Main Finn/John Boyega Episode IX Thread

While I love The Office and like Jim, I always disliked that dumb reaction he always does.



Yep. Totally off topic

 

Haha, good one, and for the record I'm not picking on you brother! In fact I'm starting to believe you really like Finn.

 

My Finn is a beast in Battlefront 2 on PS4!

I wanna know what he’s looking at. That’s a cold stare.

Now I will give you all this, if there is some Finn falling off the horse bit or stepping in horse poop, I’ll be pissed. After the Battle of Crait, Finn is a bonafide leader now and must be treated like one.

 

All true but this is not the "real world" I can watch a documentary on netflix for a hero I personally relate to from the real world. This is a long time ago in a Galaxy Far Far away.

--- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2019, Original Post Date: May 30, 2019 ---

Samuel L. Jackson was not even Samuel L. Jackson as Mace Windu so I reject the comparison (though I have always felt his Pulp Fiction character showing up to fight Palpatine would have been hilarious).

 

Do we get Luke's background and motivation? Do we get to see how he came to the fight? Was he our proxy? Did he just conveniently land there or did he make choices? Luke was part of the rebellion no? Is there some reason why when we're talking about Finn we resort to apologism for his lack of agency while his co-starts are exhibiting it left and right ALONG with a background, motivation, and choices? This is a really frustrating argument to constantly encounter, I have to be honest.

Yes, he is courageous. I don't think that's a point in contention. So is Poe, so is Leia, so is Luke, so is Han, so is Rey (also not in contention). Heck, at some point I suspect the argument will be made Kylo is courageous (for his slaying of Snoke and the PG). Everytime I see courage offered as a counter (to a point that wasn't made - i.e. that Finn wasn't courageous) it has the feel of an attempted derailment. My contention is that he is constantly called "hero" as a platitude while being denied the heroism on the screen others around him are demonstrating. And I think that point still stands.

I don't think there's a maybe here. He is not. And if no one was demonstrating fairytale heroism in this larger-than-life childish sense of over-the-top super hero status, then there is no issue. But that's not the case. I think the attempt to argue "he doesn't need special powers to matter" has run it's course here. Most people have now pivoted to "well of course he's not going to be talked about or focused on as much as people in the Force plot". And IMO, there's no un-ringing that bell. This argument cannot be had both ways. If he was as significant and as resonant as you suggest, there'd be no need to offer the aforementioned apologism for why Finn has limited focus and forward leaning speculation. I think a lot of us have long since taken note that the "magical space wizards" are only derided when we question Finn's stature.

And Finn ran away in TFA and TLJ so... what do we conclude here? That cherry picking snap shots of the motion picture doesn't really convey an accurate message?

Oh? So you can fight with a riot baton? You could survive the crash landing of a TIE fighter and walk through the dessert to safety the same day? You could survive a duel with a trained swordsman right now? You could be indoctrinated as a child and break free today? Can we be honest here: Just because he hasn't been made a force to reckoned with in the SW universe doesn't mean YOU could be him. It just means he is under powered and under utilized compared to his cohorts. You could no more be Finn than you could be Boba Fett.

Finn has already changed his mind about his beliefs twice in this trilogy (once about fighting at all, once about fighting for the resistance). The Finn you're talking about doesn't seem to exist on the silver screen.

But they're not mutually exclusive, you can be both (see Luke, Han, Poe, Rey, Lando). What is the argument against giving this to Finn? That making him powerless makes him relatable? I'm trying to imagine going into the Kylo Ren thread and saying people can't truly relate to Kylo because he also has "powers".

He really isn't.

 

Yes, let’s.

OK, not off to a good start. But let’s see where this goes.

Poe: This character is an artifact of Finn’s story. Not the other way around. His aptitude for flying is only truly significant in the film with respect to its utility for Finn. You were a little fuzzy before on the concept of character-as-plot-device, so here’s a teachable moment: Poe Dameron, in the first act of TFA, is very much a plot device. His function is to get Finn where he needs to be with the information he needs to have for the plot to unfold. The character focus here is on Finn and not Poe.

Rey: This character is positioned as the definitive protagonist for the overarching narrative of this tryptic. Almost ALL of the characters in TFA are leveraged in some capacity to propel her toward her ‘destiny’. It’s rather intellectually dishonest to single Finn out for that.

Rose: This character, like Poe, is an artifact of Finn’s story. Not the other way around. Finn stems from an immensely militant and cloistered background. He has little to no practical concept of the larger galaxy as it exists beyond the First Order. He’s only just liberated himself maybe a couple of days prior. Pairing him with someone with real world experiences he can learn from is perfectly logical. Rose is introduced to us fully formed. The only one who grows in that dynamic is Finn. The character focus here is on Finn and not Rose.

There must be numerous instances of this for it to be a talking point. Can you provide a few examples please?

As I stated in the previous post, that’s not redundant, that’s reestablishment of character. He begins TLJ where he ends TFA: only concerned for Rey and no interest in the war. That’s a pretty clearly conveyed direction - away from the fight. A direction that very sharply turns though. I’ll grant you that. He goes from doomsayer to secret agent pretty quick. Some sloppy buildup there.

Do you mean in reference to what it would have been like to grow up within the FO? How that experience might inform his character and provide the audience with greater insight into how he thinks, feels, and relates to those around him? Yeah, I would have loved that. Way more than the plight of some stupid CG horse-goats. That gripe has a pretty high rank on my not so brief list of issues with TLJ.

No argument here. Excessive and wince worthy. Really didn’t care for either.

It seems one of us isn’t entirely certain on what a ‘rehash’ is. Maybe it’s me. I thought a rehash was the reuse of an established element with no additional context included, leading to a net zero gain. There’s some common elements there, but I see it all with respect to forward progression for the character, rather than stagnancy.

Not terrifically well executed progression, but progression. Who he is at the end of the film is in direct opposition to who he is at the start of the film. The steps taken between those two points are clunky and awkward and a bit of a chore, but they’re there.

His final scene in TFA is being comatose while someone he’s grown close to looks after him. His final scene in TLJ is with someone he’s grown close to being comatose while he looks after them. Similar, but different.

And it’s par-for-the-course to me that when counterarguments to those claims are made, they aren’t directly refuted with cogent nuanced reasoning, but met with generalities and platitudes fueled by unrequited preconceived notions. But that’s just how discourse works these days

“Disregarded”? Chewbacca is disregarded. Finn is the most prominent figure behind the main hero and main villain. I’ll recognize the character himself was fumbled in the sequel, but the entirety of all that Canto Bight nonsense was in service to nobody other than Finn. That’s HIS storyline. It’s not a particularly good one IMO, but it’s his. That’s no being “disregarded”. That’s being mismanaged.

 

I'll do you one better; go back and imagine every single main character in the OT with the level of agency and competence that Finn has been afforded so far then imagine if Star Wars would still be what it is today. So essentially Luke Skywalker (I'm not saying Finn's the main protagonist) without the force powers, the lightsaber, the death star trench run, the ability to pilot, the development as a warrior, or the ongoing development of his relationship to the main antagonist. Add in some pratfalls and cringe dialogue in Alt-ESB and you have Finn.

Before any of you respond with the typical Han Solo comparisons, that doesn't fly because the people making the movies have explicitly stated that Poe, not Finn, is the Han archetype character for this trilogy. Not my words, Kasdan's.

 

And yet Poe has more agency and adds more to the plot of the film during the last arc, and this trend continues in TLJ. Huh, its ironic that a character who was supposed to die, and with significantly less screen time in the first films has more agency and more narrative consistency than someone who's supposed to be narratively important.

That's strange because Rose isn't. Do we see Poe Dameron being knocked out in order to better demonstrate Rey's (and Kylo's) abilities. Not to mention outside of the narrative, with the film's marketing campaign, which is already a perfect example of Finn's usages. He's a plot device who's purpose was to hide a specific plot point. And after that, Finn's other uses include

And yet the only memorable character growth that adds something to the overall narrative here is Rose's. The loss of her sister which propels her actions forward, the understanding of her feelings towards the Resistance and why it's so important to her. Her narrative and character motivations are what's important, and not a simple redo of what Finn was supposed to learn in the previous film.

The end of TFA. It was a great moment for both Kylo and Rey after Finn was taken out of the fight. It worked well to establish both characters and up the scene's tension.
Finn and Rose's relationship worked beautifully in showcasing Rose as a new character.
The end of TLJ

And as I stated in the previous post, it's redundant. Especially when you know that in Finn's original TLJ opening, he was supposed to be a gunner working on a ship, already fighting with the Resistance.

And this is the perfect example of Finn's use as a plot device. The only time his personal history/feelings are thought about is when it is time to move the plot from one point to the other. Need to have information on the FO? Well, Finn just so happened to mop up that room one time. In fact, all of Finn's intel could simply be replaced with an aside about how some Resistance forces worked hard to gather

No argument here. Excessive and wince worthy. Really didn’t care for either.

It seems one of us isn’t entirely certain on what a ‘rehash’ is. Maybe it’s me. I thought a rehash was the reuse of an established element with no additional context included, leading to a net zero gain. There’s some common elements there, but I see it all with respect to forward progression for the character, rather than stagnancy.

Not terrifically well executed progression, but progression. Who he is at the end of the film is in direct opposition to who he is at the start of the film. The steps taken between those two points are clunky and awkward and a bit of a chore, but they’re there.

I was referring to Finn's actions and personal decisions being stripped from him at the last hour. Kylo knocking him out at the last moment before Rey takes the lightsaber. Rose taking away his choice to complete the suicide run at the last second. Those were narrative beats that repeated themselves throughout both films. There's a constant lack of agency that one expects from a...wait for it...plot device

Chewbacca is a beloved member of the franchise proper. He's stood the test of time and will still be remembered after this new trilogy is done. Finn...not so much. Finn is an amalgamation of redundant plot points that'll probably be forgotten by the time the last film is out. Sad. But hey, what can you expect from a plot device?

 

Well, you convinced me. Finn's a lousy character and I'm wrong for liking him. Have a splendid day.

 

Gonna break my little sabbatical/hiatus (has it only been 8 days?!? It feels SO MUCH LONGER) to just post my thoughts on Finn for Ep IX, and then hopefully be done with these stalemate Finn threads for a LONG while.

So for a couple of months now there has been something about Star Wars that has been...not sitting right with me. It had nothing to do with the GoT people (since we were all aboard that bandwagon until Season 8 came out), it had nothing really to do with Resistance, it had nothing to do with many of the debatable topics of Star Wars. It was just an overall feeling.

Then Endgame came out, and I realized two things.

First, I consider the fandoms I love as being in a relationship.
Second, I consider super blockbusters and stories like Star Wars and MCU the essential mythology of our time. Like, when future historians look back at the late 20th and early 21st Century (assuming we as a human race live past the 21st Century...) they'll see our love of Star Wars and Game of Thrones and Harry Potter and the MCU the same way we think the Northern Europeans viewed the Norse gods, or the Greeks viewed their Pantheon. But instead of Zeus it'll be Captain America and Superman and Spider-Man; Instead of Hephaestus we'll have Iron Man and Batman, etc. Call me crazy, but I genuinely believe that.*

So when I realized this, I looked back and wondered about people of my own skin color. Where is our place in this story? Are we forever mitigated to the Black Best Friend, the Magical Negro, and other side roles?* Where are the Star Wars movies that I can watch with my future son (in the far, FAR, future lol) and say "you too can be THE hero?" Isn't there enough room for all of us to have main roles without seemingly lowering others? THAT was the question that had been bugging me, and that's the answer Star Wars has yet to answer for me.

Don't get me wrong, I STILL LOVE FINN. But I need to take a break with Star Wars to ask myself what I want out of him and Star Wars now, and that's a question I haven't found the answer to. Or maybe it's that I found the answer and that it's simply that he can't give me what I want or need right now...

So my point to all of this is maybe we as fans should consider what we want out of Finn, how to define that, and why that is before we have a complete and total repeat of TLJ's Finn forum...

*I should also note that this is all for films and maybe tv in the future. Those are the materials most kids will see and those are the ones easily accessible to all audiences.
*I'm not saying these roles are inherently bad. Rhodes and Falcon are great in the MCU, but they also have characters outside of being the best friends to Iron Man and Captain America respectively. The problem becomes if that is the ONLY role for people of color within a franchise.

 

Where does this info come from? I follow spoilers and reports and don’t recall this opening. If I remember correctly from very early on it was stated that TLJ would start from right when TFA ended. The above opening would not fit that timeline as Finn was in a coma at the end of TFA. On the extras for TLJ there is an alternate opening where Finn wakes up at the very beginning

 

I do remember there were reports that Finn was one of the gunners. I believe they even filmed stuff but it was changed because Rian just had to have the films back to back. What kills me is that Rian's reasoning for being back to back is that he wanted to see what Luke would do in that moment on Ahch-To. The fact that he made the decision to have Luke throw the lightsaber over his shoulder still boggles my mind. The biggest mistake in this trilogy was Rian not having a time jump for everyone off screen to mature. It would have solved a lot of issues. But I digress...

@Use the Falchion You didn't mention Black Panther, which is one of the most well regarded MCU films in the series. I'm not black but I enjoyed the hell out of that film. Did you not see it?

EDIT: Found this on Reddit about Finn being the gunner...

Finn was going to be the gunner in Paige's bomber. He would start the movie covered in a helmet and facemask, and his intro reveal would be pulling the mask off. This is all described in the art book. This is part of an earlier draft that also had the opening Dreadnought battle starting somewhere besides D'Qar, so it's possible there was a time jump at that point.

This image is from KMT's screentest, so that draft was probably still in play at the time they did it.

 

Coming from Reddit I am skeptical that this was actually true. If it was from a more reliable source I would buy it. Of course I can’t prove that it isn’t true but the source material is not very reliable

 

It was in the Art book. The person on Reddit pointed that out. I don't have it handy or I would check. But I do remember reading about it.

--- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2019, Original Post Date: May 30, 2019 ---

Finn in yellow bomber suit. They filmed something but changed it.

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Better shot. Really wish they stuck with this idea.

 

I did! I've seen it multiple times since then, but I left it off the list because it is EXACTLY what I'm wanting from Star Wars frankly; that list was about the characters in the MCU who had roles similar to Finn. My revelation also didn't come from Black Panther, so it didn't fit there, and putting it on the list felt like I'd be asking too much of Star Wars too soon. I'd just settle for a black lead that doesn't feel like he or she is there to prop up someone who isn't.
Black Panther was a great movie but the effects of the movie when FAR beyond the quality of the movie itself. There is a reason it made a billion dollars and why people are so excited for a sequel. If Star Wars wants to have that same resonant effect, it needs to understand what made Black Panther so great and try to integrate it with what makes Star Wars great. But recently Star Wars has been a bit...reactionary, and not in all the best ways.

Honestly, they could have done both. Finn wakes up from the coma, gets rushed to the battle because they needed someone after Starkiller Base and Poe vouched for him, he's seen as a hero for his actions (but his "lack of heroism" is highlighted by the fact he didn't even know his fellow pilots' names), decides it's too much and tries to leave.

 

I fixed the typo for you. Glad I could be of service. You have a splendid day as well.

 

I think TFA got a lot of people excited because of the hope that we'd have female and black lead Jedi characters. I really wish they were up to the challenge of making that a reality.

 

Rey is a strong female character but Finn is a failure as a black character. A pathetic sidekick used as a bait-n-switch.

--- Double Post Merged, May 31, 2019, Original Post Date: May 31, 2019 ---

Rey is a strong female character but Finn is a failure as a black character. A pathetic sidekick used as a bait-n-switch.

--- Double Post Merged, May 31, 2019 ---

Rey is a strong female character but Finn is a failure as a black character. A pathetic sidekick used as a bait-n-switch.

--- Double Post Merged, May 31, 2019 ---

Rey is a strong female character but Finn is a failure as a black character. A pathetic sidekick used as a bait-n-switch.

 

So you think his character was written with the purpose of misleading and upsetting people? Did you quote me 4 times for a reason?