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SPECULATION Luke left because he didn't want to murder Ben

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by Sithwalker, Jan 15, 2016.

  1. odmichael

    odmichael Rebel Official

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    [​IMG]
     
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  2. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    ...never gets old :D.
     
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  3. Master Padawan

    Master Padawan Rebel Trooper

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    Yeah, I always thought something along those lines.

    People are saying that going into exile was out of character for Luke - like why didn't he fight back?
    Well, the opening crawl says the First Order took advantage of his absence to grow powerful, so the situation wasn't that desperate when he left.

    The one thing he could have done that perhaps no one else could do was defeat and kill his own nephew...

    ... and yeah, it would be totally out of character for Luke to do that. He was always looking for another way, even in the face of certain death.

    So my guess is he went looking for answers... maybe to deal with his rage, maybe to figure out what, if anything, he could do for Ben.
    He just never found them.
     
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  4. ArynCrinn

    ArynCrinn 1030th Lieutenant (Jr Mod)

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    Key word there is "assumed."


    I mostly agree with you here....
    I'm just thinking that Luke wouldn't kill Ben, because Luke believes in redemption.
    His belief in redemption is so strong, that he was willing to die before he would kill someone like Vader.
    I don't see why it would be any different with Ben.

    And also, if he killed Ben, Leia would never forgive him for it.


    Leia didn't know Ben was there. She only found out when Han told her.

    I fully disagree with this.

    Luke is not judge, jury and executioner. He doesn't go around the place killing people because he decided they should die, or because of what they might do. If Luke
    killed Ben because he killed his Jedi students and his wife, it would be out of vengeance, which is entirely of the dark side.

    If Ben did indeed kill all these people, it could not have happened while Luke was around to do anything.
    By the time Luke returned to find everything in ruins, there would have been nothing he could do about it.
    Ben would have been long gone into the Unkown Regions.


    I agree, especially since the upcoming novel, New Republic: Bloodlines is set 5 years prior to TFA, and is said to feature "cute" Han and Leia moments.
    If Han and Leia are still together 5 years before TFA, then either Ben hasn't betrayed Luke, or they simply haven't heard anything from in a while.
     
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  5. Old Biff from the Future

    Old Biff from the Future Dune Sea Hermit

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    You may be on to something here
     
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  6. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Who's on to something ?
     
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  7. TheFettMan

    TheFettMan Rebel Official

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    Luke wig out & do a Carrie like scene when all the new Jedi & his wife; "Mara Jade" cough cough .. get smoke checked by the KoR would be a cool thing to see.
    ;)
    I agree that Luke's hate & anger towards Ben may have driven him into remote exile but I guess we will all get more details in Ep 8 huh :confused: .

    TFM
     
  8. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Based on what we've seen with Luke's fighting, as much as I'd want to see him lash out, it would look a tad odd to me .
     
  9. Skywalker83

    Skywalker83 Rebel Trooper

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    First post, go easy on me.. I've been on the site a few times and had good reads on certain subjects regarding the characters and plots, good stuff. As others have said I think Luke knew/knows the conflict going on within Ben, I'm just wondering if he senses, like Leia, that Ben may realize his errors down the line and have knowledge of what Snoke is teaching him, which could be turned against him if Ben is brought back to the Light. I'm not saying Luke left for good/not good reasons, but I'm almost wondering if leaving for the first Jedi Temple to meditate or learn about this ancient enemy may be part of a chess game with Snoke, a bigger picture then evening the score with his nephew? I don't think that everyone possibly died in the Jedi purge, but maybe Luke was only training a few and they all became the KOR after Snoke/Ben turned them? Luke was simply waiting for someone/several ppl to come along to spring his plan into action, thus R2 turning on after Rey returns. I'm not sure I buy all of Abrams explanations about things as he's known to try to convolute ppl's minds lol.
     
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  10. Force238

    Force238 Rebel Commander

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    Perhaps Luke had force vision(s) of two kinds of possible futures. Perhaps Luke had foreseen that in one kind of possible futures, he would track down Ben to either try to convert him back or to stop him from committing further evil, but then Luke would inevitably be influenced by anger toward Ben, and would end up killing Ben and falling to the darkside himself. However, in Luke's vision(s) of the other kind of possible futures, he would not confront Ben, but then another apprentice would always emerge who would eventually redeem Ben. Trusting in the Force, Luke decided to hide himself away and to wait for the new apprentice to appear.
     
  11. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Luke is also not a raging revenge filled coward. Leaving his sister and to deal with her evil son just because you can't stand the sight of him and may kill him? Leaving because you can't control your anger and hate? You say Luke believes in redemption, then why didn't he stick around to help him come back to the light? He's too mad so he vanishes? NO WAY!

    That is totally out of character for Luke. He confronted Vader, not ran from him. He would have confronted Kylo, not ran away with his tail between his legs to let the evil grow in his nephew. And you know what, Luke would have done what was necessary if it came down it. Just like Obi-Wan was sent to kill Anakin. Obi-Wan failed by not killing Anakin and stopping his evil. He failed the Galaxy.

    The ONLY reason Luke vanished is guilt stricken grief. Somehow Luke believes he's the reason for the death of the Jedi and the fall of his nephew. That is why he's gone. He believes the Galaxy is better off without him. That's why the plea from Rey to come back was so emotional.
     
    #31 techsteveo, Jan 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2016
  12. ArynCrinn

    ArynCrinn 1030th Lieutenant (Jr Mod)

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    Why didn't Luke stick around? Because there was nothing left to stick around for!

    If Ben waited until Luke was gone before he destroyed the new Jedi, do you think Ben was just going to wait around for Luke to come back so he could talk to him about it?
    "Hi uncle. While you were gone, I killed everyone. I just wanted to let you know, so I've been waiting around for you to come back."
    I certainly don't think so.
    I imagine that Luke would have returned to find everything in ruins, and Ben long since departed into the unknown regions.

    I actually think Ben is the one who hid from Luke, not the other way around. Lucky for Ben, he had old Snoke to help him with that.... you know Snoke, the guy who's been hiding in the shadows since long before Luke was even born.

    I believe the main reason why Luke has "allowed" Ben to continue doing whatever he's been doing, is because Luke hasn't been able to find him.


    How do you know Luke wouldn't allow someone to live? That's exactly what he did with Vader.

    Like I said before, Luke is not judge, jury and executioner. He's never been that before, so why would he suddenly become that?

    I can't see any reality in which Luke, who was right about his father, would ever be so willing to give up on someone else... especially someone who is more clearly conflicted than Vader was.

    Also, Obi-Wan didn't really fail the Galaxy by not killing Anakin. Obi-Wan actually made it's salvation possible.


    That doesn't really work for me.
    If he's just going off to hide, why seek the first Jedi temple?
    It's not too hard for other people to seek the first Jedi Temple... but to seek a random, unimportant planet? That's a bit more difficult.
     
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  13. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    We don't know Snoke was hiding in the shadows. Leia knows who he is. One would assume Luke would too. So what you and OP are saying is that Luke told Leia "I'm out of here. I can't find him and if I do I'd kill him anyway so I'm going to go ahead and leave so I don't turn to the dark side and kill your son"

    That is not the Luke Skywalker we've seen.

    But he did. He left. He tried. Han even said so "If Luke couldn't reach him how could I?" He failed to reach him. He feels guilty about that.

    Obi-Wan and Yoda both failed the galaxy. That was the point of Revenge of the Sith. Obi-Wan could have saved countless lives and made it much more difficult for Palpatine and the Empire had he delivered the final blow to Anakin. At that time, Anakin didn't deserve redemption. It took Luke coming into the picture for his redemption to become possible. A father and sons bond redeemed Vader.

    The Emperor was probably the only other person to know the location of the Jedi Temple, which is why the map had a section deleted. What better place to hide than one powerful in the force and unknown to anyone.

    Back to the original topic. Luke was not a revenge filled person that had to excuse himself from the fight for fear of turning to the dark side. It would totally diminish his character and make Rey's arrival make no sense.

    Rey: "Please come back to the fight, Leia needs your help. I need your help. I want to learn the ways of the force and become a Jedi like you!"
    Luke: "Sorry, I can't. If I see that nephew of mine I might kill him and turn to the dark side"
    Rey: "He just killed Han Solo and helped blow up the entire Republic"
    Luke: "Sorry about that. I guess I should have stuck around and helped out but I was too angry and didn't want to turn to the dark side"

    Not in a million years will the writers go that route.
     
  14. KiraRey_KyloRen

    KiraRey_KyloRen Rebel General

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    Absolutely, killing Darth Vader would stop him from killing people too, he destroyed an entire planet
     
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  15. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    One more point. I believe Episode 8 will tell a story of Luke's redemption. The OT was about the son helping to redeem the father. The ST will be about the daughter helping to redeem her father...Luke. He failed to protect his Jedi. He failed to keep his nephew from turning. He failed his family and friends by leaving and things spiraling out of control because he didn't stay and finish the job of finding and bring Snoke and Ben to justice. He may have failed Rey by not being there as well.

    Rey is the new hope, but by her needing Luke to fulfill her destiny, it will give Luke the opportunity to "makes things right".
     
  16. Jadore4

    Jadore4 Rebel Trooper

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    I think there's something to this, although I'm not sure I'd use the word "redemption" for Luke's arc.

    My (fairly vague) theory is that someone other the Kylo Ren (probably orchestrated by Snoke) the other Jedi students, and both Ren & Luke blame Luke for what happened. For Ren, it was something to the effect of "what good is the light side if it allows this sort of tragedy." I feel like this sort of aligns with part of what led Vader to the dark side. Didn't Anakin say something about wanting to rule the galaxy with Padme at his side as they saw best fit and therefore make the galaxy a better place?

    The guilt of the padawan slaughter then the subsequent event of Ben being seduced by the dark side probably drove Luke to he Jedi Temple for answers on how to better serve the Force. All that Journal of Whills stuff in the prologue of the novelization implies something of a Jedi journey for Luke to "resolve the gray" to make things right.
     
  17. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Yeah and so did Han Solo know...if Luke Skywalker went into hiding, then so did Han Solo and Leia .
     
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  18. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Redemption probably is too strong, but you get what I mean. Don't forget Kylo's line "I will finish what you started". I think Kylo wants the same thing Snoke does, no JEDI. He views them as weak, unnecessary and a thorn in their side. The only thing that can stop them.

    Based on what we have seen of Kylo/Ben, I think he wanted more power and that wasn't what Luke was teaching. He was probably an angry kid because his parents weren't there for him the way he wanted, so he used his powers and did some bad things. That's when Snoke started whispering in his ear.

    I don't think Kylo himself cut down a bunch of Jedi students, but I think he's responsible in some way for Luke not being there during the attack.
     
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  19. Chowdahead

    Chowdahead Rebel General

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    its against lukes character to not do what he can to prevent the deaths of millions, regardless of who's behind the sword. to say luke wouldnt kill Ben regardless of his atrocities is ignorant, regardless of his relation. .yes, he showed insane compassion for his father. But you mean to tell me that Luke, blinded by his closeness to the situation would allow Ben's actions to continue because Luke is his uncle? This may be the exact route the story group is taking with the Sequel Trilogy, but it would definitely diminish Luke's character. Luke's compassion is his greatest strength, not his greatest weakness. There must be a better reason for Luke not going after Kylo and the FO other than "Luke wouldnt kill Ben because he wouldnt kill Vader". It would demonstrate that his compassion is no longer his strength but his weakness, as we've all seen what Kylo and the FO have been up to since Luke's disappearance. This may be the route they go, and that would be unfortunate, but not surprising by any means.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 16, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 16, 2016 ---
    exactly. well said. It's hard for me to believe people actually consider this a plausible reason for why Luke left. ridiculous.
     
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  20. ArynCrinn

    ArynCrinn 1030th Lieutenant (Jr Mod)

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    Snoke is a powerful Dark Side figure. He's been around since before the rise of the Galactic Empire.
    If he hadn't been hiding in the shadows, both the Jedi AND Palpatine would have discovered him.
    Snoke has waited for a long time to make himself known to the galaxy, and even then he's still in the shadows, communicating to only 2 people via hologram from a mobile command ship/station.

    Not necessarily. The film doesn't provide a whole lot of context, but the novel does:

    Han never knew Snoke was the one involved until this time.
    Leia didn't even know it was Snoke until it had become too late.
    Why would Luke know any better than they did?
    Snoke was influencing Ben long before he was sent away to train with Luke.

    If Luke had known Snoke was manipulating Ben, don't you think he would have done something about it?


    Nope. That's not what I'm saying at all. Chasing Ben across the galaxy to stop him from destroying anything else, would not save the galaxy from Snoke.
    Snoke was still going to build a system-destroying superweapon, with or without Ben.

    Luke is older and wiser now. He knows he is not powerful enough to destroy Snoke on his own. Now it is his turn to be patient and wait for the opportunity to present itself. That opportunity is found in Rey.


    But that doesn't mean he gave up. If Luke gave up on Ben, then he has become weak and has learned nothing from his experience with his father.
    Luke's compassion is his greatest strength. Take that away, and he is no longer Luke Skywalker.


    The point of Revenge of the Sith is that the Jedi failed to help Anakin. They failed the galaxy by not realising that Palpatine was behind everything and walking right into his trap.

    Palpatine would not have had a harder time if Obi-Wan had killed Vader.. Had Vader died, he would have found another apprentice to replace him, just as he did with Maul and Dooku before him. Do you think Luke would have stood a chance against another, unmaimed apprentice with 20 years of training?

    It was the will of the Force that Vader survive then.
    It is the will of the Force that Ben survive now.
    The wide chasm that separates when Rey defeats him makes that fact blatantly clear.

    Then how did Luke find it? And how did Lor San Tekka to find the portion of the navigational chart it?

    Why would there be a rumour that he went searching for it?
    If Luke did not want to be found, know one would even know what to look for.


    Exactly. He's not. Neither is he someone who just goes around deciding someone deserves to die, regardless of what they've done.
    So, if Luke wouldn't kill Ben out of revenge, or because of compassion, he wouldn't kill Ben at all.
    It's as simple as that.


    Certainly not.

    Also, Ben didn't help blow up the entire Republic (it was only the senate and the fleet). That was all Hux's plan, with Snoke's approval. Hux is more of a monster than Ben is.
    Ben was intently focused on finding Luke, which is why he was on Jakku in the beginning of the film, why he was heading off to Takodana to find BB-8 when the Starkiller weapon was fired, and why he was trying to interrogate Rey at the end. Like his grandfather before him, Ben doesn't care about the political state of the galaxy. I imagine that Ben would share Vader's sentiment that "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."
    He's not interested in killing billions of innocent people.


    Not if you've read the novel (section quoted above).
    The novel makes it sound like Snoke was whispering in his ear from infancy.


    Agreed.
    There's no way I could ever believe that Luke was there when this happened.



    On the contrary, it would entirely diminish Luke's character if he did pursue Ben across the galaxy to kill him.
    That's just not who Luke is. There is no precedent for Luke deciding to hunt someone across the galaxy. Luke did his part in helping the Rebellion in their struggle against the Empire, but Luke is not a judge and executioner. He doesn't just decide that someone is worthy of death (especially someone who is not responsible for the deaths of millions), and then go exact his justice on them. He's certainly not part of a pre-crime unit either.

    That kind of behaviour would not only make him a bad person, but it would make him a bad hero.
    Dumbledore could have told Harry to go and kill Voldemort, but that would have made them bad heroes.
    Gandalf could have told Frodo and Sam to kill Gollum, but that would have made them bad heroes.
    The best heroes and mentor's are those who empower others to make the right choices become better.

    Not killing Ben is the right thing do, no matter how difficult that may be.


    Yeah... they've been up to so much prior to TFA.
    The First Order has been quietly operating within the confines of a peace treaty to build a planetary superweapon in total secrecy, while Ben has been running around the galaxy searching for Luke Skywalker.

    Luke better go stop Ben from looking for him. We can't have Ben find Luke before Luke finds him now can we.


    Seriously people. Let go of this idea that Ben Solo is some mass-murdering psychopath.
    Who has Ben killed that we know of? Maybe some other Jedi students, maybe his aunt... the "Clan Leader" and his group. Lor San Tekka and the people in Tuanul... and now Han Solo? Certainly not the millions or billions people keep going on about.
     
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