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Main Finn/John Boyega Episode IX Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by DailyPlunge, Jan 1, 2018.

?

Where will Finn be at the start of Episode IX

Poll closed Dec 21, 2019.
  1. A grunt for the Resistance

    20 vote(s)
    20.4%
  2. A leader of the Resistance

    64 vote(s)
    65.3%
  3. A spy

    5 vote(s)
    5.1%
  4. A Jedi student

    9 vote(s)
    9.2%
  1. starwarsforever

    starwarsforever Rebelscum

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    That because you do not understand if he was to save her he would be the hero of the story so forth he would of go through the Hero's Journey.
     
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  2. Veronica

    Veronica Rebelscum

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    I see your point. Thanks!
     
  3. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

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    As Rey grew up in the remnants of a Star Destroyer on Jakku, I would also 'amend' her prowess with the Force and give her tactical knowledge instead. After all, you could have her watch holographic logs of Imperial commanders and build a homemade simulator and play in it in a similar way to the titular hero of Knights of Sidonia (great story, terrible CG animation) as a form of escapism.

    Nagate_immortality.gif
    I could just imagine this version of Rey going up to Armatage Hux and expressing how she admired his father and musing how disappointed Brendol would be in him now and trolling Kylo about his insecurities. The ultimate in wit and repartee. A lash tonged sassassin.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 29, 2020, Original Post Date: Feb 29, 2020 ---
    He certainly did. The worst thing about it is the actor is unlikely to return after this... misuse of his character. There was no exploration of:
    • What it means for Finn to explore feelings he was previously forbidden to explore
    • Any feeling of guilt or uncertainty about leaving the First Order and being forced to fight against those who would be the equivalent of adoptive siblings
    • Self determination and how he would cope, in the First Order everything was decided for him and there would be a degree of comfort in that certainty
    • Initial feelings of purposelessness or isolation, he does not know if there are any like him who can understand his situation
    • Lack of security, in the First Order, there would naturally be contingencies in case of an emergency whereas outside there is not
    I see him doing the following:
    • Establishing new routines: a fixation with cleanliness and order, setting timetables for himself
    • Seeking a new authority figure
    • Importing aspects of that culture- the First Order is something that thrives on discipline
    • People watching and recording observations in a book like the autistic man in Rain Man, perhaps using these notes to engage in mock conversations in the mirror when he thinks nobody is watching
    • Unconsciously referring to people by rank instead of by name when he is particularly flustered or in a hurry
    • Expressing discomfort when placed in different social situations like parties
    Link of interest: https://aspe.hhs.gov/basic-report/p...rceration-implications-post-prison-adjustment
     
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  4. Finn of Ren

    Finn of Ren Rebelscum

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    #664 Finn of Ren, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  5. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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  6. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    "I like this guy"

    More than ever.
     
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  7. Jollylolly

    Jollylolly Rebel Trooper

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  8. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    And here's the full GQ article for context (he goes into his experiences with Star Wars a little more towards the end)
    https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/culture/article/john-boyega-interview-2020

    Edit:
    Overall this was very bittersweet. On one hand, as a black man, a major Finn fan, and someone who has expressed disappointment with LF's treatment of Finn since TLJ (and even gong back to how he was used as a fake-out in TFA), this feels very cathartic and vindicating. John agrees with how the character was treated! That means our feelings are justified! ...right?

    But on the flip side, having those feelings be justified is a sad thing that no one really wants. Boyega's statements make it seem as if Disney wasn't really as progressive as we thought they might be; and their lack of care about Finn, Rose, and others has some VERY unfortunate implications regardless of the ultimate truth or intention. They're getting better, but it's sad that Boyega had to go through such a tough experience for them to do that.

    Overall, it looks like John isn't coming back to Star Wars for the foreseeable future. But honestly, who's surprised by that? John Boyega, Oscar Isaac, Adam Driver, and even Daisy Ridley to a degree have all expressed disinterest in coming back. And to put it bluntly, why would they want to? Either their characters are dead or were used in ways that were unsatisfying to the actors and fans; they have to face extreme amounts of pressure and secrecy for roles that may not scratch their acting itch; and the fans are outright insane.

    Maybe that'll change in twenty to thirty years when nostalgia sets in (and money may be tight), but things that end on a bad note don't always get that benefit.
     
    #668 Use the Falchion, Sep 2, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    tenor (5).gif

    ;)
     
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  10. Trooper

    Trooper Rebel General

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    It's so interesting that there are still people who're trying to downplay everything Boyega's gone through when it comes to this franchise. People are still trying to act like what Star Wars did to him wasn't that bad.

    And I still remember on this very forum how so many fans were gaslighted when they mentioned the bait and switch. How we were dismissed for these very issues Boyega brings up in his interview.

    Now let's wait for the revisionist nonsense about how all these Star Wars fans were "really on John's side and agreed with him" while simultaneously cheering the degradation of his character.

    Oh, and I also love how he brings up the subject of race when it came to how Star Wars treated Finn (or any of the other characters of color) as opposed to how they treated Rey or Kylo Ren. Looks like "colorblind storytelling" ain't so colorblind.

    Oh well, what else would you expect from a franchise that gives more credence to genocidal white dudes than to anyone or anything else?
     
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  11. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    Finn has such great potential that just wasn’t capitalized on. A renegade stormtrooper who might be Force sensitive? Hell yeah, sign me up! Development-wise, I like where TLJ took his character, but if you took Finn out of that movie altogether? Very little would change about the story. At least he was more involved in the main storyline in TROS, even though a good chunk of it was him pining after Rey still. It at least confirmed that he was Force sensitive but they didn’t really do anything with that?

    The biggest missed opportunity of this character was that he never led a full-scale stormtrooper revolution. The alternate Phasma death scene planted seeds for that. It would have deconstructed the most famous fictional soldiers and humanized them the same way The Clone Wars series humanized the clones. That would have been so interesting, and we did kinda get something like that during his subplot with Jannah and her ex-stormtrooper friends but that was ultimately half-baked too.

    Maybe all of this wouldn’t have been so disappointing if they hadn’t built him so much prior to TFA. I can understand why they didn’t want to have him become a Jedi in these movies (we already had Rey, Ben, Luke, and Leia to get our Jedi fix for these movies) but that doesn’t excuse the lackluster way he was utilized after being knocked out by Kylo Ren. I understand why Boyega was so iffy about TLJ, but I feel like TROS handled his character just as poorly (but for the opposite reasons of TLJ).

    I guess all that we can do is hope that LFL will take more care writing their characters in the next set of films.
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I think there's a big difference between what JJ said post-TROS and what is presented in ANY of the films (two of which he made). Finn doesn't really show any signs of force sensitivity until *maybe* the last battle in TROS? It's wildly ambiguous at best on screen. If that's something JJ intended from the jump then the writer and director of TFA should have just made it so, but that goes against the style of mystery box overload he can't get away from. All questions. No answers.

    And yes the actual plot with Finn and Rose on Canto Bight is clunky but it has the one thing Finn doesn't get in the other two movies. Growth. When we meet him in TFA he's already become a defector. We never see him prior to that. He uses Poe to escape. He meets Rey and just kind of orbits her. Nothing really changes for Finn. He still just wants to run away from the FO and chase after Rey. TLJ, actually tries to do things with his character. Whether you think they were done effectively or in an entertaining way is up for debate. But the attempt to make Finn a real character not a 2D side character is there. and then TROS does the opposite. It throws Finn (and Poe) into the main story and they get completely swamped out by the actual two leads. Because that's what happens when you aren't THE lead. Finn stops progressing as a character and just becomes a lovesick puppy chasing after Rey again. And here's where it gets even more murky in terms of force sensitivity. Why would this be a thing he's afraid to tell her? It makes no sense. It'd be a boon to tell her so she's literally not alone. Which is all Rey really wants so it'd be a double win for Rey. So now he's possibly dying in quicksand and he's gonna tell her with his last breath he's force sensitive? Huh. Not sure those dots are connecting there.

    And yes, the fact he never led a Stormtrooper rebellion is one of the biggest missed chances in the series and his dispatching of Phasma does set it up beautifully. Especially the cut version of that scene which is so much better.
     
    #672 RoyleRancor, Sep 2, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
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  13. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    I disagree with you here a bit. To me, Finn already had a major amount of growth in TFA. He went from leaving Rey and running away to diving into the literal belly of the beast for someone. He was brave for her, and I think the fact that he was brave for anyone was a great turn. Heck when Maz first meets Finn she states that he has the eyes of someone who wants to run away. Later on, she states that he has the eyes of a fighter. (If I'm remembering correctly.)

    I understand what RJ was trying to do with Finn in TLJ, but it felt unnecessary to me. I think most fans would have accepted the jump from "I'm defecting from the Empire" to "I'm with the Resistance now. Deal with it." They could deal with Finn's Imposter Syndrome in a separate book or something.

    I feel like if RJ wanted Finn to find a place within the Resistance, then he should have been around the Resistance more. RJ could have even built in Finn's "I'm in this for Rey" mentality INTO Finn's arc. Allow Poe to be the "big idea" guy and let Finn be the "I'm in this for my friends/band of brothers" guy. All of the Road to The Force Awakens material stressed how Finn felt like an outsider. TLJ could have built on that idea.

    The rest of your points I totally agree with.

    When I first saw the movie and before I heard what JJ and Terrio intended on having Finn tell Rey, I thought that his Force Sensitivity and what he had to tell Rey were two completely separate things.
    There were enough hints in TROS (and several in TFA...and one in TLJ) for me to be 100% sure he was F.S. by the end of it. However, I honestly thought what he had to tell Rey was a love confession, and that's why he wouldn't tell it around anyone else. That would at least match his actions within the movies. Finn saying he "knows" Rey, his ability to sense her death before Ben could, him following her even on the Death Star - those weren't the actions of someone who wanted to be "just friends" to me.
     
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  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I don't count that as character growth personally. He still lies to the Resistance to get what he wants which is Rey. He, at no point, makes it a point to actually aid the Resistance beyond what he needs to get Rey. It's minimal movement if any. He's still just trying to get away not fight. He's still just fighting for his own needs and desires of getting away. But that's just my opinion on it.

    I think you could argue it's unnecessary but then almost all of Finn's character growth is done off screen which would be worse to me. For me this all goes back to JJ and TFA offering nothing but ambiguity for the characters. It's all in how you read it. If you work being in it for Rey into Finn's arc, he just becomes Rey's shadow eventually. TLJ was an attempt at making Finn a stand alone character who doesn't NEED Rey to function. He needed a drive and purpose. The whole point of Canto Bight was to set him up with the grudge against people like DJ and those who are taking advantage of the lower classes. As discussed before, a perfect set up for a Stormtrooper rebellion. This gives Finn his agency. Keeping him so tightly attached to Rey kind of takes that agency away from him.

    But even then that's a lot of ambiguous readings of otherwise innate things that, without being told he's FS or looking for him to be FS, mean nothing. He's already been shown as willing to go above and beyond to get Rey. So that's not really a sign of anything other than he wants Rey. Which is my main problem with Finn in TROS is he has no external wants or desires other than those directly related with him being closer to Rey, despite her not reciprocating that.
     
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  15. Veronica

    Veronica Rebelscum

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    He did have a ST revolution. It took me a few viewings to see what he did the way he came up with a plan and a strategy. Personally, I found it more brilliant and certainly nuanced, than him standing before a legion of ST two blasters in hand screaming "Down with the man! " or "Let's kill these _______________!" And just be a cliched angry black (meat head) who thinks with his fists as opposed to his head. Brute force is not strategy.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 2, 2020 ---


    I didn't like TFA, I found FInn to be little more than comic relief and diversity (and FYI I am African heritage) there to fill a quote. Watching him run around after Rey was borderline embarrassing to watch. Yes, she has more life experience than he does, so it makes sense for him to let her take the lead. But for a guy who spent so much time in the military he just came across as desperate, like he can't stand on his own two feet. He needs Rey his crush/babysitter to protect him. Even if he did return for Rey, doesn't mean he cared about anyone else, it was completely out of self -interest.

    What Johnnson did with Finn was show him that he could help and others, as a whole. And I liked it far better than if he had just stayed on the Radus and watched Poe and gotten an epiphany. I understand that the Canto Bight scene had been intended to be between him and Poe. But they instead changed it to Rose. I think it was brilliant him partnering up with Rose, someone who is many ways just as green as he is with regard to how the wider Galaxy worked. Therefore making his changes come from experience (which is how most people learn) than some lecture.
     
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  16. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    We've had discussions on this point, and I don't think it does either of us a service to rehash that.

    I always say that Finn and Poe's arcs should have been switched. Let Poe discover that the war he's fighting is more than just black and white/good vs evil. Let Poe, the ultimate loyalist, fight off against Phasma, the ultimate survivor. Finn has nothing to fight her over - he beat her by virtue of gaining his independence, capturing her, and forcing her to betray the First Order.
    On the flip side, Finn should have been on the Raddus, where there was nowhere to run. Now he HAS to come to terms with the fact that he may have joined the losing side. And with his friends gone, why should he stay?
    It would also justify why Holdo won't give out her plan. She doesn't trust Finn based on his heritage and history - an infinitely more relatable and tangible concept than "you're just a fly jockey. Sit down, be humble." Show how the First Order and the Resistance are inherently different, and keep Finn's motivation intimate. Let Poe fight for some grand ideal, and let Finn fight because he believes in the person next to him. That way, you have the Self with Rey, the Other/Community with Finn, and the World/Culture/Ideal with Poe. Three different motivations, three different characters, three different paths, all united.
    That's the problem with Finn's entire arc in TLJ. Finn doesn't need to know that the First Order is bad. He knows they're bad. He grew up with them, saw them work. In the TFA he saw them massacre unarmed civilians and blow up five planets. It's a reductive argument for him. What Finn needed was a reason to fight for the Resistance that wasn't just Rey. Giving Finn actual bonds within the Resistance would have accomplished this. Rose counts as this, but Rose's point is that "the F.O. is bad and fighting them is worth it." But Finn already knows that. Let's explore why fighting them is worth it for HIM. How many times in a relationship or a friendship do you do something because your friend/S.O. is interested in it? That's what we needed out of Finn.

    Lastly, pairing Finn and Rose solidified a terrible trend that was carried throughout all three movies - Finn MUST be paired with a girl that gives him something he needs, but he can't form a romantic relationship with any of them. In TFA it was respect via Rey; in TLJ it was perspective via Rose; in TROS it was a kindred spirit in Jannah. There is nothing wrong with these things on their own, but they had some pretty unfortunate implications by the end.

    Overall, we have two VASTLY different views on who Finn is and what he should have become.

    @RoyleRancor (sorry I didn't read your post before responding and I don't want to double-post) I don't disagree with the function of Finn's arc in TLJ. I disagree with the formation and use of it. To me it was repetitive, going over information that Finn already knew - the F.O. was bad and it's good to fight them. What Finn needed was a tie to the Resistance that was different than the tie Poe (the idealist) and Rey (the one trying to find herself) had, and that's where his arc missed the mark.

    We also disagree on Rey's involvement in Finn's arc. Having Character A important to Character B's arc doesn't mean that Character A will overshadow Character B at all.

    Aang is important to Zuko's arc in Avatar: The Last Airbender, but there are other factors at play here, and by the end, their arcs are united yet starkly individual. Dalinar plays a large role in Adolin's arc in The Stormlight Archive, but as Adolin moves forward in life, his relationship to his father changes, and so does his arc.
    Likewise, Rey can be in Finn's arc by helping him become who he needs to become and motivating him to be braver than he thought possible and fighting for something other than himself (it's a big change to go from "I'm leaving you, peace out" to "yeah I'm willing to fight my literal nightmare to get us out of this situation."), but she doesn't have to overpower his arc either.
     
    #676 Use the Falchion, Sep 2, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
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  17. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    I agree with the rest of the post, but I believe that were signs of his potential Force sensitivity across both of JJ’s movies. And even if there wasn’t, Leia wasn’t revealed to be Force sensitive until a third of the way through ROTJ, so there is at least a precedence for this kind of thing.
    • The fact that he snaps out of his brainwashing in TFA. The Force is a solid explanation as to why, and Finn says as much in TROS so it’s probably what JJ always had in mind.
    • The moment where Kylo Ren stops and looks at him on Jakku could very well be seen as something Force related going on there.
    • The fact that Finn uses a lightsaber at all probably led a lot of people to believe that he would also become a Jedi. In the films, the only non-Force sensitive characters that wield a lightsaber are Han Solo (for two seconds and he only cuts open a Tauntaun) and General Grievous (who I barely even consider to be a character at all).
    • That scene between Finn and Jannah on the Falcon outright states that Finn believes in the Force and can feel it. It still kind of comes out of nowhere, but there are multiple moments of Finn having quick instincts and sensing things through the Force.
    The worst part about the fact that Episode 9 never really capitalized on the idea of a stormtrooper rebellion is the fact that there were TWO different, easily distinguishable factions of stormtroopers. (One of which got next to no screen time despite the heavy marketing around them and the fact that everyone thinks that they look awesome.) That would’ve been a much more interesting way to use General Hux too; instead of breaking out Finn, Poe, and Chewie and dying like a chump, he could’ve been trying to take down Kylo Ren more forcefully by leading the First Order stormtroopers against Kylo’s Sith Troopers. Finn could’ve led his brothers to fight for their freedom against their oppressors.

    I’m not saying I wanted him to do something big and cliche like that, but Finn giving his fellow comrades the opportunity to fight for a cause they believe in, similar to what Poe gave him, would have been a MUCH more satisfying conclusion to his arc. That would have been thinking with his head, as well as his heart, rather than his fists. All he does in the TROS we got is shoot a bunch of stormtroopers and take down Pryde’s Star Destroyer. That is precisely thinking with his fists (and blaster haha.)

    First Order Stormtroopers were brainwashed into fighting for evil just like he was and seeing them break past their programming would be so much cooler than having the rebels gun down all the stormtroopers for the billionth time.



    @Use the Falchion kudos to you sir, that is a brilliant take right there! I’d never thought of having Finn and Poe’s roles be switched but your reasoning as to why they should have been was great.
     
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  18. Veronica

    Veronica Rebelscum

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    But wasn't that already achieved, when he defected and inspired so many other people to do the same? I found that much more powerful and effective. Than turning him into some Moses or Spartacus like figure yelling to storm to the Bastille! Also one to the great things about the TFO deserters in TROS. Is it makes the characters more human. They aren't stupid and they do think and feel. They are in that predicament because they are forced to. They are not mindless drones. It's one thing to have them act out of fear, because if they don't they or even their comrades will be killed or having nowhere else to go. Than Having Finn just turn into their Lord and Saviour who needs to tell them what to do just makes no sense.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 2, 2020 ---
    Sorry but I find this perplexing:


    How can this be the case when Poe is the son of Resistance fighters and has been brought up knowing their cause, and knows exactly what the war is about? I also am completely baffled about your black and white comment. Where are the shades of grey in the war?

    Except for the fact that life doesn’t work that way, and that’s not the reason for many battles in films . Finn is a human being not an android. Given Phasma’s behaviour in TFA and the TLJ, her snootiness and sadism. I can just imagine the years of needling, the bullying and the humiliations she outright foisted on Finn and other ST. Can you imagine that for years Finn had to swallow his rage and put up with her nonsense? Why wouldn’t he relish the opportunity to strike back at her? It’s no different from Rey lashing out at Ren when she discovers why her parents never came back and she was left to suffer on Jakku. It was 14 years of repressed pain and rage being unleashed.



    Two things. If this is the case then what does he do? Stand in the back and act as wallper? Remember he has no status, while familiar with FO machinery he said that he was effectively the janitor when not on duty. And compounded on that he’s only been with the team for a matter of days. Why would the command team of the Radus want to listen to him? Do you think that if he tried to mutiny anyone would have joined him?

    And second of all was he going to get off the ship? Pilot it?

    Holdo didn’t mistrust or sideline Poe because he was ‘fly boy’ whom she thought was beneath her. She didn’t trust him because he was impulsive and childish. It was due to the fact that Poe was reckless and arrogant and his quest for glory got several people kill. He was more interested in being a hero and his own ego than the long term ramifications of the mission. That was what Leia and Holdo were trying to do-retreat and retrench and rebuild. Poe just wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. Poe showed in his actions that he was untrustworthy. I wouldn’t have confided in him either.

    I honestly don’t know what you’re on about here.




    I thought that it was laid out pretty clearly why he wanted to fight for the Resistance for a number of factors. First when saw the children at the Farrier Race Track being beaten, evidence that Rose’s willing adherence for heroism wasn’t just talk . DJ’s betrayal and the sadism of the FO . And heck maybe even a little guilt from so blindly trusting DJ. After all it was DJ’s overhearing his conversation with Poe that allowed him to know about the transport ships.



    I don’t know how that would have added to the story.

    I think that had the last film been split into 2 films they might have expanded on his relationship with Rose. But it wasn’t necessary. It essentially treats the woman as if she’s prize to be won. I also find Finn’s evolution as a character from a frightened ST to a leader who not only plots strategy, but can be the sober leader whom others look to. Than jut see how many girls he can get.



    I guess we do.
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I don't think it's repetitive because it has a completely different purpose: to give Finn agency not associated with another character. Finn still has no cause besides another character. His entire agency is wrapped in Rey and her acknowledgement of him at this point. TLJ sought to get him his own reason to be a rebel. He can be the hero of the downtrodden. The guy Rose thought he was in the beginning. He makes a clear choice between the DJ lifestyle and being a rebel. Yes he chooses to get Rey over fleeing but even in context in TFA his plan is still to flee after getting Rey.

    I don't disagree in theory except when Rey's story has nothing to do with Finn and really never did. it was a one way street destined to leave him behind. Which is how you end up with Finn running after Rey where what feels like most of his dialogue is just screaming REEEEEEYYYYY!
    It's the difference in Kylo Ren and Rey being on a collision course as their stories are deeply intertwined and Rey and Finn who other than being in close proximity really don't have any story threads together. Things happen to them in close proximity, but it doesn't really matter that they are.
    To put it most simply: Rey does things without the need for Finn in JJ Abrams' movies. Finn does nothing without Rey in JJ Abrams' movies. His agency is entirely tied to her. Hers is not to him. It's unbalanced.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 3, 2020 ---
    Just to go briefly on this, the key is potential. it's all just meaningless noise if JJ doesn't say he is or you don't outright want him to be.
    Each point can be equally countered with a reason he wasn't. Because that's simply JJ's style. He commits to nothing.
    • It could just be has strong will. Those people need to exist in this universe without The Force as a reason.
    • Kylo could just sense his doubt and fear
    • Maybe and it's probably the best argument but there's nothing inherent about needing the force to do it.
    • This is another instance of JJ having his cake and eating it too. It's all a bunch of maybes. He could just be like Chirrut and Jyn Erso's mom. But we never get a real solid anything out of it. It's unfortunate. It could have been good.
     
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  20. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    When? It's made clear from his conversations with Jannah that their rebellions happened at completely different times and they never heard of each other. He never inspired anyone to defect. That's the whole point about our frustration.

    Again, when is it explicitly said that other Stormtroopers defected because of Finn?
    To quote Wookiepedia on the matter, on Jannah's bio it states that
    "She had legendary bravery and athleticism in battle. Finn was pleasantly surprised by her story, as prior to meeting her he was unaware that there were others like him who had defected from the First Order. Jannah and her crew assisted Finn and the Resistance in taking down the Final Order during the Battle of Exegol."

    Their whole bond is because they had similar experiences, not because one inspired the other.
    So...where is Finn's inspirational story that we all apparently missed?

    Our point about the Stormtrooper revolution is like Captain America's speech in The Winter Soldier. It's a call to arms, a chance to do something, but not a demand. THAT'S what we wanted.
    WARNING - MASSIVE WINTER SOLDIER AND MCU SPOILERS





    That was DJ's point though - there aren't any good guys or bad guys in war, and that sometimes the ones who you think are allies are actually just as morally bankrupt as your enemies. It's the danger of the military-industrial complex. Rose's lesson to Finn was that there is evil in this galaxy outside of just the places one can see. To me, that's not lesson Finn needed to learn at that moment because that doesn't work for someone not willing to fight the evil one CAN see just yet. This lesson would have been better for Poe, who grew up with veterans of the war and stories about the Empire and its downfall. Poe, who grew up hearing about the glory of the Poe's focused on "let's take down the bad guys and win this war." But opening his eyes to beyond just the next fight - to beyond the obvious evil to the cruelty underneath - is something that Leia wanted for Poe, and I think seeing the larger scope of war would have helped that.



    The thing is, that's what Finn's encounter with her in TFA is all about.




    Why would Finn need another encounter with her after beating her so thoroughly, not through martial combat, but individual thinking - a thing F.O. troopers aren't supposed to do. Finn denies the name he was given by the F.O. and asserts his own authority. To me, that sounds like a pretty thorough thrashing, even if no fight actually took place.

    And that's the thing with Star Wars. Some of the most resonant moments aren't the ones of fighting, but the ones of winning WITHOUT fighting (which includes denying to fight altogether). To me, this was another one of those moments.


    He watches, he learns, he talks to minor characters like Ko Connix and others in order to connect. He sees families willing to sacrifice themselves for loved ones. He sees true companionship and tries to reconcile how it's so lauded here and criticized in the F.O. That's what he does.

    In terms of listening, you're right, most people wouldn't listen to him. But Poe's friends? I can imagine them giving Finn the benefit of the doubt and trusting him because POE trusts him. Again, that builds the theme of connection and trust, something that Finn is unused to, but unites his new family. (Also in my head, this arc would be more of a "spy vs spy" with Holdo. Finn would assert that Holdo is an F.O. spy because her tactics are traditional Empire and First Order tactics - gather everyone up in one area and then kill them all in one swoop. Thrawn tries it in Rebels, and that was Vader & the Emperor's tactic in The Force Unleashed, so it's not entirely non-canon either. After all, who would know better about F.O. tactics than a defector who risked his life to destroy their superweapon?

    As for trust, who do you think the younger members of the Resistance trust - a guy who helped save them from a planet-killing machine, stood up against the "new Vader," and has the trust of their current hero and best pilot...or the woman who they feel is leading them to their doom? Do you trust the one who took a bullet for you or the one who is seemingly throwing you under the bus? The one who says "screw the rules I'm doing what's right," or the one who says "follow my orders?"

    In return, the surprise about Crait is justified to the audience because it was a hidden rebel base that the Empire - and later F.O. - didn't know about, so neither did Finn.)

    I mean, he DID try to steal an escape pod. But by the time the option would present itself here, Finn would have bonded with the Resistance enough to see the mission through.

    Which was a characteristic RJ bought in for this arc. Before TLJ, Poe was cocky, yes, but he also had a giant heart. Look at how he connects with Finn in TFA. Look at how he inspires people in the Poe Dameron comics released before TLJ. That character is a completely different version of the one we get in TLJ.
    But let's go with the official interpretation - which sounds more impulsive and Poe-like to you - jumping at the chance to save the fleet because you feel responsible for your actions and you want to redeem yourself, or staying put?

    Sorry about that. I'll try to explain it better.

    A person, while viewing themselves through multiple lens, can boil down to about three simple questions: Who am I? Who am I to others/how do I relate to others or my community? How do I fit in the world or how do I relate to the world? Self, Other/Community, and World. I feel like these three important questions could have been the key features of Rey, Finn, and Poe respectively. These questions aren't mutually exclusive, and one's relationship to any of these very much informs the relationship to all of them. But asking that first key question can shape that journey.

    It's easy to spot in Rey, since her arc in the story is literally "who am I." It's a journey of self-discovery, and one we (mostly) delight in seeing. Once Rey finds out who she is (Rey Skywalker, a Jedi) the rest of the pieces fall into place.


    Next up should have been Finn's. Finn knows who he is and knows what he wants. What Finn doesn't have is a place to fit in. This is the journey of Community/Other. RJ tries to do this by having Finn go out on a mission only to find that the place that he belongs is the place that he left. I think it would have been better to struggle within the community and find his belonging there. Once Finn finds that community (a member of the Resistance, not because he believes in their goal, but because he believes in the people (who, over the course of the arc, have shown their belief in him)), the rest of the pieces fall into place.

    Heck, Finn's arc in TROS could have been all about this. Explore Finn discovering the Force and asking where he belongs now. He's trying to relate to Rey, but she's rebuffing him at every corner because she's dealing with her own stuff; and now when he meets Jannah (who for this would probably have to be strictly neutral - a physical representation of the path Finn chose not to take) Finn finds a place where he can truly be understood in a way that the Resistance can't understand him. So now he's torn. Does he stick with what he knows? Does he keep trying to connect with Rey? Or does he accept a new family with fellow defectors? And in the end, have him take a third path by convincing the defectors to join him IN his old family. Or maybe Finn tries to bring that sense of self by creating a new community of people like him via that Stormtrooper rebellion we all wanted and you claim sort of happened.

    Regardless, the theme of Other/Community shines through.


    Lastly is Poe. Poe knows who he is and knows where he fits in. What he needs is a better picture of the world. He needs to see that sometimes the evil of the world isn't always fought in battles. To get his head out of the cockpit as Leia so eloquently put it. Once he sees the injustices in the world and decides to fight those along with the First Order, the rest of the pieces (start to) fall into place.

    That's what I was trying to say. To use another MCU example:

    Peter Parker & Tony Stark have journeys about the self - their big questions are always "who am I?" Tony's most iconic words are answering that question.
    Thor and the Guardians of the Galaxy have journeys about the community - Thor knows who he is and what he believes in, but he needs to know where his people are and how he fits among them.
    Captain America has a journey about the world - His ideals and sense of self have stayed static, but the world outside of him changed. His struggle with that forms the crux of his greatest stories. (Although Community does play a large part in his story in Civil War.)


    And those aren't factors Finn needed. Those were factors that Poe needed. (Not the heroism, but gray morality of the world. and how cruelty isn't just with the First Order.)

    I agree with this in TROS completely, but I disagree in TFA. Finn's agency is clearly not tied to hers once they get to Maz's place. He chooses to leave, on his own agency. He chooses to fight to get Rey back on his own agency as well.

    @The Hero With No Fear thank you! It's the one of the few changes I'd make to TLJ in all honesty, and the best one IMO. (The other major change would be introducing the idea of Palpatine's return and the Sith Fleet during this movie)
     
    #680 Use the Falchion, Sep 3, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
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