Main Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Episode IX Thread

To the other thread we go!

I compare the two because Zuko is the best example of redemption and character development. They could have easily had Kylo follow a Zuko arc. RJ chose a different direction - which is fine - but if we're gonna talk redemption we better talk about the best done one.
You're right, we see all of this interactions. But most of those are in TFA (Lor San Teka, Hux, Snoke, Rey, Han, Finn, Phasma, and even Poe). By the time we get to TLJ we get to half of that (Snoke, Rey, Hux, Luke). THAT is my problem with TLJ.

As for complete monster, he absolutely is. He led the massacre of multiple populations (talked about in Resistance, shown in TFA), tortures people, throws tantrums, willingly participated in the destruction of 5 planets, and murdered his father. Just because he's conflicted doesn't mean he isn't a complete monster.
His isolation in TLJ was manufactured to give him something to related to with Rey. Between that and their powers and a short bond with Han (and then Luke), they have literally NOTHING in common. Kylo wasn't raised on a junk planet. Rey wasn't groomed, despite knowing what is right and wrong. Kylo wouldn't go back to his family given the chance (quick note - he was given the chance). Rey didn't willing commit massacres on innocent populations. Kylo could have been talking to the KoR during TLJ so at least we could get a sense of who they were before TROS instead of being completely absent. Rey could have talked to Chewie or potentially even someone from the Resistance. Kylo doesn't wonder what his place in all of the surrounding events is. Rey doesn't have anything to feel conflicted over. Kylo had to pretty much push his family away from accepting him; Rey's is never coming back. Their isolation was manufactured to give them something to bond over. Forced.

I never said I didn't like the connection. I said it was forced (because, remember, IT LITERALLY WAS FORCED BY SNOKE) and forced to the point of exclusion of other relationships and parallels I personally found more interesting, and it's over. I've repeatedly said at multiple times that Rey, Kylo, and Luke is one of the few aspects of TLJ I wouldn't change.
And pushing any of relationship between them in TROS outside of strictly business partners at best is still forcing it. People want Rey to redeem Kylo. Why? Because she saw good in him? Kylo is committed to the Dark Side, and unlike Vader - who felt like it was too late for him to change - Kylo knows it's not to late but doesn't want to change. He killed his father, his (abusive) mentor, tried to kill his uncle (twice), and nearly killed his mother. And for none of it he shows remorse. When he reached out to Rey - after just threatening to kill her - she closed the door, metaphorically and physically. Their relationship is done. She ended it. It should stay that way, and opening it up is forcing it.
You want Kylo and Rey to interact, that's fine. But what does she gain from their interactions? Answers about her family that she already knows (and that might feel more like retcons than anything else)? A sense of place in the fight? She now has the burden of the Jedi on her shoulders. That should be good enough for her. A community and bonds? How about Finn, the man who risked his life to save hers and whose entire goal throughout most of TLJ was to make sure she had a safe place to come back to? What about Poe, who knew who she was at the end of TLJ, signifying Rey had a place and a home and a people? What about Leia, who gave Rey a shoulder to cry on at least twice (and seemingly a third time in TLJ...and each time about a member of her family...hmm...)? Knowledge that can be gained from talking to Force Ghost Yoda, or Force Ghost Obi-Wan, or Force Ghost Luke? Closure about the events happening? Closure comes from the self, not other people.

But you're right, Kylo is a nuanced character. I won't deny that. But I won't deny that I also really hate him either. Not for his nuance or because he's evil - I can appreciate other characters like that, like Killmonger from Black Panther or Thanos from Infinity War and Endgame*. My hate for him comes from how I see the world and how Kylo becomes the manifestation of certain problems and aspects very similar to things I hate - WHICH IS ENTIRELY ON ME. But I can't ignore that either, especially if those problems are pretty stinkin' accurate (I've talked about it to friends and family in real life and they legitimately see where I'm coming from).


My fear for Kylo isn't that he'll be forgiven - I frankly expect he will. My fear is that he'll be forgiven and we'll be lead to believe that means redemption. My fear is that we'll never see Kylo pay for the actions he's done but at the end of the movie one good act will magically solve all the problems. And that's not how forgiveness always works. And if Star Wars is going to go forward and keep talking about how it's all about forgiveness and redemption and love, it better start showing us some consequences.



*Thanos is more of an inversion of Kylo in many aspects.
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@Use the Falchion

I don’t think that Kylo and Rey’s connection were forced. I explained before how, I don’t see anything contrived in a writer making two very different characters interact and finding something in common that makes perfect sense character wise and story sise. I also find it confusing that you wouldn’t change the interactions between Kylo and Rey and at the same time complain about them being “forced”... My question is: wouldn’t the fact that you enjoy these interactions in TLJ be proof that this development is not contrived and has been earned somehow?

I understand why you have such strong feelings against Kylo. A character like his does get under our skin. He is bullying, destructive, cynical, entitled in ways that we recognise in the real world and we find unpleasant. On the other hand, however, his evident signs of conflict force us the audience to ponder on the reasons why he turned evil, and to acknowledge that he is first and foremost a victim of grooming.

As for having Ben Solo pay for his actions as Kylo, I suppose that will be something built in in his redemption arc, if there is one. As we all know, there is no redemption without atonement. So JJ will have Ben Solo deciding the way in which he’ll repair the damage he’s done, like Vader did.

 

@Kylocity thanks for understanding my feelings.

As for Kylo and Rey's interactions in TLJ, I can enjoy it and feel that it's forced. It's not a binary either-or situation with that. The same way people can still enjoy bad or incredibly cheesy movies.
In turns of grooming, that makes Kylo sympathetic, but that doesn't absolve him of his actions or behaviors. Han gave him the chance to walk away. Rey gave him the chance to walk away twice. Kylo knows what he is, and he's owning it.

The thing is though, do you really think that TROS will show Ben Solo going around repenting for his actions? Or do you think that he'll ride off into the sunset (or die) because he made one good choice at the end of his life? And if they do show it, will it be on the big screen for everyone to see, and not simply in a cartoon or book for the hardcore fans? Vader didn't repair any damage he did. He made one good choice and left. He didn't mentor Luke, ask for forgiveness to Leia (arguable the person hurt most by his actions), or apologize for the trillions of people he hurt over the years.

A character can do things out of love and still be wrong and not deserve our sympathy.

 

ultimately whether we feel sympathy is a personal choice. i can no more convince others to feel sorry for him than they can convince me to not feel sorry for him. doesn't really have anything to do with deserving or earning.

same as redemption; how we feel about him is irrelevant to whether he sees the error of his ways and amends them.
only Ben can make Ben whole again. we get to choose whether we support that, but how we judge him doesn't actually matter to his fate.

Ben has twice rejected sincere offers to help him out of his situation, and twice distrusted or felt betrayed by those offers.
he's not in a position where he's ready to listen or believe. the most pernicious part of grooming is seeding so much doubt and distrust that the victim can't make sensible or rational decisions. we literally see this play out with Ben over and over.

maybe the third time will be the charm. or he will die in the Dark clinging to his anger and his fear.
my bet is on the former; the latter doesn't strike me as the ultimate message of Star Wars. : D

 

Yet, arent you of the opinion that atonement is purely internal as you stated in previous posts? "Repairing the damage he has done" would then be repairing the damage he feels he has done to the point that he is okay with it.

When the other poster states: "My fear is that we'll never see Kylo pay for the actions he's done but at the end of the movie one good act will magically solve all the problems. And that's not how forgiveness always works. And if Star Wars is going to go forward and keep talking about how it's all about forgiveness and redemption and love, it better start showing us some consequences." in other posts you would determine this to be a call for "justice" and not "atonement."

Just pointing out that if you state a narrow definition to guide a discussion, you need to be as precise as your definition.

I feel that atonement extends beyond oneself and you have stated previously that you do not. Use the Falchion clearly does not feel that Kylo feeling good about Kylo is enough to atone for his past actions.

This is the line that Kylo's character is toeing and he does not, to this point, have the same level of empathy built-in to his character as Anakin/Vader did. Anakin tried to save his mom and wife at all costs to him. Vader could not kill his son either. Kylo, meh, not so much.

Its gonna be a lot of development in this movie in order to get me to the point that I find his redemption arc both believable and acceptable. A lot of time was wasted in TLJ, imo of course, that could have been better spent in this regard.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 21, 2019 ---

Well, sure. But how we judge his character arc matters because we are the audience and the target of the story. So his amends do matter to more than Kylo. I would also argue that atonement requires a reconciliation between the Force and the populace through Kylo, thus involves external factors, acceptance, etc.

This is kinda my main issue with Kylo (and I enjoy his character too), but as point out he has not progressed at this point. I would even observe he digressed in TLJ, obviously very intentionally as well. That leaves a lot up to the last movie, which will likely be splitting time with Rey and Co.'s journey.

 

But the fear is that we WON'T see that. We'll see him start to feel good about himself - we'll see self-forgiveness but never atonement. And that's NOT the full picture of redemption. An important step, yes. But as important as the first step is, the next step is the most important. And I doubt TROS will show us that. Will it show us how heartbroken Kylo's mother is over his actions, even if he returns to the light? Will it show him trying to teach the ways of the Jedi once again, only to be rejected (or even worse fail to prevent his own students from falling like he did) due to his history? Because those are the real challenges one has to face on the road to redemption. Not every bridge can be rebuilt, and THAT'S where self-forgiveness comes into play. But to only show one aspect of the journey cheapens the whole thing.

Thrice. First with Han, which he decided to reject in the moment. The second two with Rey (one in the elevator to Snoke, the other after they take out the Praetorian Guards). The only times he felt betrayed by the offer was when Rey rejected his own offer. The other time he felt betrayed was when Force Projection Luke appeared.

We see it play out in one scene and TOLD it over and over. We saw more grooming with Anakin over the course of AOTC & ROTS than we have with Kylo. And that's not counting the grooming done in TCW either.

 

Yes. I remember that discussion and yes, there is a distinction between atonement and justice. The terms of Ben’s redemption will be set by Ben, as he is the person making the reparations. Hopefully this reparations will satisfy the audience, if the story heads in that direction.

 

while i totally validate your fear in that regard, i don't share it.
i agree with you that Ben has a hard road ahead. i also don't pre-judge him because we don't know yet what choices he might make and how it could play out.
what you think is necessary and sufficient for Ben's redemption may not be what he believes is necessary ~ and for me personally, i'm only interested in what he feels is necessary. the world will judge him regardless. he has to live with himself.

eh, i don't know that the offer in the elevator is any different than the offer after the fight. she's asking for the same thing twice.

from my perspective, it's really something to be measured like a competition. abuse is abuse.
my point is that there's a reason he's making bad choices and incapable of making good ones in the moment.
i'm not excusing the bad choices themselves or justifying them.
as you mentioned before, what's happened to him doesn't change the impact of his choices on others.
no amount of mitigating factors changes the impact.
Anakin has his own trauma to work through and Ben will have his.

i think he has progressed, though. he has killed his abuser, he has confronted his former mentor (who he feels betrayed him), he has made a connection with someone in the Light who he regards and could potentially trust (though he doesn't yet), he has also, as is typical of someone coming out of a traumatic situation, gone two steps forward and three steps back (all that rage on Crait). but our final image of him isn't that: it's him looking up in a shaft of light. it's Ben in a position to reflect on what's happened. what he's done, what his choices have brought him to, and what he's lost as result of all those choices.

so yes, it feels like he's not make progress perhaps (and even gotten worse), but hitting bottom is where he probably needs to be right now.
he's finally "free" of his oppressor and now it's on him to either wallow in self-pity, rage, and fear, or...rise. : D

 

Its like beating a dead horse, spinning in a circular motion, its like poetry, it rhymes... these films rhyme, in the ESB Vader asks Luke to join him, in the second installment of the beloved trilogy; In the second installment of the Sequel Trilogy Kylo asks Rey to join him... so he would have to potentially trust her in some capacity, to ask for her hand in partnership... therefore, it is inevitable for Kylo Ren to be redeemed just like Vader... unless JJ decides to subvert exceptions, just like RJ did with Luke. People love Vader, People like the bad boy type... I get it, but like so many have alluded to TROS will be ROTJ 2.0... end of the Skywalker saga....

GoT and Star Wars so closely connected... If Han is Rey's father, I called it, like years ago... Luke and Leia locking lips... Kylo and Rey.... OY VEY...

 

And that someone closed the door on him both metaphorically and literally. She gave him her hope, her faith, and a chance. He let her be tortured and then didn't stop trying to kill her friends (which included his own mom). He then has a confrontation with his former mentor (which you're right is an important step) where he immediately threatens to kill Rey. And then puts on a pouty face right after when she can hear him? No. If Kylo wants to reach out, she has no obligation to answer, and I hope she doesn't. It wouldn't be satisfying for me - their arc together is over. Rey has nothing more to gain from Kylo or Ben other than a platonic relationship AT BEST. There is no secret, no technique, no hope, no family, or anything else can gain from talking to him.

I don't think Ben's the type of person to really reflect on what he's lost. But we'll see.

And I'm interesting in what gives the audience the most catharsis and what is the most fulfilling. And him deciding "I'm sorry, I'm good now. Let me do my One Good Deed." and everyone else going "okay we forgive you, now run off into the sunset" doesn't really feel satisfying.

You're right, but in the language of entertainment, showing gets you farther along than telling. People don't feel a character is really that cool unless they see them do something cool. You don't feel a character is evil unless you see them do something cruel or unnecessary or evil. Just saying "he's using you" doesn't paint a story. To your point TLJ painted a better story about what happened and Snoke's relationship with Kylo, but by that time Kylo's character was set and it felt far more retroactive.

AND THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO SEE. When Kylo (or for the sake of this argument, Ben*) faced with the reality of the people he's hurt, how will he react? THAT'S what I want Star Wars to show. And given that we're dealing with a certain villain's return, I doubt we'll have time to see it.

I've said it before on a different thread I believe, but I'll go see it and I won't judge the movie beforehand. And I REALLY hope it proves me wrong. But I'm not letting my guard down and I'm not getting my expectations up.

*I also really hate the divide between Kylo and Ben. I understand that names give power and identity and all of those things, but "Kylo" can't do anything without "Ben" already wanting to do it. Acting like they're different people - while a set expectation in Star Wars - really is only another layer of justification and excuses to hide under.

Anakin is dead and seemingly isn't coming back. He didn't have to work through any trauma for his redemption. He's basically a Karma Houdini.

 

Right before Rey enters her escape pod / sarcophagus, she ask Chewie to relay a message to Finn, Chewie is the only one that truly understands Rey and Finn's relationship.

Chewie gives a suggestion, and Rey agrees fully. Satisfied, Rey enters the pod/tomb, on a deadly mission.

Chewie was also the one to tell Rey that it was Finn's idea to rescue her when the Resistance had more pressing matters at hand, for one destroying SKB.

For me, Rey was on a mission similar to James Bond; for Queen and Country; or in Rey's case to save the Resistance and the galaxy. Bond would bed or torture any number of bad girls that he encountered along the way, for Queen and Country.

I see the same for Rey, before she set out on her mission to confront Kylo Ren, as she told Luke; Rey would do anything that she would need to do in order to change Kylo Ren to Ben Solo, and when she failed to change him, she took off with the Lightsaber, salvaging the failed mission.

 

Oh sorry I understand your take now. You thought it was bad, but you enjoyed these interactions anyway. I get it.
You see, I never underestimate my gut feeling like that. If something resonates with me, I always think that someone had the talent to make it so, even if many consider this something I liked trashy... If I didn’t think that way, I would have never admitted being a fan of SW in real life lol, because, well, a lot of people my age and gender really do not get it and dare to think it’s utter rubbish. Plebs. :eyeroll:

 

yeah, but doors close, doors open. the movie isn't over. Rey is right to reject him. he's a mess. it's not her work to do. it's his.
i think it's interesting i wrote he was looking up in a shaft of light and you respond about Rey.
i said he's reflecting on what he's lost. so obviously we agree on that point for the moment, but that's not the point i was making.

yeah, he gave her his hope, his faith, and chance too. she promised to help him, but she only wanted to help herself and the Resistance. he has a perspective too in this, even if he's wrong. she didn't respect that. she didn't respect him; she expected him to just come over to the Light and do what she wanted--he told her in the elevator what he believed, but she wasn't listening. so it's not really fair of her. they were both very wrong to think that killing Snoke was just going to magically make everything all right.

and maybe that's all they need from each other: two people who are very strong in the Force, who can understand one another in ways other people can't. and i disagree that Rey has nothing to gain; she wants that too. and hope. hope is always to be gained.

i think he is. it think he's doing it right now.
i actually think he feels loss more than most.
have we seen Poe atone for getting his whole squadron killed?
other than looking sheepish, getting slapped and demoted, he learned his lesson without a whole lot of sackcloth and ashes.
and that's fine for me; Star Wars has always had its broad-brushed strokes.
but i think Ben has always been thoughtful on the other side of his rages.
how many other characters talk to their grandpa? cry to their fathers? break down when visiting their father's spaceship (okay, scene deleted, but it's in the book and it's canon). and that's just TFA. in TLJ, he's very thoughtful. some say he's "plotting" or "manipulating"; i see him trying to puzzle things through. trying to understand Rey, trying to understand how he can get out of his situation, then losing his focus when he doesn't get what he thought he would (not an usual reaction for someone who has so much power and yet has been powerless for so much of his life).

you can't control what the audience wants or feels, you can only experience and own your own response. you and i don't really want really different things for Ben necessarily, but we do seem to want/need really different things in terms of how it's ultimately expressed in the film; one of us isn't going to get what we want. but what an interesting conversation it makes for! : D

for myself and others, it was well-planted in TFA.
maybe it's requisite to have the experience of being used by others to know how cruel and revolting that truly is.
when Rian Johnson posted to twitter that Ben was relatable, people came after him because "well, i never murdered anyone so i can't relate."
but that's not what Johnson was talking about.
he was talking about loneliness, isolation, the feeling of neglect, fear, anger, separation, and worst of all: hopelessness.
that hopeless that Ben conveys to Han on the bridge when he says: it's too late.

i wouldn't mind seeing that either, but it won't bother me if we don't. atonement for someone like Ben is going to be a long process (maybe life-long). i can't reasonably expect the movie to do all that. maybe the EU can fill it in, but as far as the movie is concerned, i only hope to see him get on the right path. that's the first and most important step without which the rest of it is moot, yeah?

i hate the divide too. Kylo Ren is a lie. see my signature. : D

 

But that is actually quite a lot to gain... “A platonic relationship” is a few notches above “camaraderie”, which the word that has been used, very self consciously, in the VF article...

It’s been hinted that there might be an alliance between Kylo and Rey against “a greatest evil.” If that is the case, there may be things these characters would want to discuss... As Daisy Ridley would say, “we shall wait and see.”

 

Or maybe he will turn back, but it will be too late. He may have to sacrifice himself. That would make sense to me. But I guess we all have to wait until December to find out!
Nooooooooo!! Lol

 

Are the people who say Kylo Ren/Ben Solo shows *no* remorse watching the same films I am?

Look at his face when Han falls off the bridge. There are tears running down his face when he's holding Han's dice and looks up at Rey during their last force bond in TLJ.

If you don't like the character, that's fine, but let's be serious. He's a conflicted mess that already told you he's "being torn apart".

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2019 ---

Adam Driver's a very nuanced actor; he doesn't make facial expressions he doesn't mean to and you're expected to read into that. Just because it isn't the spoken word doesn't mean it didn't happen or doesn't count.

 

Oh, he is remorseful for sure. But remorse is defined by feeling sad, depressed, hopeless, and unchanged.

He has not shown any capacity for change in this regard . . . yet . . . and he needs to change before he can progress, atone, and repent.

 

Of course not, that's work for the third act.

 

But there was a glimpse of change: He did not kill his mother when she was in the line of fire... The seed of change has been planted. It may not flourish but it’s there.

 

I think even the novelization suggests he would have taken out the two TIE's but was caught of guard(?)