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SPECULATION Luke's Reformation of the Jedi Will Draw Inspiration From The Mortis Arc of TCW

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by GingerByte, Apr 14, 2017.

  1. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    With the constant rumours, and now dialogue from The Last Jedi trailer having Luke reject the Jedi Order of old, many are speculating that this means the birth of the "Grey Jedi". In legends the Grey Jedi believed that the force wasn't inherently good or bad, and that using the dark or light doesn't matter, so long as your intentions are pure.

    However, we know this is contradicted by film and TV lore. In order to draw upon the dark side of the force, your intentions have to be impure. Not to mention drawing upon the dark goes against the Jedi code, meaning there's no such thing as "Grey Jedi".

    Luke has seen, and experienced firsthand the power of the dark side, much like his father. He knows how dangerous, unpredictable, and uncontrollable it is. It would be folly for any Jedi to utilise it.

    I believe that the Jedi of old were like The Father (pictured in the middle below) from the Mortis arc of TCW, and that Luke is returning to these roots.

    [​IMG]

    In the Mortis arc, Anakin Skywalker, Ahsoka Tano, and Obi-Wan Kenobi are taken into an inter-dimensional prison strong in the force. Inside they come across the last of a race of formless beings known as Force Wielders. All three are essentially force gods.

    The Father attempts to bring about balance to the force by limiting both the dark and the light incarnations: The Son (pictured left above), and The Daughter (pictured left above). He never uses the dark, nor does he ever truly dip into the light. Too much light or too much dark is dangerous for the galaxy. The power of these beings means that whatever happens in their self-made prison can affect the material realm as well.



    The Jedi most likely disrupted the balance between the dark and the light when they almost completely destroyed the Sith, and we know for certain the Sith did the same by amassing power via the Rule of Two, and by almost completely destroying the Jedi. In other words the solutions to both have been extreme. Harmony has still not been found.

    What do you guys think? Am I onto something, or am I completely bonkers?
     
    #1 GingerByte, Apr 14, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  2. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Sensitive

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    I am literally praying Luke's line is spoken in hopelessness or in a manner that will be surprising.

    For 40 years the Jedi were a force for Good. Even in TFA they were said to be necessary to the balance.

    8 films in to declare Jedi as not really good destroys the triumph of Luke declaring himself "a Jedi like his farther before him" a grave mistake or great misunderstanding. Just NO. Luke was the Hope he achieved that hope bringing the Jedi back. Proving to his father resistance was possible.

    Outside of direct Canon Lucas explained how the Sith selfishness and power hunger brought imbalance and that the Jedi serving others and brining justice brought balance. His proposed philosophy was a brilliant synergy of both eastern and western ideals of good and evil.

    It might be a great movie but I hope they aren't killing the essential values of Star Wars.
     
    #2 Pastor Barndog, Apr 14, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
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  3. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    +1

    The balance was about the balance between good and evil in the galaxy - not numbers of Jedi and Sith.
    The Sith, like any Dark Side faction, spread evil everywhere and created imbalance.
    The Jedi's role was to remove this threat so that the balance between good and evil could be restored.

    I too am hoping that the line is simply down to Luke's jadedness or we simply have taken it out of context (Rian trying to trick us).
    Anything else is gobbledygook and diminishes Lucas' story and moral guide.
     
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  4. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Sensitive

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    I think that the line reflects old reports of "When we find Luke he is in a very dark place."
     
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  5. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Yep. It has to be. A bit sulky for my liking but probably understandable. Especially if he found out his own family was created by the Dark Side ;):p
     
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  6. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Sensitive

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    He tried to remake the Jedi and like the cave in ESB found the dark side waiting in his brightest student.

    Rey might be his finding a different way forward.
     
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  7. Valim

    Valim Rebel General

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    I'm sure the LFL brass have already said, your either a Jedi, or your not. The term gray Jedi doesn't apply, they would just be a force sensitive, or user.
     
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  8. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    I'm not necessarily stating that the Jedi aren't good, just that the Jedi have lost their way. The Jedi we see in the prequels are much more dogmatic, stubborn, and influenced by the Republic.

    They still do good, however they have become too intertwined in the events of the galaxy. I believe that they were originally monks who acted more like mediators/ diplomats. They still use the light, however their goal is to resolve conflicts without favouring either aspect.

    The Jedi Order of the prequels is not neutral. Not only do they get involved in the galactic war on the orders of the Republic, but they carry out missions against many who oppose them. The true Jedi would never have entered the war in the first place, and provided assasitance to both Republic and Separatist worlds, ignoring the commands of both factions. Life comes first.

    There are dark side factions besides the Sith that the Jedi never went to war with. Therefore, both the dark and the light can exist simultaneously.

    That's what I said above :).
     
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  9. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Sensitive

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    If that's how they sell it that could work. Certainly room for correcting I think Yoda changed perspective between trilogies.

    But the idea of grey jedi, "too much good is bad too," or the Jedi teachings are so false that they should be abandoned that jumps the shark, breaks the narrative of 7 films, goes against the creator of the series vision and worst of all turns Star Wars away from being about choosing good over evil toward something else. It depends on how hard they want to draw the distinction.
     
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  10. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    I agree. I'm not saying the Jedi should become "grey", thus abandoning the light, and embracing some dark. No one can use the dark and remain unaffected.

    I'm just proposing this theory for fun, based on what The Father says. Since Lucas pitched the arc, it's possible he's trying to generate some ambiguity.
     
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  11. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Sensitive

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    If you found my responses extreme @Alex Sebire it was not based on your posts. There has been lots of chatter about major dissing of Jedi.
     
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  12. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    I didn't find them extreme at all :).
     
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  13. JayBiggS

    JayBiggS Rebel Official

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    I do hope he is simply reluctant to train Rey. I think his plan was to just disappear and die off---the Jedi ways dying with him. But the Force brought Rey to him. It would mirror Yoda's resistance to train Luke. Luke probably feels like if he hadn't trained more Jedi Ben wouldn't have turned and done all the damage he has done.

    Unfortunately most of that is not going to be the case...they have been building towards this for a while now. George talking about blurring the lines between right and wrong, Kylo Ren being a villain who feels he is doing the right thing and is morally justified in his actions, the awful mortis arc, Bendu (like some kind of greek god creature), Ahsoka, Snoke not being a sith... Like it or not this is where they are taking things.

    In this day and age in cinema with nothing but antiheroes and sympathetic villains the real brave thing would have been to stick to pure good and pure evil. Look at Palpatine. There was no sympathizing with his goals or his past. And yet he worked and remains one of the greatest evil villains in film. Luke had a heart of gold and would do anything for his friends. When it came time to fight his father he threw down his weapon and let his love and hope for his father rule. He didn't need to 'tap into a little hatred' in order to help redeem his father.
     
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  14. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Luke's words are dramatic for sure, but we don't know what they mean, really. We can be fairly certain that he's not planning to end all light side force users as there are still bad guy force users out there who can influence and torment people and the Galaxy. Still, what vision Luke has for replacing the Jedi, if that is indeed what he means by these word (which could very well have been taken out of context) is impossible to say at this point. There is precedence for "gray Jedi" in Legends (even though, IMHO, it makes no sense to call such force users "Jedi"), but there are also convincing arguments for this not being the case. My current guess is that Luke plans some sort of Jedi.2 scheme, or "Jedii" (see what I did there? ;) ), and that while the Jedi as we know them will seize to be, he will set things in motion to replace the Jedi with something (in his view) better. Luke once was the New Hope, and, according to this theory, what he will finally bring to the table is a new, stronger/wiser/better way of safeguarding the Galaxy against the Darkness.

    It would indeed be a VERY gutsy move for Disney/LFL to remove the Jedi from the setting, but it would also be a very dynamic move forward, one that shows the setting (like the future) to always be in motion, and something just as awesome as the Jedi might come out of this new vision of Luke's. A new begining of things, bringing new problems and new heroes instead of recycling old ones until the public looses interest in the franchise. I honestly think that dramatically changing the playing field might do wonders for Star Wars, and it is not like LFL can't go back and do Jedi-relevant things with pre-prequels and sidequels later on when the longing for the good 'ol Jedi becomes too great. I for one is looking forward to seeing what Star Wars will be without Jedi, when the "Lukeians" take on the Darkness of the Universe.

    :D
     
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  15. PongSolo

    PongSolo Rebelscum

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    Wait a minute, Luke, sulking?!!!

    No, it can't be!
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---
    Agreed. I think a move toward Grey Jedi is not a move away from the Light but away from the monastic dogma of the Order. A-H-S-O-K-A!
     
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  16. Master_Farkaz

    Master_Farkaz Jedi General

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    I personally think Luke is serious about abandoning the Jedi-religion, not necessarily the core values, but all the limiting stuff!
    Like he says in the trailer to Rey, (after she sees Light, Darkness, the Balance) "It's so much bigger!"

    I think we need to look at the bigger picture and face the fact that there is so much more to the Force than just those three elements!
    Let go of what is comfortable and embrace whatever lies ahead...

    That's true, from a certain point of view... Don't forget, the LFL-brass are fans to, so they'll play with that notion!

    I'm not suggesting there will be 'Grey-Jedi', I think they'll become something different (though similar).
    Light does not necessarily mean Jedi, like Darkness doesn't mean Sith persé!
    And if they become neither Light or Dark, but one with the entire Force, in all it's Glory, using whatever the Force provides and guides the User to, that is where they'll find the Balance!
    True Balance is not something outside of oneself (like balancing between Light and Dark), it is within oneself (balancing the Force within)!

    Without Darkness one cannot imagine / appreciate / truly experience the Light and vice versa!
    But outside that dichotomy, the possibilities are endless...


    Well, I have learned over the years that one does not necessarily excludes the other... :p But yeah, I think you're on to something! :D
     
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  17. odmichael

    odmichael Rebel Official

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    The concept of a gray area is a central theme. However, I do not think the Mortis Arc has any connection to Luke's experiences in the new film.
     
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  18. Master_Farkaz

    Master_Farkaz Jedi General

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    Probably not, but as a part of canon (like The Bendu, which is a different form of 'gray') it does give credibility to the concept!
     
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  19. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    I think they're going to move beyond the limited and illusory binary ideology that the films seem to promote so far and explore the more complex view that George Lucas actually has talked about, and which we see explored in TCW Yoda arc.

    The idea is that there is dark and light in all of us, and that the natural harmony of the Force is a kind of 80/20 mix of light and dark. People wrongly think of this as grayness; it is just the true nature of the light in balance.

    That 20% of darkness in us is just our ability to be angry or aggressive when we need to be -- when it's natural. For example, if someone murders your child, it's natural to be angry, but it becomes negative when you allow that anger to destroy you. Or: if someone tries to kill you, it's natural to be aggressive and defend yourself. If you were completely selfless, you'd just let the person kill you. You go too far though when you enjoy the power that aggression gave you and decide to use it just for your own enjoyment.

    As we can see, it's not true that light and dark are always in total opposition. Yoda learns this from the Priestesses in TCW when he learns that he must accept his own darkside so that it won't control him.

    The great error of the PT Jedi, Yoda learns, is that by denying their own darkness, they allow it to control them.

    I believe Luke will have learned this from the Jedi holy books. This is what the trailer means by balance is "so much bigger."
     
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  20. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    You are correct. I am not tying Luke together with the Mortis arc @odmichael, I am merely applying the philosophy explored in that arc to Luke's chain of thought.
    That's an interesting idea.
     
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