SPECULATION Luke's Reformation of the Jedi Will Draw Inspiration From The Mortis Arc of TCW

OT is the Arc of Covenant of Lucasfilm, the the holiest of all of their possesions. They would never allow themselves to make a piece of content that contradicts the first three films or diminishes events and characters shown in them. You have no idea how will the final season of Rebels or Han Solo film pan out and the only aspect of ANH directly affected by Rogue One is that Leia's lies to Vader are more blatant. It's not as bad as you make it seem.

 

Maybe. I'm jumping to a few conclusions for sure. But the danger is there. The idea alone of the Solo film, be it a Lucas idea or not, is dangerous ground for me. Likewise, messing around with how we should perceive the Jedi in the OT is a silly move. I'm all for original story lines, just not at the expense of the other trilogies.

 

What I find odd is that when new ideas for the films are put forward by the current creative team they are dismissed and we are told how they should stick to Star Wars dogma (the Jedi, Sith, Plagueis etc). Yet when they stick to a tried an trusted formula they are accused of being derivative and ripping off previous films.

Some people will just never be happy with Disney's involvement.

 

100% this. 100%.

Except I could probably edit it a bit: "Some people will just never be happy..."

 

I agree. Both the Prequels and Rogue One have done things that make watching the OT more and more distracting. Even if they are good movies on their own, they don't get the details exactly right and change the obvious meanings of lots of things in the OT. You have to do mental gymnastics to resolve the actions of those movies with what seems true in the OT.

I want more Star Wars, but I wish they would stay away from the OT era, or at least the OT characters and events. I don't need a Han Solo film, it's just going to mess up the character I'm sure. I would love to see more movies that are set way after (this new trilogy is great so far), way before (Old Republic), or very very far away from what happened in the OT. It will never happen, but that's what I want.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2017 ---

This is true, though often it is different groups yelling about different things. Some people just want more Boba Fett, more Jedi, more Han Solo. Other people want to modernize the Star Wars ideology w Gray Jedi, black lightsabers, etc. Others like myself want new characters and stories but no changes to the ideas of the OT. And yet others want the OT to exist and nothing else, ever.

So it's true when you say some people will never be happy, but maybe it's better to say "You can't please everyone."

 

I still do not understand how so much of the fan base fails to realize that what is happening with Lucasfilm and Star Wars right now is exactly what George Lucas' vision for the future looked like. EXACTLY.

If there was going to be a sequel trilogy, George Lucas said that it would explore the ambiguity between good and evil, the underlying truth of what is right and what is wrong. Life involves hard choices, but you still have to do what is fundamentally the right thing. Sounds an awful lot like the grey that must be resolved by refined Jedi sight to me. It also sounds exactly like what we are getting with the Sequel Trilogy. Exactly George Lucas' vision for the Skywalker Saga films. About the Force Awakens, Lucas said, "I think the fans are going to love it. It’s very much the kind of movie they’ve been looking for." It doesn't necessarily say what he thought about the movie, but I suspect that Lucas would have wanted The Force Awakens to get more into the storyline The Last Jedi is going to explore. We will see what he thinks about that film.

George Lucas also said that he wanted to give other young directors the opportunity to explore new and different genres within the Star Wars universe. Like, oh I don't know, an ensemble heist film similar to Ocean's Eleven (see Rogue One). George Lucas said he loved Rogue One... We will have to wait and see what genre the Han Solo film will follow, but I can imagine a few different ones, like a good scoundrel/bad scoundrel film, a buddy adventure film, etc. So, the Star Wars Stories (anthologies) are giving us exactly that vision from George Lucas.

People need to stop talking about how the new films are diminishing what George Lucas created or wanted. They are not diminishing his vision, they are fulfilling it. Lucas hand picked Kathleen Kennedy to run Lucasfilm to ensure that, despite selling it to Disney, it would still follow his vision. I just don't see why so many people fail to recognize this...

This is exactly right. You can't please those who fail to recognize that this period of new Star Wars films is exactly what George Lucas wanted. As someone who was 7 years old when Star Wars was first released in theaters and was completely enthralled by the vision of that Star Destroyer coming over the top of the screen chasing the Tantive IV... I can say unequivocally that this period in time, right now, is the very best time in our history to be a Star Wars fan. I am overjoyed with the prospect of sharing it with my children ... and yet I am deeply saddened that so many fans are failing to embrace it.

 

The same George Lucas that was so dismayed at Disney's direction that he referred to them as "white slavers" and said he was worried they'd turn the Force into gobbledygook?

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't that all said before George Lucas saw either of the films released to date? He was initially dismayed because they weren't following his treatments exactly (i.e. using teens rather than young adults, for instance...)

EDIT: And oh by the way, George Lucas apologized for his initial comments about Disney and the "white slavers"...

“I misspoke and used a very inappropriate analogy, and for that I apologise,” he said in a statement, in which he went on to say that he had chosen Disney as the “custodians” of Star Wars because of his great respect for the company.

“I rarely go out with statements to clarify my feelings, but I feel it is important to make it clear that I am thrilled that Disney has the franchise and is moving it in such exciting directions in film, television and the parks.”

Lucas also said he was “blown away with the record-breaking blockbuster success” of the new film and was very proud of its director and producer, JJ Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy.

Lucas was always temperamental and moody... much like Anakin.

 

they kind of already are...

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2017 ---

i THINK he saw and said that but then changed his mind aftera while.

 

The franchise has been exploring this concept since the first film through Han's character.

Has it been confirmed that the Jedi will be "reformed"?

Exactly WHAT DETAILS did these movies fail to get right?

I wasn't.

 

Oh there are plenty of posts and Youtube videos explaining the many inconsistencies. You may not believe me, but I really don't want to argue about that stuff. If the PT and Rogue One enhance your viewing of the OT, I am truly happy for you. For me they make it distracting.

Just ONE example - in ANH Leia claims she's on a diplomatic mission and Vader says plans were beamed to Leia's ship. But according to Rogue One THEY BOTH know she was in the middle of the battle for the plans and that the plans were literally handed to her. Now some will say "Well the plans were beamed to the command ship and then transferred into the Tantive. So technically Vader was right. Fine for you. But for me I just keep thinking "Leia knows Vader saw her ship at the battle. And instead of saying so, he's talking about intercepting transmissions!" For me it made more sense before Rogue One existed.

It's all good though, I have learned to basically pretend the other movies don't exist in my canon. I enjoyed Rogue One but in my heart of hearts I don't believe it actually happened like that. It works for me and I'm happy.

 

Except, you're making one mighty large assumption that Vader knew that the plans were literally handed to Leia. Heck, I don't even think Vader knew he was chasing the plans down when he was slaughtering those Rebels: Tarkin stated that Vader would be taking care of the remaining Rebel fleet, and that's what he was doing; there was no way for him to know that the plans were in the same corridor as he, let alone being passed along by the terrified Rebels. If he did know, then sure, I'd have a problem, because he let them get away, but his theatricality and murderous mindset pushes further the idea that he had no idea that the plans were aboard: from what I'm seeing, he used the Force to stop the door from sealing (made evident by it opening as soon as he stabs the final Rebel in that corridor from behind and through the door).

Let's not forget how common some ships were in the galaxy, let alone the Rebellion; the Tantive IV was one of many corvettes present during the Battle of Scarif, as made evident by this image:



I'm spying two there, and neither are the Tantive IV.

Finally, as for intercepting transmissions, this is also a true statement: the plans were transmitted in a general direction and not at any particular ship, and could be intercepted and downloaded by anyone with the knowledge that the plans were to be beamed up by Rogue One.
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Back to the topic at hand, though: I think that TLJ will certainly touch upon some points from the Mortis arc, but will add plenty more too. The way I see it, this arc was a personified microcosm of the galaxy portrayed by the Son, Daughter and Father with the means of helping us make more sense of the Prophecy of the Chosen One, and Anakin in particular: his duty, his struggles, and his role in the grander picture of the GFFA. From what the trailer showed, I assume that we're getting something much grander than another explanation of Light, Dark and Balance; rather, this will - hopefully - expand upon Luke's statement that the Force is much larger than simply these three ideals.

 

Greetings, everyone. I am new to this forums, but I'll spare the introductions here. I do want to commend the poster, Alex Sebire, for coming up with this theory of what Luke meant. I'll admit; I have issues with the Mortis arc of TCW, but thematically it is the strongest of the series. With that said, I do acknowledge some of the posters have stated that it is very hard to speculate given the lack of footage. Obviously, this being the result of a teaser. And I do agree. That line with the Jedi need to end could very easily be different depending on the context it is used in in the movie.

But if I was to postulate what that line means, I honestly think we have already a solid answer as to what Luke means and where TLJ might decide to go. And weird enough, I find that the answer lies in another franchise: Avatar the Last Airbender, namely Legend of Korra. Note, I will be spoiling Legend of Korra, Season three, so for those who haven't seen the series, I suggest you pass over this entire post.

It should come to no surprise how similiar Avatar and SWs is. They follow the heroes Journey and a lot of the concepts and ideas, both series borrowed heavily from. In the series case, the Air-benders were very much like the Jedi in that they got wiped out. Recall, that third season a big subplot was Tenzin trying to resurrect the Airbenders.

Many had surfaced as a result of Korra's actions last season. But this was a lot harder than Tenzin anticipated. Some of the students found the rigid, traditional aspects of the Air-bending monks too constraining and as such disagreed heavily. And while a good chunk of this was played for humor, the ultimate payoff(given Zaheer's background) was that the Air-benders changed. They became more proactive and didn't cut themselves off from the world. They became a global peacekeeping force.

Now, what does this have to do with SWs? I have a feeling that Luke, in many ways, was like Tenzin. After ROTJ, he attempted to restart the order, gaining a sizable chunk of students. The order I see would be a lot smaller, and I see Luke wanting to separate itself from the world in an attempt to rectify the mistakes of the PT era Jedi: getting too involved into politics.

And as such, I see Luke trying his best to keep to the teachings of Yoda and the PT era Jedi. I know some may not like this, but really I see Luke post ROTJ, a seasoned warrior, but a fresh Jedi who is way above his head. Now, obviously we do not know why Luke's order was destroyed and why Ben sided with Snoke. As for the students, I can see some not agreeing with Luke's principles, namely out of believing they are too rigid and outdated. And as such, Luke, given Kylo's destruction of his temple, saw how foolish and ill-equipped he was. Hence, going to Ach-too.

As for the line, the Jedi must end, I could see it tying into Luke's overall frustration at his mistakes or potentially the information he's been given. As for what this does mean for the Jedi, who knows? Maybe, they will go away and a new organization will form. For me personally, I'd like to see the Jedi, like the Air-benders, just change and evolve. Not so much being a Gray jedi(I like the term, "Silver" Jedi, coined by Youtuber, Lorerunner); but rather the Jedi are taught to grow and evolve with the changing eras.

This is something I could see, especially when you consider the PT era Jedi who like it or not; were a stagnant order, entrenched within there practices and blind. But that's just my take; agree or disagree. I look forward to hearing everyone's answers and I am super excited to see where this goes. Especially, given that Rian Johnson is such a talented director.

 

I here you to a point. 1 George has said that they didn't go with his treatment. So they are changing somethings.

Second you can go in the general direction Lucas wanted and still jump the shark fumbling the roll out of a broader vision or exploring stories. There is a big load of difference between exploring the morality of war and keeping power something George wanted to do with the ST and exploring that morality by denouncing the "goodness" of the jedi.

I have seen 0 people complaining about expand what the force is or exploring different expression of the force. Its ending the jedi (which might not happen) because the ideals of the jedi are flawed. Please before someone brings up the PT era Jedi. The OT Jedi were what Luke aspired to the whole OT built to it. IF a big giant if, they tarnish the jedi and turn away from them as good that's what most people I have seen object to. Now that might not happen, its fully possible that Jedi are still guardians of justice and good guys and they add some new lore.

 

Me too! Unfortunately, I suspect that Ashoka will come back in a different form, Convor most likely. If you buy that Anakin/Darth Vader is the Chosen One destined to end the Sith (which he did), then no one could defeat him before he fulfilled his destiny. Predestination is a b!t@h. I wonder if Ashoka facing Vader was part of Yoda's plan when he sent the three Jedi to Malichor.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2017 ---

BaranDo91, Welcome to The Cantina! Great first post, if you would like to introduce yourself formally, there is a forum for that too.
I appreciate you educating those of us not familiar with Avatar's story and how it may parallel Star Wars' plot. However, I think the allusion to The Whills in canon novels and their corresponding reference to balance (and use of the adjective grey) indicates a change in ideology for Force users that will catalyze.

The wait will be the toughest part between now and December.

 

Thank you very much. I appreciate the warm welcome. I avoided using the term, "Grey" Jedi but that is basically what I was stating with my post and the idea of the Silver Jedi. I see the order reforming itself to being less rigid and more flexibile in its teachings. Something Legend of Korra emphasizes is the idea of balance and how it is constantly shifting. What works for one era or period doesn't mean it will work for another. As the needs of individuals/ the dilemmas, while similiar, can be different.

In this case, we've canonically seen two wars. Both of which involved the Jedi and Sith. And while the Sith are no more, history has repeated itself. As such, simply defeating the Dark siders will not stop the prolonged inevitable cycle. What will be needed is a radical shift. I only wish Luke's jedi order was actually around because much as I love that concept, could you imagine seeing multiple Jedi/ learners having to deal with such a notion?

Oh, well. Nevertheless, I welcome this idea if this is the case, because like Legend of Korra, this episode if done well, will not only make for a fantastic solo movie, but in the totality of the Saga; actually, could enhance the movies.

 

i think this is the likely route we will get in-film with TLJ.
with regard to the Mortis Arc, no i dont think the proposed reformation is going to be too heavily influenced by it. the arc itself has a lot of interpretations and it really was a self-contained arc. that said, it might in retrospect (after seeing TLJ and taking it all in) have some sort of relation, probably coincidental if im honest, because theres a lot it can relate to with the idea of balance, good, evil/etc.

the way i like to think of the PT is that we only see what GL wanted us to see - the start of the conflict in TPM, the actual Clone Wars with ATOC and then the prelude into the OT with ROTS. Pre-PT we would have a hell of a lot of people looking favorably on the Jedi. in the TPM it is literally stated that peace had come for a millenia. that sounds pretty great to me. but because thats boring, we are thrust into the game-changing events. the PT at this point have simultaneously become dogmatic, whilst being corrupted from the inside through Sheev and no doubt (the political climate) more entitled and selfish individuals. this is echoed even in the ST--well, pre-ST with Bloodlines. the same themes come up, corruption, selfishness, and all the intricacies that a galaxy as vast as the GFFA can have - the power players and power structures in place are on another level (we think Earth is bad, think of that x100000000000~)

then the OT happens and we have the more traditional good vs bad - authoritarian Empire vs freedom fighter Rebels. as much as i love the OT, its very bland when it comes to the creating intrigue with the larger world (galaxy), probably intentionally, but maybe coincidentally.

the ST as said by GL himself and mentioned on this page, is supposed to go into the nitty gritty. thats great, its something i look forward to seeing. like BaranDo91 said, like in Korra, and much like how we have gone between many decades over the series, the times and circumstances change. they not binary. its always in motion. this will likely be referenced by Luke himself. what happened in the PT wont necessarily be repeated in the same way, the same with the OT. the 'refined jedi sight' likely references this also, albeit loosely. the reformation in my view should be like this.
its hard though, star wars has a bunch of the contradictions, extremes, loosely defined rules. its going to be hard for Luke to pronounce some sort of 'Code'.
in the end, i think we'll get a similar set of rules that the PT Jedi had - just with a Luke spin on it. we've got to remember that though Luke is wise and, well, Luke - he is only human, flaws and all, and whats hes seen and/or read about isnt necessarily going to be the 'right' way. Yoda had over 900 years of overseeing the Jedi, (possibly) defeating the early Sith, read and learned a lot too -- and he was stiill learning upon his death.

Luke is probably so sad because he cant think of a way to make everything right, echoing the fans on a meta level lmao

 

Why, thank you! Most kind of you to offer me such a rare delicacy! I will save it for a special occasion! I'm glad you appreciated my post enough to let go of such treasure!

When National-Socialism first came up in the late thirties of the 20th century in Germany, they were seen as reformers and doing what was right for their country! Bringing an end to the way a few rich people exploited millions! They tried to create a unified Europe, to end all the conflict and corruption! To spread wealth and to make people healthy and happy! Only when we arrived into the forties, did we find out the means they were willing to take to achieve this utopia! Now, 70 years later we see the ambiguity of it all and just how misguided the ways to reach their goals were!
No matter how good their initial intentions were...

So perceptions on people and ideoligies change over time, the more you learn about them! This is no different in the GFFA!

Let's wait for the movies first, then let's see if there is any diminishing going on!
I personally don't think the PT or R1 degraded the OT in any way! It might have given a new perspective to things, but there is nothing wrong with that! It enriches the Saga if anything!
Just because the story they tell doesn't comply with your personal, initial interpretation of the OT, doesn't mean it's wrong.
And how exactly does the defuncting of the Jedi (in that specific form, under that specific name) make a mockery out of the OT?? Maybe your interpretation of the OT is a bit rosy.

Always look at the bigger picture!

More than a few I'd say!
The tragedy of Anakin should have cautioned you against acting and judging, based solely on fears!

Great post!

Welcome to The Cantina, now that is how you make a great entrance!
Insightful, very insightful... keep 'em coming!