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Luke's Truth: Galaxic Sentiment or Blasphemous Jedi Sect?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jedi_Tim, Apr 28, 2017.

  1. Jedi_Tim

    Jedi_Tim Rebelscum

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    Is Luke really contending the Jedi must End, or is it the Galaxic sentimate about the Jedi and Luke has realized the key to bring the Jedi way back is a massive PR campaign of sorts.

    My theory isn't that Luke is actually contending the Jedi must actually end, but the way the galaxy views the Jedi. He may be talking in abstract, contending the galaxy wants the Jedi to stay gone, which is partly why it was easy to rise the First Order and even get Ben Solo away from the Jedi Luke was reestablishing.

    Maybe Luke is just paraphrasing what Him and Rey will face if they try to reestablish the Jedi.

    The Jedi had been victims of a massive decades long propaganda campaign against them. It's the remnants of this campaign that led Ben Solo to question his path as a Jedi and fall to the dark side. It was the political climate that gave the Jedi a bad name. Ben Solo was turned by Snoke with this sentimate--however big it may have been. The Jedi must end, kill them.

    Even Leia dealt with this in bloodlines. She had been victim of a smear campaign where Vader was her father. An association that was unknown but made an effective smear campaign. The once great Jedi Anakin Skywalker became a world killing despotic symbol of evil.

    What Luke learns is not so much that the PT Jedi were some flawed group of ideologs. That the way the galaxy now views the Jedi isn't how they viewed them then. I hope not, I don't want to see Yoda and Kenobi role has Jedi relegated to flawed teachers, one who failed to get it even though he lived over 8 centuries and the other learning to transcend even death. But somehow only Luke could see past all this. If Luke could find Arch-too, couldn't Yoda?

    The Jedi Knight were characters of good. They failed to see the evil in their midst. I can't see why they'd turn that into a false sect blasphemous Jedi unaware of their true purpose.

    What Luke may be referring to is a sentiment prevalent in the Galaxy, one more major factor complicating Rey's ascension. That Snoke and Kylo are the enemies, but the anti-Jedi sentimate is the cause. What better to come back than to show the galaxy the light that the Jedi are and how they understand the balance that binds us all.
     
    #1 Jedi_Tim, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: May 2, 2017
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  2. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Sensitive

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    I think the teaser is trolling fans. Its going on 2 weeks and fans are still buzzing about the Jedi ending.
     
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  3. Jedi_Tim

    Jedi_Tim Rebelscum

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    If they are, then it's working. I don't mind a good red herring from time to time.
     
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  4. BaranDo91

    BaranDo91 Rebelscum

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    I'm going to be really curious to see how Luke ran his Jedi temple. One of the things I liked about Legends was how Luke wanted to keep the temple separate so as to maintain autonomy and not be connected to politics. Thus, he picked Yavin IV(a symbol of the rebellion, but also those ruins in Legends were associated with the Jedi) and eventually Ossus when Yavin was destroyed.

    As for the Jedi ending, there is not enough context behind that line, but if I am to speculate, it is the idea of what the Jedi were, and what they should be. Really, I'll keep saying this again and again; I see TLJ being essentially SWs Legend of Korra Season two. Game changing in that it is going to reveal the history of something most fans wanted to know(Avatar and Jedi, respectively) and change the way we view said ideas through the events of the story.

    And knowing that Rian Johnson does love throught-provoking material(I.E Time travel and Looper for example), I wouldn't be shocked if I saw this coming into play, where he questions the role of the Force. It also has me suspect that Snoke is potentially linked to the history of the Jedi, but that is another story.

    As for the lin itself, I can see it being taken out of context. Context is everything.
     
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  5. Jedi_Tim

    Jedi_Tim Rebelscum

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    I wonder if those who make the trailer have a say.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 28, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 28, 2017 ---
    Snoke being one of the Original Jedi would be epic. I agree, context is everything. From the FA trailer I thought for sure Luke would be training a young family member. Turned out that was before FA.
     
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  6. Revanite95

    Revanite95 Clone

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    It could be a line said entirely out of context; that Luke is initially done training Jedi because last time he tried Snoke managed to turn Ben and destroy his Temple but Rey manages to persuade him to train her. Or Luke is shifting his philosophy away from the traditional Jedi teachings. There has to be a reason Luke went to the old temple. My guess is that he wanted to look into the history of the Jedi to find out why the unending conflict between light and dark started. In Legends, the Jedi were a spin off from the Je'dai, an order that believed in balance of the force to prevent conflict from starting, and that the conflict only began when the Force users abandoned balance and instead took a side and became Jedi and eventually Sith, creating the conflict. What if in the new canon there was a precursor order before the Jedi that was also 'gray' and that when that order existed there were no imbalances in the force. So Luke wants to end the Jedi because they were part of the problem and go back to the ancient ways of keeping the balance. Just my theory, but you never know
     
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  7. The Last Deadeye

    The Last Deadeye Rebel General

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    My feeling is that the scrolls we saw in the trailer were some kind of lost Jedi teaching. Maybe it was lost by the time of the PT. I think Luke is going to try to restore the Jedi to their original purpose, to protect the galaxy and become one with the force. The PT Jedi tried to protect the galaxy, but were constantly in a moral predicament of their own creation, because they were trying to only use one side of the force and still be an effective protector. So they broke many of their own rules and felt guilty for it in the process, when really they shouldn't have. I saw Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon as Jedi who had some innate feeling that they needed to bend these rules. Consequently, their legacy is still alive, as they were early reformists who basically created Anakin. Anakin then subsequently razed everything, created Luke, and thus provided the pathway to truly discovering the Jedi's original teachings, using the whole force to protect the galaxy. In this way the Jedi's own moral predicament was done away providing for a true balance of the Force, not an equal number of Jedi or Sith, but force users who access both sides of the force. These original Jedi teachings might even pre-date the term "Jedi" thus clarifying why Luke is the last Jedi. Rey could be the first powerful light and dark embracing force user since Anakin to fight for good (see certain Clone Wars episodes to see what I mean), and the first to feel comfortable and sanctioned in this role.
     
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  8. Jedi_Tim

    Jedi_Tim Rebelscum

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    I rember that at one time in Legends the Jedi were despised as troublemakers. I could see Luke trying to find a way to redeem the order. Maybe balance is key and Maybe that's what he means by "it's so much bigger."

    I do struggle seeing Disney give up the Jedi money makers though.

    They certainly created some excitement. I wouldn't mind some new Jedi teaching. Qui Gon and Kenobi rebellion partly led to Vader, but I guess whose to say that Anakin wouldn't have been a Darth no matter if Qui Gon took him or not.

    I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around there bring a Last Jedi, as in no more.
     
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  9. The Last Deadeye

    The Last Deadeye Rebel General

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    I think our view on what the Force has to offer is incomplete. We see things through a Jedi Sith binary, because that's what the first 6 movies were about. The Sith, for all intents and purposes, are either gone or fighting to survive with Kylo and Snoke. The Jedi are in rough shape as well with Luke being the last Jedi, and a force sensitive Rey. I really think this movie is going to be about removing the black and white labels of Sith and Jedi. Movies often reflect society at large and we're seeing this in politics, people starting to identify outside each political party. We're also seeing this in gender, with people feeling more comfortable to identify however they choose. I think the message of this movie is that the Light and Dark sides don't determine whether you are good or evil, you determine if you are good or evil. I don't necessarily agree with this direction, I just think that's where we are heading.
     
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  10. Jedi_Tim

    Jedi_Tim Rebelscum

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    Although I like this and it makes sense, it doesn't match Lucas vision or what KK said it was about. He said Starwars was always about good v evil and the binary choice to pick a side. I don't believe that means Luke can't flirt with the dark, but if he does I believe it will come from despair andnot out of seeking achient knowledge.

    One of the reasons I believe that is the complex nature of a grey. Kids won't get it, and the average movie goer won't either. It would be easy for them to give references of Luke being Jaded and flirting with being discouraged with his path as a Jedi. But a main plot point is hard for me to fathom.

    Although Luke's does say it's so much bigger, he could be talking about what him and Rey are about to do. That it goes beyond the First Order and familial struggles. That they represent the balance and they must see it through. That it will change Rey for good and she has to choose the path.

    Exciting times these are.
     
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  11. Revanite95

    Revanite95 Clone

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    Lucas vision of star wars was always an overly idealised one, and I think these new movies are going to challenge his original concept of Star Wars to reflect the modern world. People find it more difficult these days to believe in the idea that everyone on one side is good and everyone on another side is evil. Rogue One showed us that the Rebels weren't as squeaky clean as Lucas presented them- just look at Cassian executing the informant that was injured. I think the last Jedi is going to challenge the idea that the Jedi Order was universally a good thing, and that perhaps the Jedi in a way through their strict teachings harmed the galaxy- just look at Vader. If the Jedi hadn't been so dogmatic Anakin would have never turned to the Dark Side.
     
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  12. The Last Deadeye

    The Last Deadeye Rebel General

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    I essentially agree. I don't think this was Lucas's intention or idea by any means, but it reflects the world we live in.
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Very true.

    Hearing Lucas talk about Star Wars can kind of be a little frustrating for me. Obviously much of Star Wars is his brainchild, so his words should often be taken very seriously. Still, when speaks of the Jedi and the Sith, he seems to severely over-simplify things. Like, to the point that even his own films kind of contradict what he's saying.

    For instance, Lucas seems to have this idea that the Jedi are the ultimate paragons of good, yet we see the Jedi Order as a broken machine in the prequel trilogy, and Yoda and Obi Wan (presumably some of the most shining of the knights) are a little skeezey in the OT. There just seems to be a disonance between Lucas's rather layered portrayal of the order and his seemingly more straightforward understanding of it when he speaks.
     
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  14. Jedi_Tim

    Jedi_Tim Rebelscum

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    I do seem them challenging some of that dogma, but because Lucas did. KK seems to respect Lucas far too much to paint his vision as some ultimate flawed Jedi Order, and rise some apostate version. When Lucas art employees talk about George, it's in terms of his genius and follows wing his lead of good versus evil andthe Skywalker saga.

    It's one think to have Hon and Cassian act in ways counter to the Jedi, it's another to paint a picture where Lucas Jedi Order was the cause of all the galaxy problems and that Luke messed up by following g suit.

    My guess is whatever RJ does, it will add too and not debunk the PT Jedi.

    I think they will continue with the light being good, the dark being evil. The key I believe will be exploring the balance. I don't see them making George PT order into a power hungry order incapable to see past their own flaws. I look at it as Sidious was just that good. I bet they explor the balance and paint a bigger more enclusive world.
     
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  15. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Sensitive

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    I loved R1 and yes it did offer a much less squeaky clean view of the Rebels but it seemed very clear to me that the film was exploring how one resists evil. Each character had a spot on the spectrum of how they resisted the Empire. Notice how we all caught that Cassian killing his informant was wrong. Complex stories don't require the erasure of a standard to be compelling. Jedi in their ideal has always been and I think should continue to be a term to describe force users devoted to good. When those who claim to be a Jedi aren't good they aren't being Jedi. You don't need to remove or remake the ideal to tell more timely stories.

    Also many people talk about Jedi dogma as the reason Anakin fell but it was precisely his failure to address want the Jedi warned him of that fueled his fall. He was warned of his fear but it still consumed him. He did in moments of anger give in and use that for his power. What I think really hurt the Jedi was when they were pushed to compromise their teachings that created the weak points for Sidious attact. "They want you to lie." "They have asked you to do something dishonest." When Mace declared Sidious too dangerous to live and was willing to kill him. When Mace was willing to murder a prisoner just as Anakin against Jedi teaching according to Anakin that is what spurred him to act to strike Mace.
     
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  16. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Sensitive

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    The marketing for the ST has been all controlling social media and viral buzz. They have been at it for 4 years.
     
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  17. Jedi_Tim

    Jedi_Tim Rebelscum

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    It's funny, I'm a Communications specialist/PR and Marketing, and I'm trying really hard to get a job there because I do generally think highly of how they do things on that side. Alas, it's a tough nut to crack.

    Great point. Mace, leading some Jedi very much did act it opposition to their way. Much in the way Anakin did with the Count. Interesting point.
     
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  18. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel General

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    If you channel anger and use force lightening for good, say stopping a nuclear missile, it might not be an evil act. It might be using a dark side power for good. George Lucas may very well set the rules but his definition is obscure and irreconcilable with reality.

    That is why people are having a hard time with light and dark, good and evil and Jedi , Sith.

    George did a horrible job in defining the Force in a way that is easy to resolve with human reality.
     
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  19. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Sensitive

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    Pretty much all systems of religion and philosophy have issues that are difficult to resolve. Why would we expect Lucas synchronistic space religion to resolve a problem that many other philosophies deal with.

    But anger itself isn't bad (even for Jedi) they were to be mindful of their feelings and not to get carried away by their feelings.
     
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  20. Bosc

    Bosc Force Sensitive
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    Kudos for a good conversation so far. Thread of the week!
     
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