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Luke's Lagacy: The Jedi Order Revolutionized or Resurrected?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Empire Jo, Feb 15, 2016.

?

ST and beyond, will the Jedi Order be revolutionized or resurrected?

  1. Revolutionized

  2. Ressurected

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    There is a certain symmetry to Luke giving rise to both of the next generation dark and light side orders that definitely appeals to me. He is the axis upon which the fate of the galaxy will turn.

    Let's for the sake of the exercise assume your theory is true. The revolution has already occurred, and now we have the Jedi renegades of the Kights of Ren. Will Luke successfully ressurect the Order of the Jedi from the ashes of destruction? Even if he does, will Luke's legacy then be an unending conflict between light and dark akin to the Sith/Jedi conflict of millenia? Leaving the galaxy in the crossfire?
     
  2. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I watched that episode of Rebels last night where Yoda (who looked really weird by the way) says that the Jedi were arrogant and consumed by the Dark Side...suggesting that they shouldn't have gotten involved in the wars.

    Now, clearly a lot of that is true. It lead to their destruction after all. But I always struggle to come up with an alternative. I mean, the Jedi's ability to use the Force was diminished as the Dark Side grew. It wasn't their fault that they couldn't detect the Sith or indeed what they were up to. It seemed to them that the Sith were just behind the separatist movement. And the separatists were the real war mongers. What could the Jedi do? Sit back and do nothing whilst the Sith attacked? Had they done that then the Republic would've fallen to the Sith anyway.

    I think it is true that the Jedi had become arrogant somewhat. They hadn't been challenged for a thousand years so that is understandable. I think this prevented them from dealing with Anakin differently - which they needed to do. They were kind of dismissive of Anakin and when they needed to be less rigid with the rule and were arrogant in their own abilities they should've adapted and looked to help Anakin more - helping him do what he was destined to do. That isn't exonerating Anakin's actions by the way, just showing where the Jedi failed.

    As for the consumed by the Dark Side comment, I don't think that suggests the Jedi were using the Dark Side, just that they were caught up in the tide. After all, the Jedi do have to fight. I know the Sith ended up destroying themselves in a way, but Vader had kind of returned to the light and killed Sidious himself (as a Jedi from a certain POV). I also think that being a pacifist in the face of true evil is immoral in itself. Look, Jedi have lightsabers for a reason. They do need to fight. I just think they got caught up in the Sith's plan and this destroyed them of course - but it is entirely understandable how that happened.

    I just worry that these new cartoons are muddying the story somewhat to try and get more flesh off the bones. Yes, the PT had the not everything is black and white theme, but the Jedi really are the good guys. And I think if you start confusing the actions of the people trying to bring peace, justice and harmony to the galaxy with those that are selfish and truly doing evil then as a moral guide for young kids, it's not at all clear.
     
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  3. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Ok, try not to raise your hackles too much as I play devil’s advocate for the sake of examining the argument.

    Yes, the Jedi’s ability to use the Force in the PT was diminished as the Dark side of the Force grew, I just disagree that it’s growth was due to the actions of the Sith alone. The actions of the Jedi were partly responsible for the growth in the Dark side, and that should be acknowledged and owned. The Jedi were arrogant, aggressive and more interested in serving a corrupt Senate than the Light side of the Force. There were so many examples of things they could have handled differently, including;
    • The way they dismissed Qui Gon’s deep connection to the Force and personal strength of character, and labelled it as defiance.
    • Anakin (no need to elaborate on that one)
    • They stopped using their Jedi arts for defence, and got a little kill happy on the whole ‘he’s too dangerous to live’ precept. It’s one thing to deliver a killing blow as a means of defence, another to kill a defeated opponent due to their percieved danger, regardless , for example, of how much control they may have had of the courts
    • Becoming Generals and aggressors in TCW, allowing themselves to be seem as aggressive and dangerous, which if nothing else made the public relations behind Order 66 more plausible.
    • They helped enforce the regime of a self interested, corrupt Senate that had no real interest in improving life for all in the galaxy, especially those in the outer rim.

    To take your argument of it being immoral to be a pacifist in the face of true evil, why then didn’t the PT Jedi overthrow the corrupt Senate, and rule themselves? At least temporarily until the system was improved a bit? Sideous may have had a point on that one then...
    So I’m not saying the Jedi used the Dark side as such, more that their actions dimmed the Light.
    Of course the Jedi are the good guys, and have honourable intentions. That’s indisputable. However, do you justify evil actions because they were committed with good intent? The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say...
    Alternatively, do you condemn good actions because they were committed with selfish, or evil intent? I have a sneaking suspicion, though I could be wrong, that Rebels may touch upon this in the future, if the rumours about Maul hooking up with our heroes proves to be true... stay tuned...
    I am all for helping kids to be decent humans, and shows like Rebels and SW are great for that. However, it’s too easy to say ‘we denounce evil and uphold the good’ without giving a guide on how to determine what is good and what is evil. Concepts that are so subjective to a point of view. Morality has the danger of acting in line with the views of the crowd, or an arbitrary line in a special book. Rather, lets show kids that things are not always black and white, so a critical analysis of intention, action and consequence is required to have a ‘well informed conscience’. And that’s actually quite a hard thing to do and requires a depth of honesty that does not always come naturally to humans who are so prone to bias, so I get why it’s easier to be moral, rather than ethical. Grey areas are hard, so we must resolve they grey through refined sight, to paraphrase the Journal of the Whills :)

    On a lighter note, when has Yoda ever not been weird, lol? Isn't that why we love him . :p
     
  4. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I'd agree that they looked to the cosmic Force rather than the living Force too much. This meant that when the Sith took over/emerged, they were more easily blinded.

    M'kay.

    This is a tough one. Yes, there were times they were a bit saber happy to an extent. But I think it's tough on Mace to call what he did wrong. He saw Sidious' power. He knew what was at stake. I think I lean more towards Mace being right to try and take him out. However, the elephant in the room was Anakin. Had Mace had more of a rapport with Anakin, seen his conflict and actually tried to speak with him rather than be so rigid and authoritarian, then he might've been able tor reason with him and get his help. Grey area here though IMO.

    Again though - what if they did nothing? They'd be branded as traitors anyway for not helping the Republic.

    They did indeed lose touch with the people and were too closely knitted to a corrupting Republic. On the other hand, they couldn't involve themselves politically so it's not like they could just fix anything themselves in that respect. And again, even if they did - when it comes to it and the Sith attack the Republic would the Jedi not have to help defend it anyway?

    Because there was still democracy. But when it seemed that the Republic was almost lost, the Jedi were prepared to step in and make the difficult choice.

    I take your point.

    Depends on the knock on effect. If these good actions give power to a person who will later commit evil, then yes one should condemn that. This is essentially what Palpatine did - acted as the good Chancellor but was really the evil Sith. I think there are a lot of grey areas but there are also some moral absolutes. The difference with the Jedi and the Sith is that the Jedi only ever act for the greater good. The problem was that the Jedi couldn't actually see what the greater good was. They were too blinded as was their reliance upon the cosmic Force. Had they perhaps been more attuned to the living Force they might've see their impact. So I do agree with you on that but I think it was a small error on the part of the Jedi that became a massive problem due to Sith exploitation.

    Nicely said and I fully agree. I don't mean to put forward a simple idea here for stupid kids to understand. But I mean to draw attention to the moral code at the centre of Star Wars - the Dark Side is evil and the light side is good. Yoda tells us that we will know the good from the bad when we are calm, at peace - passive. And I think that remains true throughout. Obviously the Jedi got caught up in the Sith's plan and they appeared not to have the time to stop and think. Be calm. Peaceful. Passive. My point is that this is understandable as the Sith needed to be stopped. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But yes, the Jedi should've acted differently but let's not make them out to be as bad as the Sith. Let's not suggest their order was to blame as much as the Sith (I know you're not saying that).
     
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  5. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    Were did TFA give any info related to the Church of the Force?
     
  6. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Lor San Tekka was a member of the COTF, as referenced in the back story of LST in the visual dictionary. Granted, the movie wasn't specific in any references.
     
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  7. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Why does the Jedi Order have to exist?





    Yoda make the same mistake, later on in the film. And unlike Mace, he didn't even consider arresting Palpatine. Yet, not only are you solely criticizing Mace, you're also solely criticizing him for failing to form a rapport with Anakin. Even Yoda and most of the Jedi Council are guilty of this. Why blame only Mace?

    I never understood the Star Wars fandom's hangups over Mace Windu. It seems as if many fans love to use him as a scapegoat for the Jedi's mistakes and flaws. And I find this frustrating and annoying.
     
    #27 CTrent29, Jul 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2016
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  8. Darth Qaidous

    Darth Qaidous Rebel Official

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    I think we realized other such Force groups existed, we just weren't exposed to any specific "canon" group in the films. In fact parts of the post-RotJ "Legends" material have several different "new" Force using groups and I was a big fan of the idea of most of those groups (the Baron Do sages, etc.)

    I don't think Snoke is so interested in adapting elements of the light into his own philosophy. Whatever that may be, I think it's 100% dark, just not Sith.

    I hope Luke's legacy is beginning a new Jedi Order, in whatever form that Jedi Order may come in. In my mind Luke being the one to restart the Jedi Order has a certain poetry about it seeing as how his father was the one to destroy the old Order. We'll see if TPTB allow him another chance to start a new Order (and I don't mean by training one Jedi), or kill him off in this trilogy.

    Whatever shape the new Jedi Order takes I believe it will be different from the Jedi Order of the Old Republic. There has been great insight from posters in this thread about this and other topics. While I don't think the order should be beholden to any galactic government (ala the dynamic between the Old Republic and the old Jedi Order), I do think the order would undoubtedly support and assist any government which espoused the ideals of freedom and democracy.

    So there would be a resurrection of the Jedi as an order, but a revolution/revision of the structure, philosophy, and ideals of the order. Some of the traditions and wisdom of the old Order remain relevant, but as the seven films of the saga have shown us there were many more deficiencies which Luke has a chance to correct. As with anything there are multiple levels and various nuances where balances need to be maintained as it pertains to the Jedi themselves and their role in the galaxy.

    As a balance against any group that would try to dominate the galaxy or systems by force and who would try to subvert democracy.

    For my part I don't think "arresting" Palpatine was ever a realistic option. His power had swayed the minds of the Senate, the Courts, and Anakin, and had them drinking his "Kool-Aid". So I don't blame Mace or Yoda solely, the entire Order shares blame. The point about anyone (beyond Obi-Wan) in the Jedi Order not trying to understand Anakin is valid. Part of it is the Jedi Order's hubris, but also it shows us just how powerful Darth Sidious was to keep them blind. Anakin and all Jedi are only "human", so to speak, so the Jedi/the Order should have taken that into account, no one is a robot, yet they proceeded as if that was the case and that cost them dearly.
     
    #28 Darth Qaidous, Jul 7, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
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  9. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    I think at this point "The Jedi Order" as shown in the Prequels is extinct. The way Luke was trained solidified the fact that at this point in the game it doesn't matter how someone is trained to be a Jedi, just that they are embracing the basic concepts of using the light side of the force and using the force the way a Jedi would. To bring peace/balance and justice when some other force is disrupting or corrupting peace in the galaxy. The whole Lifestyle and rules of being a Jedi in the PT era order really have no reason to be carried over. The galaxy just NEEDS Jedi. I'm not saying the way Jedi's lived should be or will be completely ignored but it's kind of like the evolution of society in the real world. Societies and religions evolve. We have yet to see how Luke's Jedi academy operated but just the existence of it backs up what I'm saying. Luke took on a group of students instead of just one student like the Jedi Order previously did because he kind of had to. The situation called for it thus the way the new Jedi were being formed evolved. Luke must have had his reasons maybe even visions for why a group of Jedi would be needed ASAP vs. himself and just one student.
     
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