog, I agree, I just find that should be a journey, not opening fight lol. It's unconventional, not that it's not salvageable, but it takes away some of the suspense moving forward. I don't feel the same anxiety going into the final movie, the final showdown. It's the Lone Ranger without any stakes. He's the fastest draw, so you're never afraid he's going to lose one, especially not against someone he already beat.
     
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  14. DarthSnow

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    I hope so too. But where is that exposition going to come from? Maz maybe? Or, I suppose it could be a Force Ghost Luke moment, à la Luke on Dagobah in RotJ where he spoke with Yoda and Obi-Wan about his father. That probably makes the most sense. But what if Luke doesn't know?

    True. Obviously Ben has the clear advantage when it comes to training, even if it was broken off pre-maturely with Skywalker. And I get feeling that Snoke wasn't really a teacher in the sense that Skywalker was, more so just the manipulator of his already existent powers.

    I'm in no way trying to level the field between Ben and Rey, just trying to say that I still consider him raw as well.

    That's basically where I'm at too. Most of TFA is spent showing Kylo Ren as an unbalanced power, and it's easy to see how that affects him mentally. But if the same is true physically, then it's much more believable that they can fight to a stand-still, if only briefly. I also meant to point out earlier that I think it's very important to note that Rey and Kylo have yet to fight to the finish. Their confrontation was short in TLJ before Holdo's manuever, and in TFA Ren sure looked beaten, but we honestly don't know what would have happened if that chasm doesn't open between them.

    What's really curious is that for every "Rey shouldn't beat Kylo" argument, there's a "Kylo as a villain is weak and comical, not threatening." I know there is a middle ground in there somewhere, but for the most part those seem pretty contradicting to me.

    In an effort to keep this going but to get a little bit more on-topic... a third confrontation between Rey and Kylo Ren seems all but inevitable at this point in IX. Do you see him and that ongoing fight with him as one of her biggest remaining challenges?

     
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  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    i would consider it too. not to mention he's wounded and hysterical and overconfident in TFA. Ren absolutely has more training than Rey, but it's disingenuous to say she's only ever sparred with rowdy drunks or people of that ilk on Jakku. Plutt's thugs may not be the most skilled fighters, but they are fighters by trade, and she's been scrapping with people of that caliber since she was a small child.

    i doubt Rey could ever hold her own against Ren in a one to one match with both at their best mentally and physically. but that's not the story the ST is telling either, no matter how much people may want to see it.
     
    #95 FN-3263827, Jan 3, 2019
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  16. DarthSnow

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    That's what I feel we are building towards in IX though. but again, I still don't think it will be a fight to the finish. The biggest reason being that at this point, I really don't think that either has it in them to finish the other one off in a one-on-one battle. Which, I wholeheartedly support.
     
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  17. Corn Cream

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    Rian's story should be ignored, because he ignored JJ's story. The Resistance story is just as distant as it was in TFA. The Resistance came across as a bunch of idiots. Instead of bringing out the best in each other. They brought out the worse, and it wasn't necessary. I don't care about Finn helping the Resistance. I would rather he stayed with the FO. Both sides treat him like trash.

    I will always believe the force bond was a reaction to Rey and Finn. We hear about it in the second movie when the groundwork could have easily been layed for it when Kylo was on Jakku. If this trilogy is based on their interactions. Then it needs detail on how it works, and why. We didn't get any of that. The fact that Rian used Snoke as the catalyst should tell us their is nothing special between these two. The force bond has to push too many characters aside anyway. Making the story a lot smaller. It even pushes aside the actual war. It also limits Rey and Kylo as characters. They are not free to be themselves. A bond is a cage.

    I always believed people jumped the gun on Kylo being killed off in Episode IX. It's based more on fear than actually thinking it through. What good would it do if you are a business trying to build your brand? Disney is not going forward with the old characters, so the new characters have to carry the franchise. I always saw this trilogy as the rise of three characters with a continuing story.
     
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  18. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    I like Rey probably because I like Daisey. I thought her portrayal of Rey in TFA was excellent, she really gave the character a life of her own the way that Hamill gave Luke a life of his own. And then I get TLJ and I am just flummoxed by how her story unfolds. I remember watching it thinking, "is this really it? Is this all they're going to do with her"?

    I did have some hope when she went into the hall or mirrors because I thought here is where they going to add a lot of depth and provide threads that would carry us into EPIX that would need answers, and then surprise, it's subversion, it's Rey in the mirror.

    She gets short changed in mentorship (IMO) (-)
    She gets a supporting role to Luke and Kylo (-)
    She gets a heroic save on the MF (+)
    She gets a the only energy weapon combat worth talking about in the movie (+)
    She gets a heroic save lifting the avalanche (+)

    Her character is (IMO) woefully short changed in development in this movie. We follow her now because she is heir apparent to raise the new Jedi. There is nothing else about her that matters (to me) and to me that is ridiculous.
     
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  19. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Clone

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    I honestly do not see this, not do I see where people come from with it. How did RJ ignore JJ’s story, because TLJ flowed quite naturally from TFA. The key plot pieces were still in place. The only stuff that was “ignored” were things not necessarily needing an answer, or not important enough to the story and could be answered later in a book or something.

    But the Resistance *doesn’t* treat him like trash. Where are you getting that from? They accepted him quite readily and accepted his feedback on both the battering ram and Starkiller, even if he was outright BSing.

    I’m not sure what you mean by your first sentence, nor how it could have been laid when Kylo was on Jakku but *never* came close to Rey.

    The Force Bond is something that forms between two Force users in various circumstances. Snoke merely aided it. The bond is a unique story piece, and the war is still going on in IX and is a big factor.
     
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  20. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    Within the context of the SW universe, I think a lightsaber wielding Kylo (just to be clear, the character Adam Driver depicts, not the actor himself, with the force as his ally and a fully functional lightsaber despite it being scientifically impossible lol) could destroy McGregor in a fight, even if McGregor has a lightsaber of his own lol. It's in that context that I compare Plutt's henchmen to rowdy drunks. I just used rowdy drunks as a comparable to henchmen the same way McGregor or a Gracie is a comparable to a trained force using warrior like Kylo. Everyone goes up by orders or magnitude, just as they drop down when using them in a real world reference.
     
    #100 Sparafucile, Jan 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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