Main Finn/John Boyega Episode IX Thread

Plus watching John Boyega vs Adam Driver in TFA was so intense and powerful, imagine them together fighting against the KOR, they could have done that fight with beautiful wide shots no fast cuts needed to mask any lack of fighting skills.

I was hoping for that too. It was a bit strange, not even did one of them mentioned it once that perhaps they should try to give their stormtrooper friends a push to make them realize they could break free and join the Rebellion. Ugh.

Right? Like Lando said- we had each other, that's how we did it back then : P

That would have been amazing.

 

I like you guys enthusiasm for Finn, but if he had stood with Rey and Ben against Palpatine with a LS the fandom would have had a conniption. Not all, but some of the fandom that was happy with TLJ, derived that happiness from Kylo's promotion and Finn's demotion as focal points for the story. Having Finn re-enter that spot light as a Force Sensitive AND helping to take out Palpatine? They would have spontaneously self-immolated.

The only way to have that happen would for Rian to know that was the intended course for Finn and have him sprinkle bread crumbs alluding to it. Without some priming for that ending in TLJ, it would probably be hated by anyone who wasn't a Finn fan. Also, if Finn is part of the fight against Palpatine he clearly has to directly access the Force (to confirm the FS), because there's no opportunity to "sense" Rey's death from a distance as TRoS depicted. And the direct access of the Force would probably piss people off too that never wanted him to be FS in the first place. And if he does directly access the Force how do we explain it (since we don't have the dyad deus ex machina to work from as we did for Rey)? Do we just leave it like, "well Broom Boy could do it, so Finn could as well" but never explain why?

 

So...

The wording and implications of the highlighted sentence seems... dubious. For example, whether you feel like anyone needed an explanation for Force Sensitivity or not, Lucas offered it. He also offered an explanation for Force Ghosts in the PT, arguably unprompted. Whether you feel like anyone needed to understand how the Jedi were hunted almost to extinction, Lucas offered it. Luke was revealed as Vader's son after having it previously established that Vader killed Luke's father, and Lucas offered an explanation for it. The Jedi couldn't detect the Sith in the PT, and Lucas offered an explanation for it. I think a basic examination of the SW film history illustrates that explanations for things in SW isn't a new advent...

...suggesting people are looking for their hands to be held if they look for explanations would be though.

 

well, as you said, that's not us. and also, fandom is going to self-immolate over every dang thing anyway, so they might as well do cool and interesting stuff with the characters than just pander to the worst complainers. : o p

 

The movies these days have attempted to expand the dynamics. There's nothing wrong with that. Expanding them beyond what they have already established as norms without explanation is a problem. It'd be a problem in any franchise.

And for the record I didn't say people would need an explanation for Finn's Force sensitivity (because for 1 there's already an explanation for what makes someone FS) I said they would need an explanation for Finn's Direct Force Usage (i.e. a Force Grab as compared to sensing) having never had instruction or training. And I think it's a fair ask. It's not like the same standard wasn't applied to Rey when she started showing off skills that we see Luke and others have to learn through training.

So they offer an explanation for why Rey is able to do as much as she is without training (after the fact albeit), she apparently did a Force Download, because she is a dyad with Kylo. People might like the idea or hate the idea (like Midichlorians) but it's there. If Finn had used the Force directly people would ask, "ok how can he do that?".

I am happy for FS Finn, I've argued for it since the beginning, but, the rules of the GFFA still exist and much of what people dislike about the ST (I believe) is that it sought to expand without ensuring logical consistency. If there is a reason why people like Broom Boy (and others in the future) can use the Force without training, voice track it in. But let's not just say the established past, rules, and lore don't matter.

 

I agree with both of you and it's why I think they should've kept the accidental direct usage of the Force by Finn in TROS. We're well past TFA and TLJ, but I can agree with Lady Musashi that having Finn, at the very least, accidentally force push a door open without realizing it and then being surprised at it would just solidify it. He wouldn't get regulated to Leia type Force User in some people's mind if that is the creative intent for the character moving forward.

However, it would've been a lot better had Finn's character remained consistent and TLJ showed his FS then he could've gotten some tips from Luke or Leia as well then the issue would've been further laid to rest.

 

Seems Rey would've known he was. She was close to him.

 

In JJ and Terrio’s retconned continuity, Leia was fully trained in the Jedi arts to the point of building her own lightsaber and even serving as Rey’s master. There is no reason to suppose then that Finn will be relegated to passive force use just because his force skills in TROS are at Leia’s level in RoTJ ( actually I think Finn is already one step ahead judging from his ability to find the navigation tower, but that is not relevant to this discussion).

In any case, my “ feeling” is that Finn’s FS was supposed to have been further developed in Episode 8 and maybe evolve to some limited active force powers by Episode 9. Otherwise, there would be no point in dropping all those hints in Episode 7 about Finn’s connection to the force. The focus of the trilogy shifted , however, to Rey and Ben as the protagonists with Finn as a side character on par with Poe. And RIan Johnson in particular showed no interest in Finn giving him a nonsensical and useless arc in Episode 8 , in addition to downgrading him actually from Episode 7. I am glad that was partially corrected in Episode 9.

Honestly I don’t know if Disney will ever use Finn again , but , in my mind, it is clear that Finn wants to learn more about the force and I am sure he will be trained somehow.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2020 ---

Still on Finn/Rey, the whole point they tried to make in Episode 7 and, I suppose, in the beginning of Episode 8, was that Finn was not committed to the Resistance, but was only worried about saving Rey. That is presumably why he went to Starkiller base and why he wanted to sneak out of the Resistance cruiser early in TLJ. Then Rose should be the trigger for Finn’s “ evolution”.

Why would Finn put his life constantly at risk exclusively to save Rey ? Unless we assume they had some kind of mystical connection, like the force compelling Finn to serve as Rey’s protector ( which I don’t believe), the logical and easiest conclusion is that he is attracted to her. I guess Disney dropped it because they wanted Reylo to be the center of the trilogy, but denying Finn’s feelings for Rey is at odds with the way he consistently behaves throughout the trilogy.

 

This is the part that will always grate me. I think, beyond the naysaying of Finn-phobes, most people (even people who were neutral on Finn) saw the hints towards Finn being FS. To not follow up on that seems criminally negligent by RJ and LFL for allowing it in TLJ. I know people give JJ a lot of guff for his mystery boxes (hell, I'm one of them) but LFL really owns this mess more than any one director. Rian made the movie he set out to make, full of unjustified subversions. It's almost as though instead of "telling the story he wanted" he deliberately set out to sink every ship he could find, FS Finn being one of them. Other than it appears to be setup to be further explored in TFA, there is no reason for Rian's message of "you don't have to have a famous family name to be important" could not be illustrated through Finn. A force reveal of Finn in TLJ doesn't distract from the main force plot, does not obligate you to insert him in the main force plot going forward, but would have given JJ options of how to develop him further. I think Rian didn't follow up on it specifically because it WAS being shipped. Making him join the Resistance was neither interesting nor terribly creative.

I don't personally believe (as others do) that Rian consciously set out to promote Kylo at the expense of Finn. He certainly did make Kylo the focal point and he certainly did demote Finn, but those things seem to be the result of his desire to do the EXACT opposite of what you'd expect and enjoy.

 

Force sensitivity or not, Finn got sidelined as comedic relief.

The problem is TLJ ignored many aspects of TFA, then ROS ignored many aspects of TLJ.

The trilogy wasn't planned out. But worse than that, each sequel ignored huge parts of the film before it.

As far as Finn specifically, Boyega deserved better.

 

I agree with you. I'm sort of playing devil's advocate for those I know who see it more as Finn being a passive Force user in the vein of Leia in ROTJ. I can imagine them still making that argument despite the revelation that Leia trained as a Jedi in the Sequel Trilogy. Remember, I said, I've seen some complain that Leia trained as a Jedi with no other reasoning than "Leia's not a Jedi!"

This is why I agreed with LadyMusashi because I know there are those out there that even with what we've seen in TROS, they will campaign for Finn to not actively use the Force and remain as nothing more than a FS Trooper Shooter without any creative progress for the character. Not saying a FS Trooper Shooter is inherently bad, they'd just rather he be that sidelined passive FS person.

While I do think JJ was toying with the idea, I think he left it vague enough that it could go either way when he did the hand off to RJ. However, I think if JJ kept the ball and ran with it then Finn would've gained some significance in Episode 8. The fact JJ left it ambiguous despite actively pushing Finn to the forefront in interviews, etc. and not saying much in the "Is or isn't Finn FS fallout debate?" I dunno. I think he had an idea but walked away from it when it was RJ's turn at the helm.

With that said, Rumor mill on the interwebs is that what was done to Finn in TLJ was Ms. Kennedy's interference. However, as Rayjefury said, RJ loves to subvert things and TLJ seemed like that as you put it Ray, "Rian made the movie he set out to make, full of unjustified subversions."

There's also the very obvious reality that Finn was a joint main character in TFA. That got swept under the table somewhere in TLJ as well. Either way, if Finn had been handled better throughout the trilogy there'd be no issue here at this point about his use of the Force.

I agree with this. It was pretty obvious initially that Finn and Rey had chemistry and at the very least, Finn was attracted to her. Even when she didn't reciprocate immediately, it was obvious he went out of his way to try to keep her safe. Whether that was a Force connection and TLJ dropped it rather than explore it further or simply his attraction to her from the start, we won't know. Since, like you said, they went with Reylo and the dyad stuff instead.

 

But apparently she didn't. It's like the argument that if Finn was fs the First Order would have known. These are both assumptions at the end of the day.
Maybe she just doesn't have that ability. Or maybe a drawback to her dyad thing is that while she is uber powerful, she struggles with the more subtle things.

 

I know there was a heavy contingency against Finn being FS at one point, but I attribute that mostly to trolling. By and large (at least here) you don't see anyone rolling on the floor throwing a tantrum because there was a Force Reveal. What I am mainly talking about is a hypothetical where, making no changes to TLJ which doesn't address it, if Finn makes direct use of the Force in TRoS I think some people would protest (and I think they would have standing to do so).

When we see most Force Users in the infancy of their usage, it's largely passive. Luke didn't do a whole lot of direct Force usage in ANH. Leia doesn't do a lot of direct Force usage in the OT. Since there was no allusion to it in TLJ, passive usage was probably the only appropriate way to do it other than some sort of unintended stress response (i.e. reaching for something under extreme duress and Force Pulling it)

And I'll go on the record again and say I don't mind if Finn doesn't become a Jedi. Every Dark Sider wasn't a Sith and every Light Sider user wasn't a Jedi. I'd like for there to be an in-story mechanism by which Finn hones his Force abilities. Whether he gets an old Jedi text, or is taught by another non-Jedi Force User, there should be a logical pathway to him developing proficiency in Force Usage.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2020 ---

It's funny I feel like JJ alludes to Rey wondering about Finn in TFA (i.e. the Escape from Jakku) but this is before she knows what's going on with herself. They both wonder how the other was able to do certain things, but I acknowledge that that's not the same as a FS intentionally and definitively sensing another FS

 

There's always Maz Kanata. She took special interest in him in TFA so there's already some setup, albeit brief, there. I wouldn't mind him being mentored by her. Especially if it gets him away from Poe, Rey and the rest of the Resistance for a while. With the war over there's not much reason for him to be stuck with them all the time.

Simple setups for post ST comics:

1. Rey - Off doing Jedi stuff with her force ghost family mentors
2. Jannah - Off on a search for her family and identity with her mentor Lando
3. Rose - Becoming a more prominent member of the Resistance with her mentor Poe who is also learning to be a better leader.
4. Finn - Off discovering his own identity and connection to the force with his mentor Maz.

Just like that, off the top of my head I've rattled off four distinct ideas that incorporate logical continuations of each character's story. They each, while being distinct, and allowing for interesting progression of each character on their own terms also allow for the occasional crossover.

 

The problem with Maz Kanata as a mentor ((MO) is she clearly states "I am no Jedi" in TFA, establishing almost a de facto second tier of Force Usage. I mean maybe she could mentor him or provide him some historical insight and then send him to find Ezra (or some other Force User not affiliated with the Jedi at the time) to learn more direct usage.

 

The “ how did you do that “ scene with n TFA is actually the strongest hint IMHO that JJ wanted to imply that both Rey and Finn were special and meant to be co-leads in the trilogy. But, then, I guess KK and RJ believed there was no room in the trilogy for 3 force-using leads and that it would be difficult to develop the Rey/Ben arc if Finn had a more prominent role. In a way, I think they are right .

 

Finn was close to Rey, but I don't think the same can be said back. Then again, intimacy doesn't always mean understanding or knowledge. But Finn's caring of Rey is what leads me to think that someone was really pushing for them to be together. Or at least why we FinnRey fans shouldn't be too derided for thinking that he's in love with her.

This is one of the few times where the script could get away with saying "yeah he's a member of our group now." Explain that Rey's joined to find a better understanding of herself, and Finn would join to help keep her safe. This is also why TLJ's arcs fall flat to me. TLJ is two steps back and then two steps forward, especially in regards to Finn and Rey.

AMEN TO THAT. Finn drops everything every time Rey is in trouble. As a guy, I wouldn't - and haven't - done that for girls I wasn't interested in. Family is an exception, but even then you wouldn't go about it like Finn does.