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Luke never told Vader who really trained him.

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by junderwood13, Sep 12, 2014.

  1. junderwood13

    junderwood13 Rebelscum

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    I found it interesting that Vader always assumed that Luke was trained by Obi-wan. Though Obi-wan had a small part in Luke's training, Yoda was the Jedi Master that taught Luke. When Darth Vader says, "Obi-wan has taught you well", I always wondered what Vader's reaction would have been if Luke had said, "No, no...Yoda is my master."
     
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  2. Shawshank

    Shawshank Rebel General

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    It's kind of another example of George's bizarre lack of focus on some things.

    I understand that Yoda hid there because he could hide his presence in the Force....but how does he never get brought up by Vader or Sidious? We certainly know that Sidious knew he survived. And Vader can't seriously be foolish enough to assume that the progression in Luke's skills came solely due to his own practice (because remember, Vader knows nothing about Force Ghosts.)

    It's just another in a long line of "Really George? I appreciate the way you tried to explain yourself out of this but damn..."
     
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  3. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    Well, he was probably just putting two and two together. He saw Luke adn Obi-Wan together on the Death Star. After Obi-Wans cryptic "if you strike me down" surrender he hears Luke scream (obviously "NOOOO!") and turns and see him firing a blaster at him before Artoo seals the blast doors. He might have even noticed his own lightsaber dangling from Luke's belt. So he knows Obi-wan was with Luke and has no idea for how long. He might believe Obi-wan raised Luke. I don't think its that big a stretch and I never though anything of it other than Vader really doesn't know and was making assumptions.

    Also, in the novelization of Jedi, Yoda is mentioned in the final saber battle in some way, though I can't remember exactly how.
     
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  4. TheFettMan

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    Ben/Obi-Wan was known to Luke prior to the events of A New Hope(EP 04). It's not really clear what Ben may have taught or showed him other than what is deplicted in Star Wars. A few light-saber classes & some pep talks isn't really Jedi training.
    I think Vader(or Anakin) may have sensed the bond between Luke & Obi-wan. This emotion made him mad because he couldn't spend any time with Luke or raise him as a son.
    An "oh George" moment or story-line flaw could be how Darth Vader in A New Hope doesn't connect with Leia or seem to have any clear feelings or emotions for her.
    This is flawed on several levels mainly because taken & trained Leia in the dark side. She could have been a back-up if Luke was killed or if Vader later needed both Luke & Leia to remove Palpatine from power.
    When Yoda says to Obi-Wan; "there is another", it seems convoluted but really he means; Leia.
    Obi-Wan/Ben may have shielded Leia or avoided bringing her into the Jedi stuff for her own safety but after everything that went down, even he should have been more pro-active & reached out to her too.
     
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    How was Vader supposed to know that Luke was talking to Yoda. I agree with that he probably assumed obi wan was training him for longer then he actually did. As for Obi Wan teaching Luke before episode iv, it seems unlikely because he explains to Luke what the force is in ANH lol. What I think is crazy is how powerful Luke is with such little training.
     
  6. TheFettMan

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    That's a good point but Luke may have just been "strong with the force" or jacked up on mitaclorinens. Lol.
    What is also "really George" is how in just six short months Luke goes all Kung Fu Panda & starts wearing all black(like you know who ;) ) . He's gets mystic & spiritual too. That seems unrealistic even for a film.
     
  7. Rebo

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    I'm not so sure Vader doesn't know about force ghosts. Annakin knows there is a way to extend life through the force. It is why he turned to the dark side. Obi-Wan says to him "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine". Then Vader strikes him down, and the guy up and disappears (something Jedi did not do in Annakin's time).

    Vader's a smart guy, he could put two and two together I think. He may have even sensed Obi-Wan a bit during the Battle of Yavin. I've always had an inkling that he night have,.
     
  8. HansOle

    HansOle Rebel Commander

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    it's amnesia or just the fact that the green bugger is about 900 years and the 2 darths don't possible see him due to age to be any danger.
    or maybe it's just because the way the story was told (you know no masterplan)
     
  9. TheFettMan

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    About 3 months ago I spoke to a young woman who was a big Star Wars fan.
    She brought up the point that Luke goes from white(A New Hope) to grey(TESB) to black(ROTJ).
    Lucas considered having Luke "turn" at the end of ROTJ & over-take both Vader & Emperior Palpatine but he thought it would be too much for the audience, ending on a dark turn(but setting up future Star Wars films later).
     
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  10. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    The "Oh, George..." moments came later on as he began to play progressively faster and looser with what had already been established in his earlier films.

    The problem was, he didn't realize how truly lucky he got with his decision to change the story and to make Darth Vader Luke's father. Not only did he get away with it, but audiences loved it. Unfortunately, Lucas seems to have subsequently taken that as license to throw continuity to the wind whenever he felt like it. Whereas Vader being revealed as Luke's father was arguably a cinematic stroke of genius, Leia being revealed as Luke's sister after two movies of him pining over her (and after that kiss in ESB!) came across at best as a rather forced plot twist, and at worst as being more than just a little bit creepy.

    And then there was Obi Wan's "certain point of view" speech - which was completely unnecessary, given the fact that Yoda had just given the far more reasonable explanation that Luke wasn't told the truth about his father because he wasn't yet ready for the burden of knowing that his father wasn't a hero, but the scourge of the galaxy. I've always felt that the "certain point of view" bit was partly intended as a "get out of jail free" card for Lucas in case he wanted to mess with established continuity again - which, of course, he did repeatedly in the PT.

    That's really where all of these "Oh, George..." moments come from. He would either pay only cursory attention to maintaining continuity with established material from his earlier films (or, oftentimes, would just flat-out ignore continuity altogether) and then when the audience goes back and watches the earlier films they don't really fit with the more recent ones that well. Yes, one can play "trial lawyer" and split hairs and come up with all manner of convoluted explanations as to why they can be viewed as fitting together, but y'know... in the end, a jump cut is still a jump cut and a continuity bungle is still a continuity bungle. If it's distracting onscreen, then it's a problem.

    I just hope that JJ and company are going out of their way to avoid "certain point of view" continuity problems in Episode 7. It's about flippin' time, innit? ;)
     
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  11. Shawshank

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    I think it may be difficult to not have a few awkward continuity issues simply because of all the many complicated webs Licas wove.
     
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  12. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Not if the writer who's weaving those webs is truly paying attention and actually values continuity.

    Now, the whole Leia/sister thing, sloppy and vaguely creepy as it was, can be understood as Lucas just wanting to get the Star Wars trilogy done and put to bed once and for all. ROTJ was when he took the extended, multi-film story arc that he and Kurtz and company had been working on and truncated it down to one final movie that tied everything up. As of 1981-82, Lucas was burnt out on Star Wars and didn't want to do this big long series of movies that they'd been planning. They had to answer the question "Who is the 'other'?" that had been raised in ESB, and Leia was the most convenient way of tying that up. That, I can understand even though I have always felt like it was kind of a cheap out that didn't really fit all that well.

    The prequels were another matter altogether.

    God love ol' George, but he has never really been much of a writer - mainly because he doesn't love writing. It's not that he's a terrible writer (though he's said almost as much of himself before) but it's just not what he's into. He doesn't relish the process, doesn't get off on finding just the right turn of phrase or just the right plot development, all of those things that great writers live and breathe.

    For George Lucas, screenwriting seems like it's always been something that he's just gotten through the best he can because it has to get done. Kinda like taking out the trash. Not that I blame him, mind you. As much as I personally do love writing, I also know that if you are a creative person and you're forced to do something that you're not particularly jazzed about, you're not necessarily going to do it all that well. George isn't all that crazy about writing, and so it becomes a chore to deal with so that he can get back to the creative things that he DOES love.

    So when he sat down to write the prequels, I'd bet money that he wasn't relishing the opportunity to dig into all of the little backstory elements from the OT and to figure out how to build them into a cohesive and compelling overall prequel story. Instead, he sort of treated it as though he were just writing sequels that happened to occur prior to the existing stories.

    Yoda was Obi Wan's mentor? Nahhhh... let's make this new guy be Obi Wan's mentor, and Yoda was just Obi Wan's kindergarten teacher.

    Obi Wan found Anakin, was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him, and therefore took it upon himself to train Anakin as a Jedi? Nahhhhh... let's give that over to this new guy and make Obi Wan a reluctant participant in the whole thing.

    Anakin and Owen Lars disagreed over their responsibilities, and Owen thought that Anakin should have stayed there with them on Tatooine and not gotten involved? Nahhhhh... let's not even bother having them know one another except for about half a day long after Anakin had already left Tatooine and "gotten involved."

    To me, the established backstory elements from the OT aren't something to just be discarded in favor of something else. Were I going to write a Star Wars prequel trilogy, I'd see even the most minor little backstory details as fuel to drive the creative process. Obi Wan was reckless when Yoda taught him? Cool! What can we build off of that? Owen was ticked off that Anakin followed Obi Wan on "some damned fool idealistic crusade"? THAT will be fun to delve more deeply into!

    Continuity problems aren't inevitable. They're just an indication that not enough care has been taken in the writing process.
     
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  13. Shawshank

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    I think that's what I was getting at though. The inconsistencies between the two trilogies may cause some difficult decisions for the ST.

    I don't doubt they're going to make a phenomenal film though.
     
  14. DEKKA129

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    Ah! My bad. I see what you meant now.

    Yeah, I imagine there probably will be some areas where they have to punt a bit, especially if they reference a lot of the PT backstory. But really, the PT is quite a long time in the past by the time of the ST, and I'm not sure how much they'll really reference what went on back then. JJ and company may be able to avoid having to deal with a lot of the worst of the OT/PT continuity issues.

    I do think they'll make a really fun movie, regardless. :D
     
  15. Darth Pimp

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    Dekka, I feel where you're coming from on all of this (GREAT POST), but has anyone ever considered that George may have simply been trying to demonstrate that memories and perceptions of events can and do change over extended periods of time- even for Jedi?

    When I watched TPM the first several times and then the following prequels, I really felt that I had gotten the gist of what Lucas was trying to do...in tying the trilogies together. Actually, I thought it was semi-brilliant...if ever there were truly such a notion. Obi-wan was the quintessential Jedi at one point in time that he completely understood why the Council didn't want to have anything to do with a young Anakin. Then, after a moment of intense combat with a presence that the Jedi didn't see coming- which, subsequently resulted in the death of his master and confidante (-whom, BTW, he didn't always agree with- nor always respect properly, but nonetheless grew to admire and even love), Qui-gon basically arm-twisted him to train the kid, while dying in his arms. Think about this for a second. Real life humans in similarly analogous situations experience this kind of thing as well- when dealing with or facing a life-altering moment between themselves and a "loved one". Couple this with the fact that Obi-wan was, indeed, still young and brash at the time of this event, and you start to see how and why the Anakin situation starts off in turmoil. Anakin's ears overheard Obi-wan telling Qui-gon that he was a dangerous prospect, and I'm sure that Anakin never forgot about that. Qui-gon admitted to Anakin that the Council was against him being trained, and I'm sure Anakin never forgot about that either, whereas, Palpatine introduced himself as "the homie" from the get-go.

    It seems to me that George was trying his best to exercise a few liberties with the idea of humanistic memories and perception. Yoda and Obi-wan, in their heart-of-hearts, always knew that Anakin shouldn't have been trained. Yoda's memories of the situation were possibly along the lines of having his back being against the wall (regarding the Council's final position on the matter), while Obi-wan's memory was probably along the lines of guilt and misguided initiative. Telling an unsuspecting Luke the whole truth at such a young age and vulnerable time in his life, they felt, was probably not the best idea. Keep in mind that they realized that the Order, as well as the Republic, had been undone by lies and deceptions by the Sith (Palpatine). I think it's entirely possible that they felt that they, in turn, would have to do something similar, using the tools that they had at their disposal (Luke, Leia, et al.), in order to have a chance at restoring balance and order to the galaxy.

    In my mind, the only thing to debate about is whether or not George told the story like this on purpose or by lucky accident.
     
    #15 Darth Pimp, Sep 18, 2014
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  16. DEKKA129

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    Given the fact that, up until the last draft or so of TPM, Obi Wan was going to be the one to venture out into Mos Espa and discover Anakin, I don't think there was any sort of thought given to setting up a story about Obi Wan having selective memory in his old age. George just decided at the last minute that he wanted Qui Gon to be the one to find and believe in Anakin rather than Obi Wan, and apparently just hoped we wouldn't notice.

    And while I absolutely understand what you're getting at about why George changed Obi Wan's character, it was actually unnecessary to make Obi Wan "the bad guy" in Anakin's eyes in order to justify Anakin's eventual turn to the dark side. IMHO, what was sorely overlooked in Anakin's PT character was Darth Vader's strong motivation in the OT to "bring order to the galaxy." Start that off as in PT Anakin as a gradually more obsessive drive to ensure that justice is brought to somebody who has wronged (or killed) somebody he cares about, and you have a perfect "end justifies the means" motivation for him to turn to the dark side when he ultimately becomes convinced that the dark side is the only way to defeat his nemesis. At that point, Obi Wan and the Jedi become impediments to Anakin getting what he wants, merely by their dedication to the good side of the Force. There's no need to portray them as being opposed to Anakin being trained as a Jedi, and actually it becomes an even more emotional thing when Anakin turns if Obi Wan and the Jedi have always been a supportive "family" to him. Especially since Anakin ends up killing them all (or at least overseeing their murders.)

    I just don't think it's ever a good idea to ignore continuity to the extent that Lucas did. The far stronger story almost always comes out of adherence to and building upon what's already been established. "This character just lied, is all" or "That character just got old and started remembering things differently" can certainly be used to try to justify bad continuity after the fact, but it doesn't change the fact that there are noticeable continuity problems being justified in the first place. IMHO, better to just maintain continuity and build off of that.
     
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  17. Darth Pimp

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    Don't get me wrong...I'm not exactly what some would define as a consummate PT-apologist, and, as I mentioned in another thread, I don't like that an 8 year old Anakin was presented to us at all lol. I would've much preferred for him to have been introduced as a teenager already in the Order. With all of that said....

    Personally, I have no problem with this... I actually think it's a clever twist on our expectations.

    Ahh... but was Obi-wan ever REALLY the 'bad guy' in Anakin's eyes??? Sure, he seemingly bitched and moaned about him a little in AOTC, but that was in a moment where a teenager was simply venting his frustration at previously looking like a jackass in front of the girl/woman that he has the hots for and is trying to impress/manipulate. Anakin knows right from wrong, and he knows Obi-wan isn't a "bad guy". In ROTS, even Palpatine expresses consideration of Anakin and Obi-wan's bond- '...Every Jedi is now an enemy of the Republic- including your friend, Obi-wan Kenobi...' because he knows that Obi-wan is the only other person of influence that could possibly talk some sense into Anakin. When Anakin states to Obi-wan that in his view '...the Jedi are evil..' and, later says to him '...I HATE you...', he's not being honest or genuine about those beliefs, and even Obi-wan knows it. Anakin is merely dealing with the fact that he allowed himself to be duped in the worse way possible- for all the wrong reasons, and that there's no turning back now. He's trying to justify his own bantha poodoo while being pissed off at himself, and I thought that this was what Lucas was actually trying to convey.

    Again, this is an older Anakin that's trying to manipulate an adversary of personal interest, while STILL trying to justify his own bantha poodoo. In AOTC, when he and Padme are exchanging views on how the Galactic governance should be conducted, he's primarily just teasing Padme to get a reaction from her because he knows where she stands on the matter and why. However, I also believe that George used this bit of dialogue to establish that Anakin has the potential to be brutish and even a demagogue, however, I don't believe it was intended to display that Anakin actually wants to have the galaxy in his grasp so that he can "bring order" to it. At this point in the story, the main things bugging him are his estranged relationship with his mother, and, possibly his disdain for the idea of slavery itself.

    GL, instead, opted to make the notion of "Helplessness" (the fear of not being able to stop Padme's death) be Anakin's nemesis. Anyone could argue that George could've used a seemingly less contrived plot device in protraying Anakin's downfall, but, again, this was unexpected, and, actually a bit deep when you consider the potency of sublety that can affect any person's sense of rationale and decision-making process. This, to me, was a classic case of "Decent idea, Poor delivery" lol.

    But, the thing is, all the audience ever got from the OT is the same thing Luke received in the OT- scant information. Because of this, Luke made certain assumptions and ran with them (and subsequently lost a hand due to it), and we, the audience, did the same thing. This is where Lucas decided to take some liberties (and risks) in fleshing out the back-story in the PT. I just feel that he knew that he was working with a legitimately large palette- not too dissimilar to the upcoming ST- in terms of exactly what story to tell. People may not agree with how GL chose to tell the PT story, but, to me, the fact is that he had plenty of flexibility to exercise within the overall telling of the story- and he KNEW it. Now...you might feel that I'm giving Lucas too much credit as a story-teller lol, and that's fine, but the man is friends with, and has worked with some of the brightest writers in the biz. He had a LOT of time to absorb some story-telling techniques between the OT and the PT that his effort may have just ended up being a somewhat flawed attempt at portraying depth and complexity in a story that simply didn't carry the expectation for it to be there.
     
    #17 Darth Pimp, Sep 18, 2014
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  18. DEKKA129

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    You raise some great points. However, I'm still of the opinion that simply because the audience only had bits and pieces of backstory info from the OT doesn't mean that those bits and pieces should have been tossed out the window in the PT just because Lucas decided he wanted to change his story.

    Having Qui Gon find Anakin and decide to train him rather than Obi Wan isn't just a clever twist on expectations, it's an outright abandonment of a key bit of backstory that was very clearly presented in ROTJ.

    Having Anakin become Darth Vader simply because he loved his wife too much is more along the lines of a clever twist on expectations, but unfortunately it really doesn't fit that well with the Darth Vader character from the OT, nor does it really work as a justification for Anakin suddenly murdering every man, woman and child in the Jedi Temple. I understand that we're supposed to view Anakin's sense of hopelessness as his motivation, but it's an incredibly weak motivation when the almost immediate end result is supposed to be a man consumed by his lust for power. Never once do we get any real sense that Anakin is drunk on his own power. He's running around murdering everyone because he's afraid of losing his wife, and afraid of Palpatine. That just doesn't lead us to that "TOP OF THE WORLD, MA!!!" moment where Anakin is reveling in his own power even as he falls into darkness.

    Lucas knows a lot of great screenwriters. I know a lot of great guitarists. Knowing them doesn't make us into them. (But boy, I sure wish it did!)
     
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  19. Darth Pimp

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    Dekka, I totally get that you're taking the subjective route here, but that's just it, the Subjective route, and of course that's fine. My approach to the PT has always been to be as objective as possible, if, for no other reason, we, the audience, only had bits and pieces of back-story info (along with some, translucent at best, conjecture) to go by from the OT.

    Well, it's his story to tell- his way. Just because the observer expects or even desires for it play out a certain way- based on their own perceptions of what was previously presented, doesn't automatically justify (in this case, particularly) that the story didn't end up playing out correctly.

    With all due respect, but, so what. The fact is: Obi-wan DID end up training Anakin, regardless as to how it came about.

    I don't know which "ROTS" you've seen, but the one I'm familiar with shows Anakin becoming quite power hungry in the latter segment of the movie. He mentions to Padme' that he can "destroy Palpatine" and that they could "rule the Galaxy...to make things the way want them to be". He mentions his "new Empire" to Obi-wan right before their duel, and then later in the duel he warns Obi-wan not to "underestimate his power". Even in the OT, Yoda told Luke that the Dark Side was the "busier, more seductive" of the two sides of the Force. You see what happened when Luke touched the Dark Side when dueling Vader- he lets him have it! My point is: the Dark Side of the Force is damn near irresistible, especially when touched by someone of immense passion and sensitivity like Anakin. Palpatine knew this, and, Anakin did too (Tusken massacre). Why does this matter to what I'm saying? It's because Anakin did INDEED revel in the immense power that he felt when using the Dark Side because it hyper-augmented his already preternatural abilities. I DON'T believe Anakin's natural inclination was to ever be a power-hungry, dictatorial ruler, but once faced with the prospect that he could actually use his abilities to alter realities and change fates, he allowed himself to go off of the deep end in that attempt. Again, this what GL decided to emphasize more on, as opposed to your suggestions of what would've been a more plausible/compelling/believable/acceptable scenario of Vader's ascension, although your perspective is certainly good.

    Tsk tsk ha-ha. I didn't say that his associations made him "brilliant" by default. I merely suggested that they more than likely had an influence on his mental approach to crafting the story, flaws withstanding.
     
  20. TheFettMan

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    The events of the OT(EP 04-06) are NOT that long between the PT(EP 01-03). It's only approx 18-20 years(Earth Years too :) ).
    If GL & crew started up with the PT they knew die-hard fans & film scholars would rip them to shreds if they did a half a&@ job. The story lines & characters would need to match up.
    Is it seemless? No. Are there flaws? Yes.
    But there's nothing dire or critical.
     
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