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Lucas' Worst Fears Realised...

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by master_shaitan, Dec 30, 2015.

  1. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    One doesn't wish to simply moan about the new movie but alas, I am afraid that new information surfaces every day that rankles me!

    Having read in the Art of The Force Awakens about the suggested cameo of Anakin Skywalker, I fear that the new writers of the Star Wars Saga have turned the Force into, as Lucas fearfully prophesised, "gobbledygook".

    Before discussing the latest bit of information that has concerned me, I should probably mention other uses of the Force in TFA (and the accompanying novels) that alerted me to this issue.

    1. Rey's Force abilities going from 0-100 in a matter of hours.
    2. Talk in Aftermath of finding the source of the Dark Side.
    3. The dismissal of Midichlorians - when there was always a genetic link to Force ability - Anakin - to Luke/Leia.
    4. JJ implying that everyone can use the Force.

    Anyway, in TFA Art Book we now have an artist saying:

    "If we see Anakin Skywalker, because he does flow back and forth between Darth Vader and Anakin, let’s see him as a character with a dark and light side," McCaig reasoned. "The reason Luke is this whole new entity is because he was the first to acknowledge his own dark side — that it was not separate from him."

    This, to me, is wrong on so many levels.

    Again, it seems to me that they are talking about the Dark Side as some external power source - when what it is in fact more about a persons mindset. Yes, the Dark Side provides access to different Force abilities and yes the accumulative evil acts of Dark Side users creates more 'dark energy' in the universe (hence why Vader turning evil made Sidious more powerful and of course this evil pushes the Force out of balance) . But it is the dark side emotions and thoughts within us all - anger, fear, hate, aggression, selfishness - that puts a person on the dark path and then gives them access to the evil power. It is these emotions that make them evil or commit evil - which leads me onto the problem at hand...

    ...When Anakin destroyed Sidious he conquered the Dark Side within himself. He acted out of compassion and selflessness and rid himself of his selfish desires. He let go of his anger and hatred. For Anakin's Force ghost to then be a mix of light and dark makes no sense (although there is an angle* you could take which I will discuss at the end but which it doesn't look like the writers are considering). If Anakin's Force ghost is his immortal spirit living on then it will no longer be a Dark Side entity in any way.

    The bigger problem here though is how they talk about Luke Skywalker - how he is a new entity because of how he acknowledged that his own Dark Side was not separate from him. This is flat out incorrect and implies something about Luke that is off the mark.

    Firstly, every Jedi understood that the Dark Side was within them. They all understood they had the potential for evil. Yoda alluded to this throughout the PT. Luke understanding that the Dark Side is what is inside him, that it is his emotions, isn't some enlightened moment for the Jedi Order. A Jedi is a Jedi because they identified their fears and passions and trained themselves to let go.

    And this leads me onto the second point - Luke is not a "grey Jedi", as a lot of people like to think.
    He doesn't skirt on the edge of good and evil, of light and dark. That isn't what a Jedi does.
    At the end of ROTJ Luke becomes a true Jedi because he conquered his Dark Side.
    He let go of his desire for power. His hatred/anger towards his father. He fear of losing his friends.
    He saw that these emotions were leading him on the "dark path" and would eventually turn him into Vader.
    (This is why the Luke we find in TFA makes little sense to me - he has regressed. The hero journey he went on is dismissed).

    If we suddenly see a Luke Skywalker who goes around saying that balance = equal quantities of light and dark then we have a huge problem. If we see a Luke Skywalker who allows passion, attachments and such like to exist because this is the "true way" to be a great Jedi, then we have a huge problem. THIS IS NOT WHAT LUCAS CREATED.

    Jason Ward wrote an article about the balance of the Force the other day and he presented a view that so many people have and I think it is utterly wrong. There is this suggestion that the balance of the Force, prophesied to be restored by Anakin = (or now =) an equal quantity of light and dark and that as part of bringing balance, Anakin had to destroy the Jedi as well! No. That isn't it at all.

    Dark Side users create imbalance in the Force because they are like a cancer. The Jedi role is to maintain balance. When there are no Jedi the Dark Siders can rise and evil runs amok. Anakin brought balance by destroying the ruling Sith (a Dark Side faction) of that time - the Dark Siders who were spreading evil across the galaxy and corrupting the natural harmony. That's what the prophesy predicted. Not all Sith/dark side for all of time (that wouldn't make sense). When the Sith (Sidious & Vader) were destroyed, balance was restored.

    The point I am getting at here is that it appears that a new set of rules concerning the Force has been written:
    - That there will be a Dark Side source, thus taking away personal responsibility. This essentially suggests that there is a source of Dark Side power that attracts people to turn bad rather than it starting off with their own emotions turning them evil and then their acts of evil empowering or increasing the Dark Side energy in the universe.
    - That a Jedi should cultivate the dark and light within them.
    - That the Jedi caused the imbalance as much as the Sith did.

    What this does (apart from contradicting the previous 6 films) is it removes the central moral theme of Star Wars (acting out of compassion for others - that there is something far bigger than yourself) and instead turns the Dark Side into the Devil on your shoulder whom it is OK to listen to 50% of the time! There just seems to be a desire to make the Jedi into something new - maybe to make them more exciting? But a Jedi isn't someone who embraces the dark side. They know of it. But they defeat it.

    What are your thoughts on this? Is the Force be skewed to create something different? Has the Force now been misunderstood? And have the new writers turned the Force into gobbledygook?




    * If Anakin Skywalker's Force ghost is to return then I hope they change how we look upon Force ghosts. What I mean is that they should instead change the Force ghost from being an independent entity - the immortal spirit of the being that died, and turn it into the projection of the living person who see's it and what it is they desire/need to see/hear.

    So for instance, when Luke needs Kenobi - his mentor, guide - he sees and hears him. The ghost is the legacy of Kenobi. It can provide Luke with new instructions, advice and knowledge but that isn't just a see-through Kenobi acting in the here and now - it is his energy being translated through Luke's mindset.

    This then could mean that when Anakin's Force ghost returns, Kylo sees the ghost he desires. Darth Vader. The sides of Anakin that can show him the darkness. However, if Rey is to see Anakin then she will see the good side. (Perhaps Kylo witnesses both at different times?).

    However, I think bringing back Force ghosts of old is a big mistake. It cheapens the events of the OT (if Anakin can just come and go as he pleases then it isn't a great sacrifice for him or a major loss for Luke).
     
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  2. Bradford Tyllestad

    Bradford Tyllestad Rebel General

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    Thanks for your input, though I didn't get all. I think the root to most bad things is people's tendency to over analyzing Star Wars beyond health. Anakin as force ghost? If Anakin has something to bring to the table storywise, then I'm ok with it. Anakin as fan service? No, please.

    I love TFA. If we get two more of this, instead of what GL's vision became somewhere in the middle of the 90's, then good times await us.
     
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  3. MarkaN

    MarkaN Rebel General

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    If Lucas feared from things like that, I don't think he would sell the franchise, atleast not under these terms.

    Second, I still have faith in Lucasfilm Story Group. They're not like Marvel ("whatever, put it in the movie, it looks cool"). I believe they have a vision for the franchise and the "grey area" is certainly something worth exploring in the Star Wars universe. Some of the best stories (KOTOR 1 & 2) revolved around that.

    Regarding Rey, she simply let the force guide her and fully surrendered to it, just like Qui-Gon tends to do in his fights. She still would be cut down by any experienced and focused opponent, but injured and internaly conflicted Kylo Ren certainly does not qualify as such.
     
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  4. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    He said he feared it in an interview before the release of TFA.

    KOTOR is a computer game. It's designed to be cool and offer exciting gameplay options. The films are utterly different. Or should be. They need to present a coherent story and a satsifying moral journey. Not just have cool Jedi doing some "grey" Force tricks because it looks good.

    This "grey area" idea in regards to what the Jedi should be is a myth. It might be that certain characters are "grey" or do things that aren't exactly kosher but when it is suggested that Luke is a better Jedi because he uses light and dark or that there needs to be equal amounts of dark side and light for the Force to be balanced then that is when the mythology goes pear shaped.


    Luke let the Force guide him in ANH when he turned off his computer and trusted his instincts. That's one thing. Going from no knowledge of the Force to doing mind-tricks, Force grabbing objects and defeating a dark sider who could stop laser bolts in mid-air is something else entirely. It completely removed the need for Jedi training.

    in TESB Luke has to find Yoda to learn about the Force and actually use these advanced skills properly and get to a point where he has a commanding use of the Force. It seems Rey already achieves that. All she will need to learn is how to control her emotions and not get angry - something anyone could teach other.

    I'm sorry, but it baffles me when people argue against this. Rey went from zero Force use to taking down Kylo and doing powerful force shizzle in the space of a few hours.
     
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  5. MarkaN

    MarkaN Rebel General

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    Link please
     
  6. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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  7. jedimasterjohnny

    jedimasterjohnny Rebelscum

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    I understand your concern based off some the things writers have about the force but I was completely fine with how they used it in the movie. Keep in mind the force is a complex thing to explain and sometimes its better to just show it in a movie than explain it with words; writers dont always articulate themselves the best when trying to explain what there doing without giving too much away. I also was concerned about some of the things alluded to in the art book, but also remember that the artist arnet the story tellers and a lot of those things were obviously vetoed by JJ and the story group since they didnt make it to the movie. And as much as a hate that dumb grey jedi concept that people want to run with and think would be "cool and badass" i dont think thats the Luke we got in that movie and i dont think thats the Luke were moving forward with. I wouldnt worry to much about this stuff until after episode 8.
     
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  8. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Let's just say Lucas sold the franchise before ROTJ. In ROTJ, Yoda says the only way Luke can become a Jedi is confront Vader as he doesn't need anymore training, yet in ESB he didn't want him to confront Vader yet because he needed more training? If Lucas weren't involved then this exact thread would pop up, "Lucas greatest fears...." And it would say Lucas feared becoming a Jedi would be cheapened if he sold the movies to Disney, as him becoming a Jedi in ROTJ contradicts what is said by Yoda/Obiwan in ESB?

    I guess what I'm saying is don't look too deep into the movies or you'll never enjoy them.
     
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  9. Unbeliever29

    Unbeliever29 Rebelscum

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    I think that it is still too early to know exactly what JJ is thinking.

    And even if he has made claims about these things that I have not read, I'm sure that he is going to be watching closely the reactions of people to his movie and either consciously or unconsciously make alterations to his ideas as the new film is being filmed.

    I don't think it was "implied" that anyone can "use the force"... at least not beyond that the force is part of all of us and can assist us if we "listen to it".
    It might help a pilot's instincts, or help aim a laser blaster for some, or make you have a "bad feeling about this". But I didn't ever get the impression that "all" people could start levitating rocks or anything if they focused. There are definitely levels of "force sensitivity" that the majority people can never surpass no matter how hard they tried beyond what we would call "instincts".

    In regards to Rey. I again think it is far too early to comment on her story yet.
    Perhaps she has received Jedi training and has been mindwiped and false memories implanted... and is starting to remember just from experiencing the force through Kylo Ren.
    Perhaps she has a special ability through the force (not all Jedi had all exactly the same abilities in the prequels as each other despite their similar training) that allows the midichlorians to communicate more directly into her subconcious.
    Perhaps more dead Jedi have been taught by Qui-Gon Jinn and Yoda to be able to communicate with the "living world" and they are whispering sectrets into her ear, but she is not trained enough to consciously see or hear them yet.
    WHO KNOWS. But that is my point. Ripping into it and calling it "gobeldegook" without knowing what her story actually is yet is ludicrous. If it turns out to be that way AFTER her story is revealed... then criticise away. But for now, you're just making presumptions about something that has yet to be revealed and that you have no idea about yet and calling it "wrong".

    In regards to the "art book" (which I have not read). What you did write about made me think.

    Firstly, during the last few millenia lots of the old knowledge has been lost on both the Jedi and the Sith sides. Especially now after the Jedi Massacre that happened in the prequels. There is no way that Yoda had the time to train Luke the way that he would have trained a Jedi who was a youngling to becoming a "Master of the Jedi council", and Yoda as great as he was was not an "allknowing" master of all the Jedi arts (Qui-Gon Jinn showing him how to commune with the living world alone is proof of this).
    What I am trying to say is that Luke despite being the last Jedi and very powerful with the force has extremely limited knowledge of the Jedi. Unfortunately for him time and circumstances have done this. Much knowledge has been lost and diluted and he would have to find his own path in many ways. Train new Jedi differently than the old masters would.

    The other thing is that inevitably the Star Wars universe must evolve and change. It can't just "stay the same" for all eternity. It was different before the prequels, it changed during the (relatively short time of the 6 movies) and it will continue to change. The Star wars universe a thousand years after these new movies would be very different... and they should be.

    Now, I never considered Luke to be "grey" because I thought that grey means that you are a force user but without the desire to be affiliated with either "faction" (whom I imagine they kind of consider to be cults, equally restricted by their extreme points of view). Luke however, definitely wants to follow the Jedi path despite the loss of knowledge he has about it... so therefore could not be "Grey".

    The concept of Anakin being half/half (if what you say is true). Kind of makes sense to me.
    I mean... if I turned into an evil person to the degree that it become a kind of split personality entirely seperate from me all of the terrible things that I did as "that personality" I would feel nothing.
    and then later in a supreme act of willpower and redemption I did an act so incredible that I returned to my former "personality" (my good self) that would be great... but all of those things I did when I was my "bad self"... all of a sudden I would "feel all of it". The memories would be there still, no "redemption" would take that away. I would not be like "those younglings I slaughtered, that planet I commited genocide on... I'm a good guy again now, so it's all cool".
    Sure, those memories would prevent me from ever regressing into a monster again, but that "darkness" of my terrible acts would not just disappear from memory. Being good with a darkness makes perfect sense to me in regards to Anakin and his inner Vader.

    Lastly, about the "balance". Even when I watched the prequels I always thought it was strange.

    I mean as far as the Jedi knew there were no Sith (for a millenia if I remember correctly) but they all knew the legend about "the one" that would restore balance to the force.

    BUT THERE WERE NO SITH as far as they knew at that time. So what "balance" did they believe the legend was referring to? Why would they even talk about that legend to each other at all?
    There were lots of Jedi, and no Sith. How exactly was the "chosen one" meant to "restore balance" in that scenario?
    The only "imbalance" that existed was that there were too many light force users and no dark force users.

    Then "the force" fathers a child by itself. Which turns out to be Anakin. Into a universe that is apparently imbalanced and therefore apparently needs to be rebalanced. What exactly was "the forces" goal when it created Anakin in the first place?

    Other than Anakin becoming a Sith and killing the majority of the Jedi (which of course is exactly what happens) what other "balancing" act could have occured? The result? 2 Jedi masters and 2 Sith lords survive... which is balanced.

    I could go on... but that is what I thought when I first read what you wrote.
     
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  10. MarkaN

    MarkaN Rebel General

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    Thnx, but that's not nearly precise. I'm not convinced...

    And no, not everyone can use the force, still only force-sensitives like in the whole Lore so far. Finn takes the lightsaber and he gets demolished, first by a special forces stormtrooper, then by Kylo Ren. I don't know what movie some people were watching.
     
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  11. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    Or, her ability was always there and she starts to learn how to control it. Either way - didn't bother me much.
    Maybe she's simply much more powerful than anyone we have seen before - we just don't know that yet. That may be the point.

    And that reflects on The Force Awakens how?

    Which, despite stiff competition, is one of the silliest aspects of the prequels.

    "The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it. My sister has has it..."
    That made sense. That is as much info as we needed. Family lines can be strong with the Force. And family lines exist.

    Which leads into your fourth point...


    Lucas said that back in 1981 too. From the ROTJ story conference transcripts:

    Kasdan: "The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?"
    Lucas: "Yes, everybody can do it."
    Kasdan: "Not just the Jedi?"
    Lucas: "It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it."
    Marquand: "They use it as a technique."
    Lucas: "Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate."


    Which makes far more sense that it being purely genetic - ie passed on from the inherently gifted to their offspring - and then portraying the Jedi as a bunch of celibate monks who forbid attachments.

    Do you not see the conflict of interests there?
    It's almost like having the Jedi repeatedly saying how the future is "always in motion" and is "impossible to see" yet having them basing everything on some prediction of the future, like a prophecy or somethi--
    D'oh!

    Portraying the Jedi that way in the prequels makes no sense. The inherently gifted have to come from somewhere to pass on their gift in the first place, if it is all about genetics. And Jedi ain't getting much action. So in either case there must be plenty of "nobodies/anybodies/somebodies" with great force ability out there for the Jedi to even exist in the first place.

    I prefered it when it was simply an energy field created by all living things. Part of everything - an aggregate of the cosmic psyche. Affected by everyone; and affecting everyone simultaneously. Some people just happened to be really in tune with this energy. But it was not exclusive, it was inclusive - and it all came down to you and your own mindset.
    That resonated as something genuinely spiritual which the audience could identify with.

    But it was rejected, so what's the issue? Go look at the prequel art books, the artists are quoted saying all sorts of crazy things that didn't make the finished movies. One guy painted the ghost of Qui-Gon on Utapau. Lucas told him, no, we're not going there...
    It's just conceptual.

    He's experienced a profound trauma between ROTJ and TFA, and he's become a recluse troubled by guilt. That's kind of all we know.

    Just like that Anakin concepts, that stuff about the sand pouring on to Luke - it's just another rejected concept.
    Seems to me like it was very abstract anyway - more like someone else's vision of Luke, rather than a literal situation he was in.


    I see zero reason to presume this is going to happen.

    JW shares reasonable account of entire movie outline based on leaked shooting schedule - no-one seems to accept it.
    JW shares load of BS about the Force from the depths of his own tiny little mind - now we are citing him as a reference?

    Don't worry. Balance is the balance that it always was. As in a calm lake; a clear blue sky. Harmony. No Sith. Not equal amount of dark and light or Jedi and Sith, or any of that crap.
    I don't see anything in TFA to say otherwise, or to undermine the balance that was achieved previously.

    But you've got to meet in the middle here. If we say there is going to be an Episode VII at all, then there has to be a new threat, and a new set of goalposts, to an extent. There's got to be peril, and we are going to have to percieve that as "imbalance" in the context of what has gone before.

    Let's not forget:

    Lucas: "... and the third deals with moral and philosophical problems. The sequel is about Jedi Knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned. The necessity for moral choices and the wisdom needed to distinguish right from wrong."

    I can still see the sequels dealing with these issues, above anything else.
    I think Abrams has intentionally steered clear of "the Sith" for the very reasons you suggest.
    Hopefully "the prophecy" will be just kind of swept under the carpet while they are at it...
     
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  12. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    Seeing as JJ threw many of the things we knew and loved to the garbage, it wouldn't surprise me that they ruin the Force too. I have to admit though that this really saddens me. I was really pumped to see TFA and though I knew that JJ and Disney would not do everything the way Lucas did, I never expected them to just trample all over everything we loved so much. I believed in JJ when he said that he was a childhood fan yet what the heck happened to his way of seeing things? I know people who became fans with the PT and who hadn't grown up with the OT and they aparently know more about how the Force works than JJ Abrams. How could he do this? Just copy/paste ANH, add three good guys and a new droid and stomp over what we knew and loved and all of a sudden he thinks he made SW more awesome? My hearts hurts when I think that the day may come that I will find SW movies to be a waste of time because if this continues we are soon going to be getting sparkly Jedi that shine when the sun hits them and Jedi who shoot Dark Force Lightning and Sith who can call on Yoda's spirit to aid them in battle! And here we were thinking that all we had to fear was that we might see a Donald Duck or a Goofy hidden in the crowds of aliens. :(
     
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  13. A Few Luke Screws

    A Few Luke Screws Rebel General

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    We still don't know what Rey's previous experience with the force is. many people (myself included) believe that she was trained by Luke at some point and that Luke blocked those memories from he when he hid her on Jakku in order to protect her from turning to the dark side the way Kylo did. So who's to say that she couldn't sub-consciously channel the force abilities that she learned as a child. I don't think it's a good idea to judge TFA until the trilogy is complete... At least, if you want to enjoy any of the new films, that is.
     
  14. BabyDontHurtMe

    BabyDontHurtMe Rebel Trooper

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    Star Wars fan's are notorious for overthinking.

    You know what the force is? It's space magic.

    This franchise has been going on for decades, things will inevitably change and how things work will never be set in stone. You do know that people who work on this franchise inevitably leave and are replaced with people who have different ideas right?

    The way the force works has already been changed and twisted so many times that i don't think anyone knows how it originally was meant to work before ANH was released.

    And no one can possibly do anything about it. Star Wars will always be changing for decades to come and if you try to make sense of everything and try make decades of history make sense and fit into a nice neat pile you will never ever be satisfied with the franchise ever again.

    Disney tried it's best to try and clear the slate as much as possible by completely dismissing the EU. But that is not enough i think if you're going to overthink this as so many fans are doing.
     
    #14 BabyDontHurtMe, Dec 30, 2015
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  15. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Maybe. But I can't see an explanation for how Rey, someone who has been on Jakku since aged 5 and can't recollect any Jedi training (which I really doubt she had) goes from not knowing the Force to some pretty advanced stuff. I don't think it made sense "in universe" and I also think it happened too fast for there to be any real drama. Yes, I could be jumping the gun and maybe she is some new Force entity but right now it looks like they have messed with how we thought the Force works.

    I always took it that the Jedi knew there was an imbalance but didn't know why. Then the Sith turn up and they realise that it must be them - and that gives greater value to the prophesy which they perhaps doubted - only Qui Gon really seemed to value it.

    The Force 'Fathers' Anakin (if that is what indeed happened) at a time when the Sith were beginning to emerge and start the latter part of their plans - which may have included Plagueis messing with the Force. So this act might have been the major imbalancing action, hence why it is in the Tarkin novel.

    Again, balance of the Force isn't 2 Jedi and 2 Sith. When Anakin kills Sidious and himself there are zero Sith and one Jedi!
    The Dark Side simply pollutes the Force. It destroys the natural harmony in the universe. And the more powerful the Dark Side is, the more the Force goes out of balance. The reason the Sith cause the imbalance is due to how much evil they create across the galaxy - through their use of the Force and the way in which they oppress. Note the words in the opening crawl of ROTS - "Evil is everywhere". That is the key thing.
    When Anakin destroys Sidious that Force of evil is eradicated. Things go back to normal.
    The Jedi don't cause an imbalance themselves. They are "keepers of the peace" in regard to the Force as well.

    We don't, but it look ominous. And personally, it took me out of the scene.



    It suggests where they are taking the ST as a whole. I wasn't just focusing on TFA.




    I'm not suggesting it is just genetic. But that genetics do play a part. Bit of a coincidence that a father and his 2 kids are strong in the Force.
    Midichlorians is just a word given to what has always been there imo.
    And yes, midichlorians would be in all living things and thus the Force would, to some extent, be open to anyone if they gave it the time and attention.
    But I'm doubting that anyone should be able to have the power to do standard Jedi things. If they could I think it would cheapen the Skywalker tale.
    You also have to ask why did Yoda and Ben wait for Luke and Leia? If everyone could be powerful in the Force depending on how much belief and training they had, then really the twins weren't needed. But let's wait and see what happens. I just thought JJ made a comment somewhere that was more suggestive of what I was saying....



    Yet there is a suggestion that we will see this in VIII. Just saying, if it does happen, I think it is a wrong turn.



    He experienced some pretty profound trauma's 30 years ago and got passed those!
    Just strikes me that self-pity doesn't seem to fit a Jedi Master who has overcome huge hurdles and defeated the Dark Side already.

    He also seems to have a pretty strong idea of what Luke is like and I am guessing he would've discussed this with JJ and co. I'm just saying the grey Jedi idea is plain wrong and it concerns me that it was even on the table.



    If they go down the route of "Luke is a grey Jedi" because that is the way to be, then that implies the dark side/light side = balance notion.


    I'm just pointing to what he says because it mirrors the opinion many people seem to have.

    Source of the Dark Side...? This mysterious Story Group have made this idea canon - I am just hoping it remains an idea or an incorrect assumption by a character within those novels rather than find its way into the ST.


    Sure. New threat. New challenges. New imbalance.
    I'm just saying, let's not turn the Dark Side into a literal Devil, let's not change the idea of a Jedi into being in the middle of light and dark and let's not cheapen the Force by having people being able to achieve amazing feats without any training. That's all. Jury's out. They might not mess it up. But so far, going by the ideas in Aftermath, how Rey went from zero to hero in hours and the way in which Luke has been turned into a self pitying wreck - well, I have my concerns.

    The fact that you have come up with this (speculative) idea in itself shows that you have a problem with Rey's advanced Jedi abilities.
    So much so that you have come up with an entire backstory that includes why she was on Jakku, how she learned to become a Jedi and how it was unlocked by Kylo.

    I think the twist in VIII will be: "No, I am not your father".

    And even if Rey is Luke's daughter, are we seriously to believe that she would have learned up to the age of 5 all these incredible things about the Force and then even after this being unlocked by Kylo, still be unaware who her parents were? What's more, even if she was trained up to the age of 5, would she even then be powerful enough now, with no further training & no knowledge of the Force, to fight and defeat a trained Dark Side warrior who can stop laser bolts in mid air?!!

    It just strikes me that in TFA there were a lot of scenes put it because they would be cool rather than fleshing them out so they made sense.
     
  16. Yoda 2

    Yoda 2 Rebel Official

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    Rey is a bad ass and whooped Kylo Ren's butt! She's awesome! Case closed!
     
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  17. Stefynoseu

    Stefynoseu Rebel General

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    Here's my thought after watching it several times plus all 6 episodes.

    The force doesn't care if you are big, small, alien, male, or female. It doesn't judge.

    Yoda, in ROTJ tries to explain to Luke how powerful the force is if he would let go and believe (ship stuck in swamp scene). Luke thinks Yoda expects the impossible, but with the force there is no such thing. Yoda is frustrated w/ Luke because he can't see this.

    Kylo was injured psychologically and physically. He also has been a bit of a spoiled brat, being handed this gift of genetics & family connection, much like a dark prince. He's not used to being challenged.

    ....meanwhile Rey tapped into the force and "let go." She wasn't bound by limitations, she felt the force & let it just flow through her, which was evident in her eyes. Kylo was in awe because he hasn't experienced that yet, but clearly he wants to desperately!

    Once Snoke finishes training him, I expect him to be a badass. Next time he will likely kick her butt, but it makes sense to me she won this round.

    Besides, the trench separated then. Kylo probably had some fight left...

    Just my thoughts, no disrespect if you disagree

    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2015 ---
    Sorry..lots of typos darn I-phone! :)
     
    #17 Stefynoseu, Dec 31, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
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  18. FreddieMac

    FreddieMac Clone Commander

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    I have heard so many people complain that in an hour Rey went from zero to hero with the force. This is something Lucas would not want, but in Clone Wars, which is still canon, Darth Maul's brother, goes from zero force usage to being able to defeat both Ventruss and Count Dooku in the span of about 5 minutes. Something that was approved by Lucas when he controlled it all. Not only does that say Rey can do it in the hour of a movie, she could apparently easily become more powerful then Ren during that time. The plot holes are not as big as one may put forward.

    My friend who is just getting into the Star Wars EU stuff asked me to explain how some Jedi or Sith are more powerful than others. I explained it like this, there is this game called basketball. Everyone can play basketball, there is nothing preventing me from doing so. But, I would never make it in the NBA. There are people who are just born with attributes that make them more suited to playing basketball. And even with those born with that limited talent, there is only one or two Michael Jordans at any one given time in history. It takes years of practice and dedication to really focus one's understanding of the craft, but everyone can give it a try.
     
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  19. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Rey went from not believing basketball existed to hitting 3 pointers and beating Michael Jordan in a one on one, in the space of a few hours.

    I always thought that to get to that level, it requires training, discipline and hard work.

    Maybe it will turn out that the Force itself awakened her and matrixed in some advanced skills. Maybe this was the Force reacting to the imbalance again. Whatever is explained (or likely isn't) I believe a strong component of Luke's journey was his slow progress from farm boy to Jedi Knight. When he was training with Yoda on Dagobah he felt out of his depth and unlikely to succeed. With Rey and Luke, I'm wondering who will be training who!
     
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  20. Old Biff from the Future

    Old Biff from the Future Dune Sea Hermit

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    Rey is awesome
     
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