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Main Finn/John Boyega Episode IX Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by DailyPlunge, Jan 1, 2018.

?

Where will Finn be at the start of Episode IX

Poll closed Dec 21, 2019.
  1. A grunt for the Resistance

    20 vote(s)
    20.4%
  2. A leader of the Resistance

    64 vote(s)
    65.3%
  3. A spy

    5 vote(s)
    5.1%
  4. A Jedi student

    9 vote(s)
    9.2%
  1. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    This.

    This is why the TLJ arc for Finn was comprehensively underwhelming for me. Ignoring the fact that Rose seems to serve as a Morality Chaperone (for the character that arguably needed it the least), the argument that he needed a reason beyond a person or people to fight just makes no sense. Finn was constantly compared to and said to be the Han of the new Trilogy (I disagree that he was - but it was argued). At what point did we require Han to find a reason beyond Leia and Luke to be involved in the fight?

    I think the argument that Finn needed a reason outside of Rey to fight, employs the Texas Sharpshooter model of painting the bullseye around the bullet holes. Finn ends up "needing" a reason to fight, because that's the story he got in TLJ. It's all retroactive.

    But despite all the problems with his portrayal in TFA, the moments that JJ gave to Finn spoke of a heroic story-adventure that just never came to pass in the following movies.
     
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  2. Kraven Head

    Kraven Head Rebelscum

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    Hence the problem w/ each movie having different writers and directors without a set roadmap.

    Didnt like the Finn character in TLJ (IMO, Finn was relegated to comic relief up until he and Rose were captured.).
    Watching Finn try to desert the Raddus after going standing up to Kylo stalled the character's momentum until JJ somewhat saved it.
     
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  3. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I agree. And I honestly think it hurt the continuity of all the characters (Rey and Poe as well). The only one who emerges unscathed (largely) is Kylo. In the grand scheme of things, Disney gambled with their approach, and they lost. Sometimes you take risks and they don't pay off. As much as I disliked TLJ, TRoS just could not seem to find it's footing in the story it tried to tell; and ends up feeling like the least SW movie of all of them. Not a fitting end to the Skywalker saga at all.

    They all deserved better, but (for me) Finn especially.
     
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  4. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    i’m gonna push back a bit on this and say that Han and Finn aren’t that comparable in their arcs in that sense (and even if they were at the start, arcs can take different paths), and that it did essentially need more of a reason to fight, and not just because TLJ says so, at least in my opinion.

    Han doesn’t decide to stay because of one person. The moment we get a look at it is when Luke talks with him and tries to get him to realize what all they’re actually up against. Han doesn’t just stay because of Luke or Leia, the impression we’re given is that he stays because he does see the reality. But we also don’t see the portion immediately after. We just jump to Han as a commander in ESB.

    contrasted to Finn, when they reach Starkiller, he tells Han bluntly “I’m only here for Rey.” At this point, we’r that, despite kind of helping, he’s really only there for his own personal reasons, and him defending Rey still falls in line with it, nor does it say “yes! He is part of the Resistance now!” When Han tries to say “the Galaxy is counting on us”, Finn’s response is “so we’ll figure it out.” He doesn’t really buckle under Han’s pressing the point, or stop to contemplate, imo.

    So yes, I would still say after that that, even without TLJ, his moment turning on the lightsaber, as amazing as it was, wasn’t the same as Han swooping in to save Luke. It’s a contrast to his running away without Rey on Takodana. This time he stands with her and guards her. It’s not saving the Resistance to give them a chance to take down the superweapon. That part is done, and mostly due to Han’s thinking. This was a battle over a single person. And then he was given that final step in the next film.

    I will agree in that I loved when he ignited the lightsaber. It was epic, and I wanted to see more. Honestly, I think TROS was the bigger disservice to the character, and TLJ flowed a bit better from what we saw, and gave him some good moments. But he felt very backseat to me in TROS, and that was a bummer, especially after the talk with Jannah.
     
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  5. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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    I don't follow. What other reason could he have had to fight? And how was it that he did not have a heroic arc in the trilogy?
     
  6. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    Here's one for all the Jedi Finn fans out there. Rey is training Finn

     
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  7. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    To be clear, I wasn't the one making the argument that Finn and Han should be seen as the same. This argument was argued by people who were principally invested in Finn not being FS, and using the character parallels as academic cover to advance this argument (i.e. Finn is like Han, and Han wasn't FS, so Finn shouldn't be FS). What I pointed out then (as now) is that it was intellectually dishonest to argue that Finn had to march under the banner of "The Han Solo of the Sequel Trilogy" and then to pick and choose where it applied.

    Also to be clear, I think it's subjective to say that we "collectively" get the impression that Han gets a bigger picture. He seems principally animated (the entire original trilogy) by his relationship to Luke and Leia and his own dealings within the galaxy. I would argue there is very little evidence in-universe in the OT that Han has taken up the cause as a true believer; he's there for his friends. Even after his "about face" in ANH where he saves Luke, by ESB he is leaving the fray to deal with a personal matter (his debt to Jabba). When the ST picks up we see Han had gone right back to his trade of choice, even with the threat of the First Order looming; he wasn't in the trenches with Leia. He had to be convinced by Maz to go back to talk to Leia, which arguably was only facilitated by his meeting Finn and Rey. He wasn't self motivated or compelled to go back to the emerging fight. And we don't question it because, that's who Han was.

    But again, I'm not arguing that Finn and Han were the same, just noting that if you did argue they were the same, you have to reconcile with the inconsistency of suggesting Finn's arc was justifed in TLJ because it gave him a more weighty reason to fight when Han never had one.

    Setting all that aside, even if you don't make the argument that Finn is Han (and I don't), even if you make the argument that Finn fighting for his friends isn't enough (and I don't), I would still argue that it was a mundane step forward, and one needlessly (and artificially) stretched across a feature length movie because the writer didn't know what to do with the character or how to develop him further beyond that decision.

    No one now says, "why didn't we see Rey wrestle at all with why she wants to be a Jedi?" It's still a legitimate question, TLJ could have been dedicated to telling that arc, but because it's not what happened in the movie, no one is retroactively arguing why it had to be done. It didn't have to be done. It could have, but it examining Rey's connection to family was also a legitimate focal point. We skip over the question about her desire to be a Jedi without ever answering it, and no one suggests it hampers her development; it's something we can surmise on our own.

    It's the same with Finn. If we see him at the start of TLJ making no attempt to abandon the Resistance, no one would question it. It wouldn't need to be fully spelled out, most of us would believe (and justifiably so) that Finn made his choice of who to fight with and fight against by the end of TFA with the LS battle in the forest, and there was no need to relitigate it.

    But that would require the writer of TLJ to say what should come next for Finn. And (as many of us suspect) not having an answer, he chose to amplify and stretch a minor development into a larger moment to forestall the discussion of "what was next" so that he didn't have to answer it. He left it to the next writer to figure out what that was. And those writers failed (predictably) because they hadn't been given anything to work with, no setup, no motivation, no narrative threads to carry through and close.

    Finn igniting the LS was the definitive indicator of the seismic shift within Finn. He began the movie terrified by Kylo and running to the outer reaches of the galaxy to escape the First Order. By the movie's end he is back in the heart of the First Order and facing Kylo Ren; unafraid. Compare that to Finn in TLJ correcting Phasma with, "Rebel Scum" as our audible clue that Finn has now decided to join the Resistance. There is nothing that even comes close to Finn's LS ignition moment in TLJ or TROS.
     
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  8. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    My apologies for seeming as though I was saying you held that stance of Finn = Han. I misunderstood the flow of the conversation there.

    I see where you’re coming from. I don’t fully agree, but I do see your points, and they’re good ones. It seems to come down to how we see that lightsaber moment (which without a doubt was epic and a big shift) and if we buy RJ’s start that he still only cares for Rey.

    I think one point I disagree with more is the idea of Rian not having an answer for Finn so he stretched out a minor detail to stall the “what was next” question. Personally, I felt like it was one natural path that could have been taken, given the time frame RJ wanted to work with, and it very much fit a “what was next.” It didn’t feel like a minor thing to me, though I can see why others may feel it was. Maybe there was an interview where that was brought up, but idk. Was it necessary? No, but I felt it worked. I enjoyed watching him commit.

    I think the bigger disappointment for me as time goes on is..why did he wait until a near-death experience on Pasaana to start to say anything about being Force Sensitive, and then not say it when they aren’t dying (despite Poe right there). I honestly don’t get why Terrio and JJ danced around that so much.

    like I said though, I do get your point, that the arc wasn’t necessarily..necessary.
     
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  9. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Rey does mention that there's something inside of her that has woken up, and she wants to figure out how to handle it. But I agree with nearly all of your points, including this one.
     
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  10. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Ok one more clarification on my part, I don't think we have to "buy" RJ's start that he still only cares about Rey. It is something Finn de facto states in TFA; Rian is not distorting that at all. The question is, is the compelling story, is the next major step forward worth following (and worth dedicating a feature length movie to) one where Finn doesn't simply fight adjacent to the Resistance, but decides to fight as the Resistance. To me the answer is a definitive no.

    To me it was underwhelming and uninspiring; bereft of any real significance or even a single iconic moment that will be thought of nostalgically years from now. I'm sure the "Rebel Scum" line was supposed to be that moment, and that just sort of drives home of how thin and unimportant the storyline was. I don't believe it advanced the main storyline, and as evidence, I think after the movie if you ask why his decision to formally join the Resistance mattered, there is no answer. Not in TLJ and not in TRoS. If you ask, what does Finn do next as a result of the decision, you are similarly left with few answers.

    What was always telling to me? Was that after TLJ when we postulated here about some of the potential things that could happen next with Finn, almost none of it had to do with anything that happened in TLJ. I never even saw someone go for the "low hanging fruit" of, Finn should cross paths with DJ again and have that confrontation. No one cared (and it's the pivotal interaction that Finn has in TLJ).

    TRoS is a movie (I would argue) that is hamstrung with not much of a story left to tell and obliged to provide compensatory fan service that either has no setup or defies the existing set up (see Rey's parentage). It was going to be bad, and the mini-mystery box of "what does Finn want to tell Rey" is just part of the parcel. It was unnecessary and ultimately silly, and perhaps an attempt to leverage the talk about a Rey and Finn romance. It serves very little purpose in the movie.

    Now of course, if you enjoyed watching him commit, I don't think it's something that's up for debate (you get to like what you like). For me it falls flat, is unimportant (to the character, the story, and the galaxy) and makes him a "nothing" burger. But I assert this as my opinion, not fact.
     
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  11. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    i see where you’re coming from. When I look at Finn from that perspective, I get it.

    Definitely agree on the TROS stuff though. I think JJ could have found something better for Finn, but didn’t. In hindsight, I really hate the “I have to tell you something *before I die.*” like..why is it such a secret from Poe as well? I liked the idea of him being a General, but I wanted more build-up to it.

    We both like what we like and don’t like what we don’t, and I’m glad we could have this chat.
     
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  12. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Indeed. I will say, I was never keen on any of the SW movies just randomly making people Generals in the Army. It's not something that was invented in the ST or TRoS, the franchise has always done it, and it's never really made sense to me. So I'm not necessarily picking at Finn for being conferred the honor, it just seems...

    ...off. I have never been a fan of that aspect of SW (that and the muted sense of mourning when people die, TLJ is the only movie to actually get that right with Rose mourning her sister).
     
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  13. Trooper212

    Trooper212 Rebel Official

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    There was no precedent set for it, it was only there so the writers could say he "ranked up" in some way. Poe's promotion made sense, Finn's didn't.

    Same reason Finn apparently couldn't be involved with anything Rey related after TFA. Regular people apparently can't relate to or understabd force users because....reasons, I guess.

    That's because getting that rank is never shown to actually matter. What changes about Finn's role as a result of him being a general? Nothing. Poe at least was groomed to succeed Leia. Then again you could argue that they both don't really get a boost in importance on screen because Rey arguably gets treated with the deference worthy of a general more than they do.
     
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  14. Finn of Ren

    Finn of Ren Rebel Commander

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  15. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    In ROTJ, it comes off as an honorary title more than any kind of rank. ‘You’re commanding troops? Well, I guess that makes you a general now . . . congratulations.’ The moment in TROS though plays more as another reference than anything particularly organic to the situation. ‘Hey, remember when Han and Lando were suddenly generals before the final battle? So do we!’

    It comes off a touch more ‘official’ in ROTJ because the Rebellion is far more organized and regimented than the Resistance. When Lando and Han are identified as ‘generals’ there’s an implication that the leadership probably gave it some thought first. Finn just seems like it’s handed to him by his buddy who happens to be the boss. ‘Oh, by the way, we're co-generals now.’ ‘Cool . . . I guess.’
     
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  16. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    That's a really good point. I didn't even consider the comparison!

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. They wanted to "give" Finn importance without understanding or making him work for it, which devalues the thing in and of itself this time. Had Finn been in charge of troops at the beginning, lost them in a battle or something, and then been redeemed by Poe with some sort of heartwarming speech and a promotion...we still would have given it the side-eye TBH, but it would have had some narrative and thematic resonance. Had Finn been in command of any type of troop or really had any meaningful interaction with the Resistance before this moment, it would have made sense.

    The same goes for the Force Sensitivity. It makes no narrative sense and seems to be there to relate back to Rey instead of being used to deepen Finn as a character himself. How interesting would it have been to have Finn working with his nascent powers and trying to connect with Rey, while she's off figuring out her own stuff? And then you could have Poe, who knows Leia is/was F.S., and feels like that Finn could make a better leader than him, and trying to promote Finn to General to do that, only for Finn to refuse that, saying that being F.S. didn't matter when Leia picked Poe as her successor; besides, Finn needs to find his own path.


    The Force Sensitivity - despite how much I like it - is the same way. Finn is given something so Lucasfilm can say "see, he can be a Jedi in the future! He's a general! We didn't forget about him!" And that's a dangerous rabbit-hole for them to go down.

    Overall, there are a dozen different paths they could have taken with Finn, each one more interesting than the lazy "you're a general now" path they chose. Heck, at least if they promoted him off-screen, we could have probably gotten a cool book out of it...
     
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Storm trooper rebellion was right there. Finn leading an army of ex-troopers. New name. Dedicated to preventing child soldiers throughout the galaxy. Helping tear down the order from the inside.
     
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  18. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    Blame it on the badly execution that people missed it, that there actually was a Stormtrooper Rebellion taking place in Tros. I mean, JJ didn't dive into it much.

    Jannah dropped the info that they were deflected stormtroopers only after Finn directly asked her, or at least it came off like she didn't plan to reveal to them her past. It was more like one thing led to another.

    And then we never got to see a reaction from the stormtroopers that were fighting on the Side of the First Order in Tros. They didn't know who these noble warriors were, right? If one want to show a Rebellion on screen, than one should also include the Stormtrooper take on the Rebellion and what Impact that has on them seing their former collogues fighting now on the other side.
     
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  19. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Technically, wouldn't that have been before TROS, since Jannah and Co. had already defected by that time? Especially since it looks like they had been defectors for a while now.
     
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  20. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Yeah, this is one of those technicality situations. ‘People wanted Finn to lead a Stormtrooper rebellion, right? Well, those are rebel Stormtroopers and he does lead them. So, teeeeeeeeeeeeeeechnically you got what you wanted, yeah?’.

    Which, of course, isn’t the spirit of that desire. Folks wanted Finn to be an active aspirational figure who would inspire other troopers to reject the FO like he did. Not stumble onto a group of nomads who just happened to also be former troopers. Former troopers who followed him into battle because . . . well . . . I’m not really sure. Because Jannah taught him to ride a horse? They had nothing better to do?
     
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