SPECULATION Luke's Reformation of the Jedi Will Draw Inspiration From The Mortis Arc of TCW

I like how your words "a force for Good" portray the great challenge and inherent contrdiction in the Jedi "way". Good ideas and actions don't usually require use of force to implement and (outside of self-defence) we know very little "good" comes from exerting power through "force".

I think Jedi can be both a force for good and fallible at the same time. Canon already show us the order wasn't immune from corruption from within and without and our own histories shows us to be wary of those who believe their way is the only "Good" and to be cautious of final solutions.

Maybe, maybe not...Luke's declaration in ROTJ was a step in his overall journey and even if he ends up rejecting some mistaken or misunderstood Jedi dogma I wouldn't see it as a slight against the Order or any Jedi intentions but a respectful continuation of their quest for goodness and truth.

Calling into question cherished beliefs and associated tactics is part of growing up and the beginning of wisdom. It's a good way to avoid the dark paths of confirmation bias, arrogance, pride and hubris.

Old Luke may be ill, jaded, plain wrong, (or our speculation could be way off) but I think it's a good sign to see Luke execise caution if his direct experience keeps contradicting his received tradition.

Me too. I don't see TPTB "greying" the established canon or murking the morality water much - doesn't the Journal of the Whills imply refined Jedi sight should bring resolution to the gray?!

I'll welcome the introduction of more nuance into these stories - it may serve to better distinguish the values and tactics different characters hold in Star Wars. If most evil acts are often done by those who believe they are doing good we kinda have a duty to ensure we don't lend ourselves to the wrong that we condemn. When opposing groups start exerting their power over others under the pretence of peace (Resistance and the FO) or a student/master is assessing the merits of an ideology it is the perfect time to scrutinise the tactics of all parties and assess our position.

Besides, if TLJ makes me think a little harder about allegiences I'll take it as return on investment!

 

Here the thing, just because Luke grows to reject the Jedi way doesn't mean Starwars is doing the same. Maybe Luke isn't the Last Jedi all the way through the movie. Maybe he could never live up to the values of a Jedi.

He used emotion far to freely. He lost Kenobi, emotion. The same emotion Kenobi seemed to realize lagged his ability to finish Maul until he fully let go. Luke's love of his father won over the dark side on that day, but oviously didn't keep it at bay. Or Ben Solo wouldn't have gone bonkers.

Maybe Rey has to be trained by the last person to be a Jedi. But neither become Jedi again in this trilogy.

Also, just maybe Anakin did bring balance to the force, Luke and Leia, and Luke falls becausevas he is angry. Leia is the light. But he is killed. Then we have a Rey of light.

My point is, I don't want to see the Jedi die out, but for 4 of the seven movies, Jedi were all but extinct anyways.

Does it really. Luke brought his father back holding on to attachment, willing to suffer. Two things that often lead to the dark side.

My first thoughts were reaching towards protecting the Jedi how Inloved them most, PT.

The irony here is people are holding onto the PT version of Jedi, which I lived, but many disliked.

In a way this new derivative, or possible version, is forcing people to hold on to that attachment of the Jedi has pure good guardians of the galaxy.

Because in reality, in 4 of the 8 saga films, the Jedi have been a mysterious group, who one person said were at one time defenders of the galaxy. But these Jedi were all but gone, that interation utterly destroyed by its own dogma against emotion.

What Luke becomes may very well be an more extreme refined version of what he always was.

Rey=Light. Maybe she does what Luke could not, detach.

 

"It's time for the Jedi to end...and be made anew...".

I have a feeling Luke is talking more about himself and his families own failures and threat - but will tell Rey that she will be the new Jedi and pass on all that he knows to her. I think this ties into Luke discovering the truth behind the Skywalker origins and thus we're about to witness the end of the Skywalker family.

In TFA trailer Snoke's dialogue was cut up in a similar way. And of course we also had Luke's lines from ROTJ which had no place in the movie at all. My point is we shouldn't take it at face values but look between the lines.

 

"I'm a Jedi, like my father before me." --- "It's time for the Jedi to end."

Luke changed a lot.​

 

The only thing Snoke was fearful of in TFA was Luke/the new Jedi returning. He was so scared of it he essentially sacrificed his super weapon.

Are we really to believe that Luke thinks the Jedi must end? I don't think so. RJ has even said that the "last Jedi" is singular and that it is Luke - thus the title and that line aren't necessarily directly connected. What I mean by that is the title refers to Luke just being the last remaining Jedi where as the line is Luke potentially expressing his ideas on what has to happen to the Jedi Order.

I personally feel that Luke is saying exactly what Snoke did in TFA: that the NEW Jedi will rise.

But what does "new Jedi" mean? I don't think it will mean a move into the grey for the many reasons already expressed. Personally I think it will simply mean a rebooting of the Jedi Order, built with the refined knowledge of the Jedi post PT and without the baggage those folk (Yoda, Kenobi, Luke) had. I think this also ties into the Skywalker origins, which Snoke seems to have some power over or knowledge of. Luke knows his family is a threat and must end - and Luke being the last Jedi this means that the Jedi itself will end but that Rey can create the new order. This could indicate why Kylo is important to Snoke and that he fears Luke knows he must destroy his own family to both reboot the Jedi and end Snoke's threat.

Like I say, I think Luke's like in the trailer is cut short: "It's time for the Jedi to end...and be made anew" or something.

 

I think the Journal of the Whills has more to do with the Yoda's arc from TCW.
Now, more than ever.

First you hear Rey saying Light and you see Leia. In the backgroud you hear Leia's message to Obi Wan
(someone said it may be Shmi saying "he can help you" (he= Anakin, in EP. I) and that would be even more telling
given what comes next),
Then Rey says Dark, and we see Kylo's mask while we hear (in the background) Vader's breath and
old Obi Wan saying "seduced by the dark side" (-> Anakin)
Finally when Rey says Balance, you see first the books schelf inside the Force Tree and then the hand above the burned book.
meanwhile Yoda is saying "train the chosen one (or "this one") a danger is".(-> again Anakin)

So we've got: Yoda and the Force Tree (as in VOICES episode, while he's talking about "victory non in TCW but in all time")
and him speaking about Anakin and the prophecy.
This while we see the books and again a book.
I honestly see all the pieces coming together.

As I said elsewhere, the Gray of the Journal - IMO - has to do with Qui Gon's Ghost words to Yoda on Dagobah (after Yoda had a vision of the future: order 66, the rise of the Empire etc..)... hope "it often comes in the forms not looked for", "the key is knowing how to see it and seek the opportunity" -> those are references to the Jedi sight that have to resolve the Gray).

So of course, the Mortis Arc plays a part becouse it's meant to tell us something about the Chosen One.
I guess we will finally understand what those episodes really mean after endless detabates.

But the gray itself... I don't think so.

Above all becouse I don't think - even now - that Luke's words (It's time for the Jedi to end) will come true.
I guess it's what he thinks... now.
But why?
Becouse he knows everything or becouse he knows a lot but still misses something?
Finally...I find hard to believe they are telling us how this trilogy ends in a trailer...

 

I get the feeling you're reaching for something that will not be there. I think they will end the Jedi-Order and create something different.

Don't forget that Snoke is still manipulating Kylo at this point! Kylo still feels the pull of the light! If he find's out what Luke is planning, what will he do? I sense Snoke fears Kylo might be susceptible to the pull of the possibilities! That Kylo has the chance of becoming much more powerful Force-wielder and definately able to defeat Snoke!

Because the Jedi never really learned to 'control' their Darkside (except perhaps Yoda and Mace Windu), just how to surpress it!

I think Snoke mentioned the 'New Jedi' to Ren, because Kylo has a deep resentment against the Jedi-way! So by calling that, what he senses Luke is planning, 'The New Jedi' he makes sure that Ren is taking that as a threat, instead of the temptation it could be for him!

I'm still working my way through TCW and Rebels after that, so I don't know how that bit of lore goes.

But I have read and heard some about the Je'daii-Legends and I hope LFL brings those back into canon! They used all of the Force to do their good work, including powers now attributed to the Darkside!

I think they put that line in the trailer, just to prepare us of what is to come!
Because it's to big of a plot-turn to just throw at us, while sitting in the movietheater, because people would go bonkers and would miss most of the rest of the movie!

I think we're in for the ride of our lives in TLJ, a rough ride...

 

And create what? An order that is more susceptible to evil? I've aksed people this time and time again - what would be the alternative to a perfect Jedi Order? This "grey Jedi" nonsense is just baloney! What Lucas' film show us is that to become a true master of evil - you need to be wholly hateful. And to be a master of the light you need to be wholly compassionate. Kylo isn't going to be more powerful by remaining somewhere in the middle and being a master of neither.

But the point is, post PT the Jedi do find a different way and pass this on to Luke who does the same. So make a Jedi order with these ideals - don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

Before this trailer I felt the "new Jedi will rise" line was about Luke acquiring knowledge that could help the Jedi defeat Snoke. I'm even more sure of that now but also see it tying into the Skywalker origins. Luke is going to hit the reset button and it will be Rey who creates "the new Jedi"...kinda like Tony Blair creating "New Labour"

Which is classic ignorant thinking by ancient cultures. Times have changed. We have all witnessed how you can't just use a little dark side here and there.

Something drastic is going to happen - I just don't see it as the end of the Jedi. I don't see it as a merging of light and dark. But I do see the end of the Skywalker family and with it the connection to the Jedi of the past. Rey will make the Jedi Order anew.

 

It's a legit point of view, of course.
But if we have to speculate... I still think they're building something else: maybe a galaxy where there are a lot of kind of force users (jedi included),
and that they're scaring some fan and on doing so preparing the big twist, which cannot be reveled or hinted before.
More than everything, I think not only that LST's line of TFA means something... I also think we may use those words in a different way..
without the Jedi.. we don't know if can still sell lightsaber, movie tickets etc...

 

People do change, you know. I don't hold onto the same beliefs as I did and we don't even know the context of such little info in the teaser.

 

To be honest I have felt from the get-go that Luke will need convincing to return to the action.
The Force Awakens was all about finding the last Jedi as he can save the galaxy and destroy Snoke.
Snoke said it. Lor San Tekka said it. Leia said it. If Luke just returned then there wouldn't be much drama.
Something has to have happened to Luke to take him off this path (and explain why he was exiled anyway).
For me, Luke will be questioning his own family origins as well as his own capabilities.
Being the last Jedi, in refusing to return himself, it means the end of the Jedi anyway.
But that doesn't mean Rey can't build the Jedi anew.

 

Agree... in fact, why to train Rey?
If he really thinks the Jedi have to end, then... he just have to kills himself and job done.
And more than everything he just can choose to not train Rey...

 

I think people could say that he is training her in a different way - I just don't know what that could mean. If it means straying from the Jedi being beacons of light then I don't want a bar of it. But it strikes me, from the snippets we see and hear that Luke is training Rey in classic Jedi ways - "breath, just breath" sounds a lot like the stuff Yoda said to Luke in TESB - "be calm, passive....at peace". I see no indication that the Dark Side will play into her teachings.

 

I think he is training her to do what she feels she needs to do rather than what everyone else thinks she should do. Luke was used that way and still everyone wants him for their own purpose.

His own father wanted to use him for a selfish way. Join me....rule the galaxy as father and son. Yoda and Obi Wan destroy Vader...

Maz there is someone who could come back...

 

We have already seen them fallible. I welcome nuanced stories I do not welcome the rejection of the jedi.

 

Me too. But I guess we shall see.

 

I could definitely see Luke adopting a set of ideas for the formation of a new kind of Jedi order, not in the grey sense but just in reforming some of the rules and regulations. I would compare it to the Pope reforming things about what it takes to be a priest or cardinal, not that they change any of the over arching principles of the Catholic faith. In particular I could see Luke intending to create a new Jedi order in which family is integrated into light side daily living rather than reject in total. When something is shunned like that it often creates more problems, as the natural desire still lingers and is indulged surreptitiously which is far easier to corrupt rather finding a way to healthily integrate it as a part of life.

 

No, ofcourse not! Why would an Order that put's itself outside of the whole Light vs Dark, be more susceptical to evil?
I have told you before, an Order or group that holds to some basic principals of the Jedi, like being keepers of the peace, only use violence in defence of oneself or the defenceless, Love and compassion as as core values!
Also most of the training exercises can be maintained! But instead of keeping to the stringent rules of the Jedi-religion, they will be much more free in their movements, both privat as professional! Yes, they can have families, but must be ready to sever any attachments at any given moment when needed!

That's what he tried when he trained younglings again! (incl. Ben-Ren) Apparently it didn't work! So maybe it is time for something bolder!

Not just a 'reset', but also a big upgrade!

Not Dark-side, I said: 'powers that are now attributed to the Dark-side! There's a significant difference!
When using your anger in a controled fashion (like Obi1, Anakin, Luke, Yoda, and Windu have done in the past in their own way), you can tap into different powers without succumbing to the Dark-side! It's a matter of Focus, Perception and intent!

The notion that it cannot be done is one of the flawed Jedi dogmatic misconceptions!

Besides, Count Dooku (though misguided) was not a real Sith-Lord, because he never fully committed! Hence why he could use Force-lightening, but did not sport the yellow and red Sith-eyes!

Being in the center of the Force is not a merging of Light and Dark, It's actually neither! That's just a narrow view of a small part of the Force!

But LST is someone who dabbled into the Jedi-religion, without being an actual Jedi! I.e. he's just quoting scripture!
Trust me, whatever they do, it probably will be awesome and they'll still be selling lightsabers and other toys!
Because even if the Jedi go extinct, whatever follows in it's place, will still use lightsabers!

Even if Snoke and LST believed what they said, doesn't make it truth! (maybe only from a certain point of view... )

The end of the Jedi doesn't mean there won't be trained Force-users that fight for freedom and peace in the Galaxy, they just won't be called Jedi, that's all! So training Rey is just as important as it ever was!

Whatever they become, they will always be champions for Peace, Freedom, Love and compassion in the Universe!
Like I said before, the fact that they won't be called Jedi doesn't mean a thing! Ofcourse Luke will use training methods also used by the Jedi!
Don't fix what ain't broke!
Part of the Jedi-philosophy was flawed, but most of the training methods are sound! Besides, the basic 'Jedi-way' can be a good way to start one's training from! Before going into the more dangerous regions of the Force!

And about Rey and the Darkness, noticed anything about her lightsaber on the TLJ poster?

 

Because they'd be actively using their greed, anger and hatred?

It might just be me, but I am not seeing a reason to say the Jedi must end here. Just that they can now get married.

They never used their anger or rather when they did, it almost ended them! I've never seen Yoda or Windu use the dark side in anyway. Kenobi got angry once and was pushed into a pit. Anakin...well, we know what happened to him.

The idea that you can just use anger and hatred briefly and when you wish is baseless. In the real world it doesn't work like that. You're either angry or you're not. ANd as we see in SW, the idea is that if you give in to anger then you empower the Dark Side.

I'm not sure about that. Anakin's eyes turned back to normal when he met Padme on Mustafa.

Is it? What's your point though? You sound like you're advocating the advice Palpatine gave Anakin in ROTS!

Why would Snoke lie about his concerns about the Jedi returning?!

So why not just call them Jedi?

So it's just a re-branding? Seems unnecessary and confusing to me.