Main Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Episode IX Thread

As explained in the video I shared before, redemption is not about "justice", or "deserving" salvation, or about "being worthy" of forgiveness. It has nothing to do with the law or with societal conventions. Redemption is an interior process of “remorse”, "atonement" and "forgiveness." If Kylo confronts his crimes, acknowledges his wrongdoings, and is capable of forgiving himself for them, perhaps even living on and making amends, his redemption will be a fact. In redemption arcs villains turn good in spite of what any other character in the story thinks.

Another thing is the audience not finding a character’s redemption believable or interesting. That’s fair enough. To bring up “justice” in a redemption arc is like calling the police when you find out your partner is cheating on you... That is not what the police is there for.

 

I understand that some people want their villains to have more longevity... or villains that are attractive, youthful and strong to be unrepentant, or villains that are “moral” to be destructive in spite of it (like Thanos, apparently, as I haven’t seen Avengers). I even understand that the journey from evil to good can be read as weakness, particularly in a male character, like an emasculation, because violence is often associated with virility and power... And of course there is something alluring about villains that are on the fence, that sometimes are good but never completely commit to leave their evil ways. Every soap opera in the 80’s hinged around those characters and that premise...

But I often feel that people in their hunger for this kind of unapologetic villains is too quick to dismiss Kylo’s possible redemption as something unwarranted, or as Kristian Harloff wants to call it “lazy writing”... *eyeroll*

 

I've briefly mentioned this in one of our podcasts, but I'd like to see something like the following:

Filled with shame, Kylo/Ben would come to terms with his faults at the end of IX, and retire to somewhere very remote to allow time to properly reconnect to the light side of the force. Ben would be helped by force ghost Luke and force ghost Anakin with this reconnecting - which wouldn't be an easy task my any means. The scene wouldn't necessarily need any words... just great acting.

 

1. He murdered Lor San Tekka
2. He murdered his father, Han Solo
3. He massacred an unknown amount of Jedi apprentices
4. He ordered the killing of all the residents of Tuanul
5. He was an enabling and complicit party to galactic level genocide

And then there is the attempted murder of Finn, the idolatry of another mass murderer Darth Vader (not Anakin), the torturing of Rey, the likely long list of evil exploits with the Knights of Ren that we know nothing about, and on and on.

He has also ignored chances at redemption at many of those moments. His father offered him this. Rey offered this. Kylo rejected both.

So, its not really like calling the police when you find out your partner is cheating on you. Its more akin to calling on the heavens for lightning when you are confronted by a serial killer.

Can he be redeemed?

Yes, of course. But much like Vader, he can only be redeemed in the eyes of himself and possibly those that love him unconditionally. Remember, Vader is still hated by Leia and a majority of those in the galaxy. It is only Luke and Anakin that have spiritually resolved Vader's actions. So, yeah, Kylo can be redeemed within himself, likely with Leia and Luke's ghost, and possibly even with Rey. Outside of that it aint gonna happen. And the only way he meets that threshold, imo, is through a selfless sacrifice to save others that results in his death.

This isn't a cry for "justice", it is a requirement for his atonement.

 

As I said, justice has nothing to do with redemption. You may enumerate the murders Kylo has committed all you want but that will bear no relevance if he ends up feeling remorse and leaving his evil ways behind... Redemption is an interior process not something exteriorly offered. A villain may reject to go through these process many times before he finally engages in it.

And I would not describe Kylo Ren as a serial killer... His pathology is completely different. Serial killers are characterised by not feeling empathy or remorse. It is evident Kylo Ren feels (or has the potential to feel) both.

All redemption is "within oneself", and if the audience feels that a villain in a story is truly sorry, that villain is redeemed. The impact of his redemption may be close or broad, may affect a few or many, that will depend on the story, but the redemption is still the same. As for atonement, the character will decide, of course... And let's not forget that not all sacrifice means death, and that sometimes the best reparations are done by the living.

 

this. in a huge way.

part of the wound left by Vader is that he died rather than did any real work to atone for his crimes.
all that power could have been turned to great purpose.

with Ben, i'd like to see that narrative played out (even if it's in the EU, if the film just cuts to credits with victory or whatever).
a lot of Leia's suffering was the direct result of her never reconciling the truth of her father.
if Ben lives, it would be an opportunity to heal a lot of wounds.
and again, put his immense strengths to the service of good in the galaxy.

 

I am not referring to justice.

There is a very basic relationship between atonement and redemption that I do not feel your point of view is considering.

For me, it is simply not believable that given the multitude and gravity of Kylo's sins that he can find redemption without an equivalent level of atonement.

The Hebrew translation for “redemption” comes from the word "padah" which means “ransom, buy, release;
to cause the freedom or release of a person from bondage or ownership, often implying a delivering or
rescue of a person in distress." It can also be rooted to the Hebrew word "ga’al" meaning “to deliver, save, avenge, buy back; to remove an object from a dangerous situation as an extension of being redeemed from indenture or slavery”

Note how both refer to a payment of some kind in order for redemption to be available.

“Atone” or “atonement” is rooted in the Hebrew word "kofer" which loosely translated means “to cover”. If you have "covered" your sins, you have atoned for them. Kofer also means "ransom" or "payment."

A payment must be made (atonement) before the sins are released (redemption).

You cannot have one without the other. So what is Kylo's payment?

For some of us, he is too far gone for his atonement and subsequent redemption to not include his death. Is it possible his atonement would be greater alive - possibly - I get that. But only so much can be accomplished in one movie, and honestly he has not had enough screen time to establish his current internal demons and conflicts to get me on board with this angle.

 

A great way of payment (and also a way of redemption) IMO would be the following scene:

Rey dies. Kylo uses all his powers (maybe he gets helped by some force ghosts) to bring her back. He succeeds, but with a price. He loses the ability to use the force ever again. Now he isn't special anymore, at least in his own mind. Remember, Kylo makes a big deal about himself. So, what would be the biggest payment for a "narcissist"? Exactly, showing him that he isn't special after all or taking away what made him special.

Here you got it. A payment which isn't death, but still feels like Star Wars.

 

You mean like he gets force drained?

 

I do. My point is that all atonement is character driven, in the sense that it is the sinners themselves who take charge of how to repair for their sins. This agency is part of the redemption process of an individual. Justice however is an exterior factor, a world factor. Justice and the world may condemn Kylo and Kylo could still be redeemed.

--- Double Post Merged, May 16, 2019, Original Post Date: May 16, 2019 ---

We agree. The difference I think is that you’re viewing atonement as something imposed by an external god or a standard procedure whereas I view it as the self imposed penance resulting from an act of contrition.

I’m not into the “eye for an eye” philosophy which underlies Abrahamic religion, which is why I, personally, don’t think that Kylo’s reparations need to include his sacrificial death. But indeed it will all depend in how the story goes and how JJ and Terio let Kylo decide how he should repair his evil deeds.

 

On a very basic level, I don't want to see a repeat of the ending of ROTJ because that's been done already.

I want redemption, but I'd like to see it end on better terms, in some way or another.

 

I've been thinking about why the mask is fixed. It can't be because of sentimental value. There's a reason. According to rumors/leaks

Spoiler

Kylo is at a castle and some creature fixes it. The KOR do some type of ritual after it is fixed. So there is a reason he needs it. And it has to do with the McGuffin/goal/quest

 

Here's a question to ponder, in all the official marketing (it's the teaser and Vanity Fair; which isn't much I know) have we seen Kylo with his mask on? So I think repairing the mask is ONLY a Knight of Ren issue. We already know that Kylo is not the one that is repairing the mask.

 

This is what I'm trying to say. I think it's fixed for the purpose of the KOR and thier quest or whatever. NOt for himself. But no he didn't wear it in the teaser or any pics yet.

It must be later in the movie that he wears it. Like maybe the 2nd or 3rd act.

 

We have seen him with the fixed mask.

Here:


and here too:


This are pieces of the official Marketing. You can buy these posters.

Spoiler

The leak suggests that Kylo and his KOR are storming this castle at the beginning of the movie. They kill every single one of the people there except for one monkey creature to fix the mask. So it's definitely Kylo's will here.

I also think the mask is the MacGuffin here. Maybe as long as Kylo is wearing it, he becomes stronger with the dark side because it's obsessed by evil forces (Vader or Palpatine).

 

To be fair, that mural is no indication that is meant for IX (look at alive Luke) and Lucasfilm never officially announced that poster. So, it's not official marketing.

 

That mural shows all movies in chronical order and Luke isn't even part of the TROS panel. It's definitely meant for IX.

 

The far right side of the mural is for TROS. They wouldn't put Kylo's mask back together and not have him wear it. Let's be honest, there are always small variations of a characters costume in each film in order to differentiate and sell new merchandise. He will wear the repaired mask.

 

Prior to any of the leaked character stills, the mural, and the trailer, MSW reported that Kylo would have the repaired mask and even described it accurately. I would say it is safe to say that Kylo will be wearing the mask at some point in the movie