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SPECULATION "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Andrew Waples, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Jedi Commander

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    Well we know there are at least two of them. 'Yaddle' sits on the Jedi Council in the Phantom Menace.

    She's there, just in front of Qui-Gon.

    [​IMG]

    Here's a better picture of her:

    [​IMG]

    She isn't seen in AOTC though, so I fear her luminous self may have become one with the Force in the intervening years.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yaddle
     
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  2. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    The amount of times I've seen TPM... how have I not noticed? Yaddle Yoda well makes sense that they both begin with "Y."
     
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  3. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Probably just way too much sexy all in one place. Too distracting for the council.
     
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  4. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    One concern I have is that we just had a trilogy where Mark Hamill returns in the third act as a ghost/spirit to haunt a main character (Arkham Knight). Hopefully, IX will have an original spin on it - it would be disappointing if the movie feels like a copy of something else (cough... TFA... cough).

    Okay, Arkham isn't literally a trilogy, but it does have three real games (and then a couple of moneygrabs :D).
     
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  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    DOUBLE PLOOOOT HOLLLLESSSSSS
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 6, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 6, 2018 ---
    If you haven't....
    Watch Kurosawa. Then watch ANH.
    Then watch Kurosawa again.

    ANH is an amalgam of older stories refocused into Star Wars. Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Valerian, Kurosawa and even spaghetti westerns.
    It's in the blood of Star Wars to do this.

    TFA is meant to feel analogous to ANH.
    Yet it's differences are there and vast enough and the critique that it's a rip off ride almost entirely on SKB existing. Which is why it was a terrible choice by Abrams and co.
     
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  6. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Well he was alive; he didn't "die" till after the fact.
     
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  7. CaptainPhastastic

    CaptainPhastastic Rebel Official

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    I agree. After all, it is still important for Luke to grow and to learn things on his own. My interpretation is they only manifest when it is absolutely necessary, and when the outcome that is the will of the Force depends on it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 6, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 6, 2018 ---
    Ya'll are far too literal. LUKE is how he becomes far more powerful. Striking him down is what REALLY sends Luke on his Jedi journey, and his aiding of Luke as a Force ghost.
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Makes sense to me. FGOB is the reason Luke:
    • Runs instead of standing there in the open like a doofus waiting to be shot.
    • Uses the Force instead of that super sweet targeting computer to bullseye a womp rat sized exhaust port.
    • Goes to train with Yoda instead of heading off to that depressing Rebel rendezvous.
    • Knows he kissed his own sister and turns him off ladies forever (;)).

    That’s a whole hell of a lot of ‘interference’ from someone who “cannot interfere”. The simple reason he maybe couldn’t help Luke with Vader was because it was something the Force itself didn’t want. That’s not too crazy. Yeah?
     
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  9. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    Interesting thoughts here in this thread.
    For me personally, it's as simple as having the feeling that my "favorite mentor" or "good spirit" helps me out in crucial moments when I need advice or guidance and I can feel his/her presence so strong that I think if I look concentrated I could see him/her right by my side.
    For ex., in my case it would be my grandfather. Sometimes it felt like I could talk with him face to face.

    It was ObiWan and then Yoda for Luke.
    It could be Luke in a quite similar way for Rey. I am not sure how it works for Ren (good spirits for him huh?)
    Maybe the more deep the connection to the force from a force sensitiv being gets the more "real" the "ghosts appearance" can get.

    QuiGon and especially Yoda in CW and TLJ seem to be the "High End" momentarily (and Mortis?!?)
     
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  10. teline

    teline True Biscuit

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    I can never not associate this quote with one of my friends turning to me and saying it out of the blue with the sincerest of smiles, while high on weed.
     
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    This sort of reminds me of my favorite line in Jacob’s Ladder
    For Kylo, Luke would be perceived as a sort of malevolent spirit telling him things he doesn’t want to hear. For Ben though, he’d be a kind of guardian angel. The dark fighting with the light . . . . . . not sure where I’m going with this. Just thought I’d share :)
     
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  12. CaptainPhastastic

    CaptainPhastastic Rebel Official

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    100% not too crazy.
    Plus:
    - Obi Wan appears to him in ROTJ when Luke expressed doubt that he could go on without Yoda to guide him, tells him about his sister, tells him he must face Vader, provides him the inspiration to do so.
    - Anakin manifests at the end of ROTJ to show Luke that Luke did, in fact, "save" him.
    - Yoda manifests again in TLJ when he was at his lowest and wasn't going to help Rey. It's because of Yoda that he Force projected to Crait.

    Plus the various Force ghost appearances in Clone Wars by Qui Gon were to serve the will of the Force on this greater journey. I think it is clear at this point that manifesting isn't an easy thing, and isn't something that occurs often. It's when the will of the Force is at stake.

    Personally, I believe that the will of the Force is to bring true balance to the universe. Since the start of this 9-film arc, and all of the associated media (comics, shows, novels, etc.) there has not been "balance." Balance I don't think means what Snoke thinks: that there must be a powerful dark and a powerful light. Mortis showed that's not enough, or else there would be no need for the Father. Balance, I think, means the universe is rid of all malevolence that seeks to gain ultimate power and control over all other living things. The presence of hugely-powerful darksiders alone is enough to throw it all out of balance. The Force brought Anakin to Mortis to balance the Force by taking the place of the dying father, but he refused. Thus, I think that ended his "chosen one" status. So Vader dying, being "saved," and Anakin being reborn, and the killing of the Emperor are not enough. There's still not "balance." Snoke still exists. Ben is conceived on Endor and immediately Snoke begins his influence over him. The Emperor's contingency plan is already in effect. The seeds of the First Order are already being sown.

    Thus, I hope JJ knows all of this, I hope George/Filoni have been in his ear, and Ep. IX brings TRUE balance with the death/redemption of Ben, and the malevolence of the galaxy being eradicated. Yes, there are still going to be evil people. Good and bad still exist. But that overwhelming malevolence that has plagued the galaxy since the advent of the Siths will be gone and the balance of the Force will have been restored. THAT, I feel, is the "will" of the Force, and what has been at work throughout the entirety of the "Skywalker Saga."
     
    #52 CaptainPhastastic, Sep 7, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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  13. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    I agree to an extent, but I still have my doubts about what does it mean to "restore balance to the force". You may be right that the prophecy may refer to the elimination of the excessive malevolence, the amount that unbalances a state of resonable equilibrium. As you say, there will always be evil people, so you will not be able to eliminate all malevolence, but what you say is that the force will seek to eliminate the worst parts of it, the ones that usurp the force for doing great evil.

    However, the Jedi council in TPM knew about the prophecy back then, so if the Sith were eradicated by then (or so they thought), wouldn't they suspect the Sith, or another great evil could be at work and that was the reason for the prophecy? They seemed to be caught completely by surprise when Palpatine emerged. I guess the problem was over confidence again, now on the Light side.

    So, it doesn't seem to be important which side wins or loses, if the Light or Darkness. It seems that what the Force ultimately seeks is to temper both sides, or at least fluctuate between the two opposites, creating counterparts if one side becomes too strong. What matters is that the normal course of events is kept and that neither side becomes too strong, maybe as a safety measure to keep the galaxy together.

    I don't know. It seems that there's more to what this "balance of the force" means, and that's why I'm betting we'll get our answer in IX, after all this is the Skywalker saga, and Anakin was the chosen won to restore that balance. Snoke speaks of "darkness rises and light to meet it", Luke talks about "powerful light, powerful darkness", like acknowledging that as the natural way of things. So, there seems to be more to this than simply eliminate the super evil guys.

    So, perhaps the Jedi were supposed to end, because they were becoming blind and overconfident, as Luke said. Then darkness rose (Galactic Empire), it was destroyed (by the Rebellion). Darkness re-emerged (FO and Snoke) and now... it will simply be destroyed again, or ... perhaps something new will happen.


    In The Matrix, Neo was created to keep the system in a state of balance, and ultimately for the system to be able to capture Smith. In the end they both died and a new order emerged, an alliance between machines and Humans. Peace was restored, for a while at least.

    So, or it is as you say, balance is to remove the super evil presence from the galaxy, especially the one that threatens the force itself. Or, it is a mechanism to keep neither side too strong so that they aren't able to interfere too much with the force. Ultimately, I suspect it's a mechanism for the force to keep anybody from becoming too powerful, to the point of being able to interfere with the force, no matter the nature of the entity.

    Or it will just be one of those things that will never be explained and be left to interpretation. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. After all, Humans have always made the question of how they should run their lives and how to deal with the evil / good duality, which is what is represented by darkness and light in SW.
     
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  14. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    My take is that the problem isn’t specifically the ‘malevolence’ in the galaxy but the unnatural degree of misery and anguish that malevolence brings to the population of the galaxy. Remember, the Force is created by Life. Stands to reason the state of that Life can influence the nature of the Force it produces. The more negative the existence of Life in the galaxy, the darker the Force it produces. That darkness, in turn, negatively affects Life and creates a sort of deleterious feedback loop.

    The darkside is like a disease - treatable in small instances, but devastating when left unchecked. That was the role of the Jedi: to keep that sickness from spreading. What the Clone Wars shows us though is how the Jedi had been duped into fulfilling an antithetical role. They willingly became instrumental in a conflict that perpetuated the very misery and anguish they served to reduce. They’d lost their way and become part of the disease instead of the cure.

    The Jedi needed to die in order to be reborn in a fashion that was free of the corrupt form they’d become. That would have been Luke’s function before the ST. Now it’s Rey’s. That’s how it makes sense to me anyway :)
     
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  15. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    According to the current SW "Canon", the Force is described as such:

    The Force, also known as the Ashla to the Lasats, It to the dianogaOmi, and the Third Sight to the Chiss, was an energy field that connected everything in the galaxy.

    And according to the SW "Legends", the Force is the following:

    The Force, early known as the Power of Cosmos by the Kwa, was a metaphysical, spiritual, binding, and ubiquitous power that held enormous importance for both the Jedi and Sith monastic orders.

    So what is it? An energy field or a mystical/spiritual power?

    Who changed this?
     
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  16. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Both? Depending on your point of view? It’s a thing that’s presence is demonstrable. But its use also seems to somehow depend on ‘belief’ in it. So it’s both physical and spiritual to some degree (meta-physical).

    I’m gonna keep going by Obi-Wan’s definition: “An energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.” And then reiterated by Yoda: ”Life creates it. Makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us." Seems straight forward enough . . . in a cryptic sort of way.
     
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  17. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    Interesting take, but I think the Jedi didn't seem so much to lose its way, but had no focus. They knew after TPM that there was a Sith somewhere, but likely assumed Maul was the master and destroyed. Without a Sith, but with a looming war and their visions clouded, they were basically blinded. Sideous was the really interesting character in the PT. How he managed to hide himself and manipulate matters the way he did really is astonishing. This from a guy who's definitely not a fan of the PT. I think had the story focused less on telling Vader's story and more on Sidious, the story overall would have benefitted. It would have benefitted just by saving the viewers from the Padme Anakin dialogue lol.

    I honestly don't think of feel the Jedi failed, they were duped by a master manipulator. Sidious's ability to hide who and what he really was is by most accounts unheard of until the PT, and prove to be the biggest weakness of the Jedi. Without being able to view the future or sense people's motives, half or more of their power is rendered obsolete, they just become warriors without wisdom. They need that inside knowledge to give them their wisdom, without it, they become very ordinary.
     
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  18. Ben-K-OB1

    Ben-K-OB1 Rebel General

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    I agree with the figurative interpretation. However, The Last Jedi showed that a force ghost can interact with the physical world, which brings the literal interpretation of power to the forefront. I honestly believe that scene with Yoda set up Luke doing some very literal, powerful, and physical things as a force ghost in episode 9.
     
  19. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Sure, I get that point of view. But, to me, that WAS the failure. They couldn’t see through the deception and recognize they were betraying their own purpose. They were the Republic’s keepers of peace and justice and they weren’t, in practice, doing that. They were waging an unjust war. Not knowingly so, but it’s the results that matter.
    Hey, I’m no fan of their clunky and sterile exchanges, but some of it’s worth paying attention to.
    __________________________________________________________________________________________
    Anakin: Sometimes I wonder what's happening to the Jedi Order. I think this war is destroying the principles of the Republic.
    Padme: Have you ever considered that we may be on the wrong side?
    Anakin: What do you mean?
    Padme: What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we've been fighting to destroy?
    __________________________________________________________________________________________
    Squirmingly on the nose, but poignant. Just as the Republic had lost its way, so too had its protectors who allowed it to happen. They fell into a trap, but one they *should* have been able to see coming. They were the architects of their own demise.
    We just see the circumstances from different perspectives. I’d rather not view the Jedi as faultless victims that had something done to them. That it was 'unforeseeable'. I think a big part of the prequels is Lucas saying to us “This was avoidable. They failed. Now learn from their mistakes.” A cautionary tale.
    Maybe. But suppose that cloud above them was already primed for an electrical discharge. In that case, it was going to happen regardless. All Yoda did then was give it a little ‘push’ and point it in the right direction. A literal representation of what he figuratively does with Luke. There, now it works as a metaphor :D
     
    #59 eeprom, Sep 7, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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  20. Smullie_1138

    Smullie_1138 Rebel Commander

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    I like this. Looks like another take on some Rashomon style scenes, just like the Jedi Temple flashbacks in TLJ. It shows the conflicted Kylo reacting to Luke's appearance.

    The short story collection "From a Certain Point of View" does contain a chapter detailing this. Even though it's posted on the official SW site, this might contain spoilers.
     
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