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SPECULATION Luke isn't the last jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by KiraSolo, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. KiraSolo

    KiraSolo Rebel Commander

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    I've just come back from another viewing of TFA, and I had a thought on the fate of the Jedi.
    When Snoke was discussing the danger of Luke's return, he said "If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise". This seemed strange to me, as even should Luke return it would take him years to find new force-sensitives and train them in the Jedi arts from scratch, leaving plenty of time for the First Order's opportunity to kill him and prevent this. That's when it clicked that there may still be some of Luke's students out there, already near the completion of their training and in hiding as they await their master's return.

    In Return of the Jedi, Luke says "I am a Jedi", to which Yoda replies "not yet". Only when Luke defeats Vader does he become a Jedi. This logic could be applied to The Force Awakens, where Luke is the only true, fully-trained Jedi, however there could be a number of apprentices hidden in the galaxy whose training has been halted by Luke's disappearance.

    This could be why Snoke is worried about Luke's return - he is the only one who can complete their training and create a new generation of jedi. And if they are already well-trained this should not take long to do. It's possible that when Ben "destroyed it all", this means the temple, the teachings, the few jedi who have already completed their training (it makes sense that they would sacrifice themselves to get the younger students to safety).

    This could just be me in wishful thinking, as I was looking forward to seeing the new generation of jedi in the new film and disappointed to see Luke's status as the galaxy's last jedi still remains thirty years later. But after thinking on this I believe what I have written could indeed be the case.

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. BB-Rey

    BB-Rey Guardian of the Zoetrope

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    I agree. I don't think Luke is the last Jedi. I think it's most likely that he hid or told the others to go into exile until the time is right and his daughter returns to him. At the same time, he possibly could be and it would add greater importance and reason for Rey to not fall to the Dark Side. I personally would like there to be Jedi and see them in combat with the Knights of Ren.
     
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  3. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Snoke probably just meant that Luke will be able to re-train and make more Jedis.
     
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  4. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Ever since Max von Sydow's character utter that line that without the Jedi, there is no balance in the Force; I have been worried about how Disney would portray the Force in future movies. The line made no sense to me. Why would the Force needed the presence of the Jedi to be balanced? Now, I understood about the lack of balance in the first two trilogies. It seemed obvious to me that both the Jedi and the Sith regarded and practiced the Force in extreme ways. But they had ceased to exist, thanks to Anakin. And with Luke still alive and the villains - Snoke and Kylo Ren - not being that impressive, I don't understand that line uttered by von Sydow.

    I really wish Disney and Lucasfilm had not decided to explore the idea of balance in the Force. From what I have seen in "The Force Awakens", I get the feeling that deep down, they have no idea in what they are tackling.
     
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  5. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Disney has no idea about anything .
     
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  6. KiraSolo

    KiraSolo Rebel Commander

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    While I always found the idea of both Jedi and Sith upsetting the balance interesting, I never saw it that way. My interpretation of the whole "balance of the force" idea was that the Force, being connected to all living things, had to remain a steady energy for peace to prevail, and the chaotic nature of the dark side upset this balance. As a result it was the duty of the Jedi to put a stop to the dark side and maintain peace in the galaxy so balance would remain in the Force.
     
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  7. Darth Nole

    Darth Nole Rebel General

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    I really wish that JJ/KK would just do us all a favor and reboot the prequels.
     
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  8. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    Think of Luke as a start, a foundation of the Jedi. As long as he and his pupils survive to develop his teachings, then "New Jedi" are certain. If Luke gets killed or somehow unable to teach, then the Jedi go extinct.

    It's pretty straightforward.
     
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  9. TheWusster

    TheWusster Rebel Commander

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    They will not diminish the luke/rey thing by having other jedi crawl out of the woodwork.
    Imagine some random dude showing up - "hi. I'm Tom. Remember me? You were training me."

    I, for one, detested the scene in AOTC where a few dozen jedi fight in a gladiator arena.
    It was like lucas took the special and mysterious thing of being a jedi, and decided that he wanted to show them at their peak. What he didn't foresee is the way it would diminish how special it was... And, the sensory overload! Yikes!
     
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  10. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    This isn't about characters feeling special. It's about them being able to be a force against the dark side. At this juncture there are 8 villains that can use the Force.

    And of course no one is going to come out of the woodwork, but having only a single Jedi and a student makes no sense for the scope of the threat.
     
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  11. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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    Rey is referenced towards the end of the leaked script to the WGA as the next generation of Jedi beginning her journey.
     
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  12. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Nope, the Jedi are required to keep the Force balanced as if they are not around the Dark Side gains power and evil runs amok in the galaxy.
    The Jedi did not create imbalance - the problem with them (PT) was that they became too entrenched in the politics of the Republic and the Sith outplayed them.
    It is the Sith or another Dark Side cult that imbalances the Force.
    The Jedi listen to the Force and follow its will.
    The Sith/KOR use the Force to enact their own will/desires (for greater power). That is what causes imbalance.

    So Max Von Sydow's line makes perfect sense to me.

    There I did it - I defended TFA!:eek:
     
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  13. Darth Koraak

    Darth Koraak Rebel Trooper

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    He is totally right in saying that the force is unbalanced without the Jedi.
    First, what creates balance? Both, light and dark, need to be present. In TPM there was only the light side (or at least outnumbered the last two Sith) and therefore the force was unbalanced and needed to be balanced by the Chosen One. The Jedi became selfish and arrogant because there were no threat to them. Anakin/Darth Vader needed to diminish the number of Jedi to 2 to equal the number of the Sith. Now on both sides there were 2 members, Yoda and Obi-Wan vs Sidious and Vader = Balance is restored. In the OT the last 2 Jedi died and Luke remained until the end, defeating the Sith, we all know this.
    In TFA, the Dark side returned with Snoke, Kylo and the KoR, killing all the newly trained Jedi, thus unbalancing the Force again. The Dark side outnumbered the Light side = Unbalanced. Luke needs to return and train other Jedi, Rey, to balance the Force again. I imagine it like a scale and putting the number of force users on the different sides until the scale is in balance.
     
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  14. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    No, no, no! That isn't how it works.
    Sorry for the negativity, but people keep getting this utterly wrong.
    Balance has nothing to do with equal numbers of Jedi and Sith.
    It is the Sith/Dark Siders that cause imbalance.
    The Jedi's role is to destroy the Sith to maintain balance.
    That is why Tekka says what he does. He see's the Dark Side taking over. He knows that it is vital to find Luke and bring back the Jedi Order.

    Sith use the Force for their own means = imbalance
    Jedi listen to the Force and perform it's will - keep balance.

    The jedi in the PT were no selfish at all. They simply took their eye off the ball somewhat due to their arrogance (which comes from 1000 years of never facing the Sith - the new Jedi were inexperienced in dealing with the Dark Side).

    Lucas confirmed that it was the Sith's destruction in ROTJ that brought balance so why people keep talking about this equal Sith/Jedi number thing is really beyond me.
     
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  15. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    If the sith were extinct for a 1000 years, than how were the jedi supposed to bring balance? The problem with the whole ,,balance of the force" idea is that it makes not too much of a sense imo. Neither the jedi nor the sith/other dark side users can impact the Force (which is a galaxy sized energy field) they just use it. The Force is generated by all living things, so it will exist with or without the users. From the aspect of the Force the lives and numbers of sith/jedi is 100% insignificant. Well, if the Force is divided to two sides than I can imagine what imbalance could mean. But from what I know the Force isnt divided, there is only one giant energy field which surrounds and binds everyone, and the dark side users use the same Force as the Jedi.
    The whole idea of ,,the one who will bring balance to the force" was only made up because Lucas needed some reason for Anakin to be important enough.
     
    #15 General_Tarkin, Jan 4, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
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  16. Darth Koraak

    Darth Koraak Rebel Trooper

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    If the Dark side unbalances the Force, then why is it a part of the Force? In TCW, there is this Father, symbol of the Force, who has 2 children, a daughter representing the Light side and a son representing the Dark side. The Dark side has to exist because it is a part of the Force. GL knows nothing about the Force (okay, just kidding)
     
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  17. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    The way I took it was that the Jedi weren't even that aware of the Force going out of balance. The prophesy was something that may or may not be relevant.
    They were pehaps even arrogant in not noticing it. But you have to give the Sith credit. They were patient. And then when they did emerge you can see that the imbalance became greater and then the dark side clouded the Jedi.
    So when the Sith appear after a millennium the Jedi THEN realise that the prophesy is in fact relevant and Skywalker might be important after all.

    The Dark Side is the darkness in us all. Yes, there are and always will be those two sides, light and dark, to the Force.
    The Sith cause imbalance because of their ability to use the Dark Side and spread evil across the galaxy.
    If there were no Force users, then there would be balance - even though light and dark would still exist together.
    People would still do good and bad things. And when it comes to the Force - it is an energy field created by all living things.
    But the Sith go beyond just doing bad things as they use the dark side of the Force to do evil. This is what corrupts the Force. This is what is unnatural. Cancerous.
    The Jedi are a reaction to this. Their existence is essentially down to the people using the Dark Side.
    This is because the Jedi enact the will of the Force. They listen to it rather than commanding it for their own means.
    And the will of the Force will always desire the eradication of those beings who are using the Force for their own gain - causing imbalance.
     
  18. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    They were pretty aware of that prophecy, as all jedi immidiately knew what Qui-gon was talking about. Non of them said things like: ,,What are you talking about Qui-gon? Oh, that old prophecy that noone cares about."
    The Jedi order was pretty suprised by the returning of the sith. I think they were waiting for another kind of imbalance. Or the movie isnt written very well.
    I get what you are trying to say, the sith did cause some kind of imbalace, imbalance in the lives of the mortals. But again, from what we know about the Force, the lives and deaths of the dark side users/jedi dont affect it in any way. Anything which happened during the two trilogies did not cause any effect to the Force. The living things will generate it even if all jedi and sith die, the Force will still exist. The Force is something lot bigger than any mortals in the SW lore. The jedi and the sith can use it if they are Force-sensitive and train enough. But they are still mortals who will live and die as any regular creature. Their lives have no effect on the giant energy-field which sorrunds the whole galaxy, therefore: The Force cant be balanced or imbalanced.
     
    #18 General_Tarkin, Jan 4, 2016
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  19. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I didn't say they weren't aware of it - just that they didn't know if it was relevant or not. They didn't know if the Force was out of balance.
    Then the Sith reveal themselves and stuff goes down in TPM causing imbalance.

    And the films express the complete opposite of what you say. Once the Sith are destroyed there is balance.
     
  20. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    Sorry, but I have to disaagree. Please think it trough a bit. If the Force is an energy field enerated by all living things, than how can the USERS affect it in any way? If the sith die nothing will change with the Force. The Force is bigger than mortals and their pathetic wars, jedi or not. There will be balance in the Republic or in the lives of the mortals. But not in the Force. Because the term ,,balance" is unreconcilable with the Force. There is no imbalance or balance. There is just the energy field.
     
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