Main Finn/John Boyega Episode IX Thread

I disagree Rey, Kylo and Luke are telling a continuing story. Rey didn't care about the force in TFA. Rey never seemed surprised about having the force, and her running away from Maz was to emphasize that. The only thing she wanted was family. Rian ignored Rey is motivated by family. Not learning the truth about Kylo. The only thing she has in common with Luke and Kylo is the force. Other than that, they are three totally different people with nothing else in common, so while she spent time with those two characters. She has no actual connection to them, and there can never be an emotional payoff.

Kevin Feige knows superheroes are nothing if we can't relate to them on a human level. Humanity has been thrown out the window in this new trilogy.

 

That is because RJ does not know how to write for minority characters this why Finn was lame and people hated Rose Tico. JJ does a decent job with writing for diverse character such as Finn. This is why Finn was well beloved by many people from The Force Awaken.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 20, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 20, 2019 ---

Look at what John Boyega had to say


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">John Boyega isn&#39;t happy with the sequel trilogy it sounds like.<br><br>Says he&#39;ll give his &quot;true feelings&quot; like the GoT cast did, &amp; had &quot;discussions on set&quot; about the bad writing.<br><br>Remember this when you see articles about &quot;Toxic trolls review bomb EpIX on Rotten Tomatoes.&quot; <a href="https://t.co/8rNrpzSiFM">pic.twitter.com/8rNrpzSiFM</a></p>&mdash; Dataracer (@Dataracer117) <a href="">June 14, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 20, 2019 ---

Fat_Ironman@Fat_Ironman

Replying to @Sheeev66 @JohnBoyega


I hope after ep9, we here the true feelings from the actors. Seeing GOT actors voice their displeasure with the way their show ended gives me hope. I suspect we will hear similar stuff Jan/Feb next year. Ep7 was ok, Ep8 was blast. Hopefully Ep9 is good.


67
10:49 AM - May 29, 2019
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Boyega would respond stating, “Don’t worry. I most definitely will !”


John Boyega

✔@JohnBoyega

Replying to @Fat_Ironman @Sheeev66

Don’t worry. I most definitely will !


307
10:50 AM - May 29, 2019
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36 people are talking about this








Back in the beginning of June, Boyega would respond to another fan who noted that his character is the “most useless” in the current Star Wars franchise.





Grand Maester Biti@Forteous_Apollo

Replying to @IndieWire

John Boyega is the most useless character in the current Star Wars franchise but you don’t here him say anything at how bad that writing is.


2
7:10 PM - Jun 6, 2019
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Boyega stated, “I have those discussions on set.”


John Boyega

✔@JohnBoyega

Replying to @Forteous_Apollo

I have those discussions on set.


28
8:02 PM - Jun 6, 2019
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He would continue the conversation noting, “Heroes aren’t born overnight. It’s a role not a breakdown on who I am in real life. Peace!”





Grand Maester Biti@Forteous_Apollo
· Jun 6, 2019

Replying to @JohnBoyega
Keep having those discussions. Be the hero that you were meant to be from the first movie and get the girl. Not what they did to you in the second one.


John Boyega

✔@JohnBoyega

Heroes aren’t born overnight. It’s a role not a breakdown on who I am in real life. Peace!


19
10:13 PM - Jun 6, 2019
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For me, I'll take this interpretation with a grain of salt like most. Just because he says "Don't worry, I definitely will" doesn't necessarily mean it will be something negative, taking that as it isn't happy could be a stretch.

 

The audience isn't looking for cues from Boyega to tell us what was a good role or not. He can say whatever he wants, but I already made up my mind based on my observation.

If he is incapable of creating a story with great characters across the board because he sees ethnicity first then he shouldn't be making films. The world is too diverse to have such a narrow point of view. It's no wonder he made indie films. He doesn't know how to appeal to a mass audience.

 

I don't think the audience is going to look to him to tell us what is good or bad. I certainly am not. That is the great thing about opinions, everybody is entitled to have their own. In the end, they are just opinions. What is right for me, you, or Boyega doesn't have to be right for everyone.

 

Rey rejected the force until she needed it and used it against Kylo in TFA. In TLJ Rey discovers the implications of her having the force and acquires certain degree of hubris, a hubris that had already caused Luke's downfall: She thinks she can read Kylo. In the end she learns her mistake and her lack wisdom and humility. So there is an evolution in Rey's relationship with the force and her acceptance of it.

To your other point: Rather than family, Rey wants "belonging", which is a very deliberate word used in TFA, a spiritual longing more than blood shared, Kylo shows it as “her weakness” and tries to influence her on this matter, highlighting the lack of support she is having from Luke and connecting it with her being abandoned by her parents, telling her that the best way to “be” in life is cutting bonds with others like he has done. Rey’s sense of solitude and alienation is met by Kylo's nihilism. That is the heart of the story: a sense of belonging as both share, from completely different philosophies, a moment of compassion and understanding. It does not last. In the end their very different natures and motives clash. The question to be asking here is: what have they both learn from this experience, from each other, and how it will affect them in TROS? so yes, I am personally invested in both these characters and hope they find a true path to reconciliation in TROS, whatever shape that takes. Kylo/Ben has a lot to learn and hopefully that’s what he will experience in TROS. That would be a satisfactory emotional payoff for me.

Yes I don't know about Feige superheroes, because I don’t watch or follow those stories, but if there is something that all the main characters in the ST share is their humanity. All these long threads about the various characters in this trilogy prove we are all invested in them and that their destinies matter to us. Finn story might have been slightly mishandled in TLJ, but his character is still engaging. I can't wait to see what's in store for him in TROS.

 

I understand what you're saying, and thanks for sharing. For some reason, the story clicks a little more because of how you put it. But this is where TLJ loses me a bit. Rey and Kylo's connection - while indeed praiseworthy to a degree - always felt forced to me. As you said, Rey was looking for a place of belonging. But Kylo wasn't. To me it looked like he made his choice, and cemented it with his actions all throughout TFA and TLJ. He isn't looking for redemption, he's looking to rectify what he sees as the previous generation's mistakes. And that's one of the reasons I don't care about his arc with Rey in TROS. They've had their emotional arcs together. It didn't work out how either of them expected. Let's end it there. Maybe it's time for a re-watch of the ST, but I vaguely remember Kylo threatening to end the Jedi line at the end of TLJ, which I took as a direct threat to Rey's life.

The second problem I have is more of a creative difference between me and RJ*. RJ likes to use duality in his movies - an angel and a devil on each shoulder. Personally I find that limiting. To me in TFA, Kylo's biggest parallels were with Poe and Finn. Poe being the Spiritual Successor to Kylo's Prodigal Son. And Finn being the correct archetype to Kylo's shadow - one raised in Light and individuality, but willingly turned to the Dark and wears a mask. One raised in Darkness and forced to wear a mask, now sheds that to walk in the Light (with a little bit of help ). Kylo notices Finn on Jakku, knows his number, and even yells "TRAITOR" (which I interpreted as Kylo projecting all of his fear, doubts, and truths about himself onto Finn) at our favorite Stormtrooper. These might be less intimate than Kylo's scenes with Rey, but no less meaningful. Or at least to me they weren't.

Rey's connection to Kylo was only due to their shared powers and a small relationship with Han (which ended when Rey rejected Han's offer, severing our reason to care for Han because Rey cares for Han**). And if the MCU taught me anything, it's that you need more than a shared powerset to make a good villain and hero relationship.***

Now all of this is to say that Kylo's relationship to Rey in TLJ wasn't bad, but it didn't build on other potential connections. And I believe those other connections could have fleshed him out even more. Think of Zuko in Avatar: The Last Airbender. He has his father/son relationship with his Uncle Iroh, a strained relationship with his actual father, his insecurities about his sister, the loss of his mother, the journey from seeing Aang as a mission to seeing him as a person. You've got his bond with Katara (which mirrors Kylo and Rey's relationship from a certain point of view), his parallels with Sokka (something not brought up a lot, but still there), and his friendship with Toph. Kylo on the other hand has roughly half as that, and even less are explored in TLJ. I'm doubting they'll explore it anymore in TROS.

On the bright side for both Kylo and Finn, at least they're getting more characters to surround them in TROS (Rey gets Rose for a time, but I'm sure our favorite engineer will share more screentime with Finn than Rey), with Kylo FINALLY getting the KoR and Finn (and Poe!) joining with Jannah.


*How dare I sound so familial with a guy I've never talked to!
**That doesn't mean we can't care for Han on our own, but for someone who has never seen Star Wars, it might be hard to do so if they don't have the knowledge/background of the OT.
***Iron Monger, the Winter Soldier, and Killmonger are villains with the same powerset done right, but they're exceptions, not the rule. Except for Iron Monger since he started the trend...

 

You’re right. Kylo seems to have made his choice and yet... there are breadcrumbs all over these movies showing us that he, in spite of his destructive purpose, is not completely committed to the dark side. Kylo may shout all he likes to Luke that he’ll kill Rey in the heat of the moment, but his eyes looking at Rey during their last force connection in Crait say something very different... I personally don’t think that Kylo’s full commitment to the dark is there. It may appear so, but his inner turmoil points at his destructiveness not being permanent.

 

Well said

 

There were indeed other angles and stories that could have been explored in TLJ, there is no doubt about that. I only hope that the connection between Kylo and Rey is not neglected in TROS. For me, it is what makes the ST truly unique and special.

 

And a part of me saw it the way you do, I also saw that scene as a man who wants to eat his cake and have it too. He wants to destroy Rey and her connection to the Jedi and wants her to join him.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here lol! Rey closed the door on Kylo, and I would be happy if they never opened it up again. The fact that this is THE connection in ST annoys me, but I think I'm in the minority with that feeling.

 

The connection between Rey and Kylo runs much deeper. The dialogue in the interrogation scene in TFA was exquisite. No word uttered or action was aleatory. Both characters discover each other’s Achilles heal while the audience is exposed to their very different temperaments. Rey is direct, sensitive and determined. Kylo is softly spoken, entitled and not used to being challenged. Their interaction is interesting. It is not surprising this is the story RJ was more excited to get to.

 

The scene were he non-coessentially enters her mind, exposing her fears, and weaknesses as she visibly tries to resist? Using the same technique used on Poe earlier to demonstrate exactly how painful it is? The only reason he even cared about her was because she had seen the map and she was strong. Had it not been for those two things, Kylo wouldn't have cared about whether or not she was Force-sensitive, fond of Han, or desperately looking for a place of belonging. Rey was a happy accident to him.
As to not used to being challenged, that's what Kylo spends most of TFA being. He's challenged by Hux, challenged by Snoke, challenged by Lor San Tekka, and then challenged by Rey. He isn't used to being confronted with his fears, true, but he even then that won't stop him from accomplishing his mission.
Kylo is Faux Affably Evil. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FauxAffablyEvil
Kylo is nice until the moment his agenda is threatened, and then he throws tantrums, attacks people, and overall melts down.

But it doesn't matter that RJ was more excited about something I personally saw as forced.* It's that he spent a majority of his time developing that aspect and that alone. And I doubt we'll get to see a rematch of Kylo and Finn (because that's the only rematch I want to see) because the entirety of the Kylo's focus is on Rey. I don't mind that other people love a character I personally can barely stand. I just dislike how Kylo's ONLY interaction seems to be with Rey. It's limiting to both characters, and their emotional arcs IMO are over.

But this is a Finn topic, so we should probably get back to discussing Finn. If you want to talk more about it, we should move it over to the Kylo Ren discussion topic.

 

I believe Avatar was a series with several episodes, wasn’t it? You cannot really compare 2 feature films with a series... The storytelling, script writing and exploration of character are different. In TFA and TLJ Kylo’s relationships with other characters are stablished through dialogue lines and actions: With lar sen tela, Hux. Snoke, Rey, Han, Leia, Luke, ... through his interactions with all these characters we get to know who Kylo really is. The Sen teka scene tells us kylo likes to show dominance and to humiliate, whereas the Snoke scenes tells us he is still a student and is being manipulated. The scenes with Rey make us realise his entitlement and weakness of character in TFA and his isolation in TLJ. Those with Han show that he loves his father, that the dark is almost like a duty to him, and also that he is deeply conflicted. With his mother we see he can’t pull the trigger, showing that he is not a complete monster. But his scene with Luke is the one in which we see him in his rawest state: everything about him here screams absolute anger and disappointment. All these elements are in the films. There is a lot of development and nuance... Kylo is undoubtedly the best written character in the saga.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 21, 2019 ---

Absolutely. Having an understanding of Kylo’s unfortunate state of mind does not force anyone to sympathise with Kylo’s glaring conflict of interest with regards to Rey.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 21, 2019 ---

You not liking what these authors came up with does not make the dynamic between Kylo and Rey forced. What I was trying to illustrate in the post you quoted was how the dynamic between Kylo and Rey was well established in the interrogation scene.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 21, 2019 ---

You’re right. This should be discussed in the other thread.

 

I really really wanted Finn to end up being a Jedi. Still pondering why Maz gave HIM the lightsaber in TFA. Oh well

 

She gave it to Finn because Rey ran off without it when she initially rejected it and Maz new that if Finn had the saber it would make it back to Rey

 

Join the club...A LOT of us wanted Finn to be a Jedi! Just bad writing plus an agenda denied us Jedi Finn!

 

Is this confirmed anyway (Director's edition of the movie, notes, something...)

I keep hearing people say this but I don't know what source they're utilizing to confirm this.

 

What @Jedi MD said, Imo this doesn't need confirmation. Let's look at this that way- Maz is psychic and wise, she figured them both out and knew how the story would play out and that Finn would try his best to get the lightsaber to Rey.

 

To defend himself... it's not complicated. You don't need the Force to turn on a lightsaber.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2019 ---

Uh... no that's just fan speculation. There is a difference between fan speculation and bad writing. It's explained why he has the saber. Whatever crazy "agenda" that's going on in is entirely on you. That's of no fault of Lucasfilm and or Disney.