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Mando is losing its luster for me

Discussion in 'The Mandalorian' started by Jayson, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. Darth KreVass

    Darth KreVass Clone Trooper

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    Not to say you can't take SW serious, I mean take SW as serious as you want. But I agree, for me it's the fantastical escapism that I need for a lot of reasons.
     
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  2. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Trooper

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    I've read through your lengthy discourse on Din's helmet removals and have to strongly disagree with you.

    First, there was a clear story arc to Mando's helmet removals over the course of the two seasons which you either failed to address or didn't see. The first time the helmet is removed (in S1:E8) gives the audience the clear sense that Din would rather DIE than have anyone remove his helmet to give him medical aid. If you ask me, that's as strong of a position as it gets. It was only after the droid emphasized the he was 'not a living person' that Din relented.

    The second time (in S2:E7) shows the audience how dramatically Din has changed over the time he's been with Grogu. When pushed to the limits (again), THIS TIME he's willing to sacrifice one of the key tenants of his religion if it meant saving Baby Grogu. This was a highly emotional moment -- and if you've ever watched a Mandalorian fan reaction video, you know what I'm taking about.

    The final time (in S2:E8) was the absolute perfect good-bye ending for Din and Grogu. If THAT was not great 'theatrics,' I guess we disagree on what the term means. Great writing and acting is all about creating a strong emotional response from the audience. Most fans admit that this particular scene was a highly emotional moment for them. Was it lessened because of what happened in the previous episode? I say just the opposite: It strengthened it because it completed the story arc and created a classic reprise of ROTJ's Father & Son moment: "Let me see you with my own eyes."

    When it comes to pure theatrics, I would argue it's hard to find a better example in all of the Star Wars films than the ending of Mandalorian: The Rescue.
     
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  3. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I didn't forget.

    It's simple to quantify.
    There's more theatrical energy in a reveal that shows itself to the audience the first time over the same exact reveal, but the audience already has seen the object before.

    Rewind to 2.7.
    Do everything exactly the same, but don't show us. Go ahead and have Mando show the other characters, but don't show us.

    Now go to 2.8 and do everything exactly the same.

    If your position is that the reveal now doesn't hold more energy that the reveal is now also the audience's first time, then yes we simply disagree.

    I disagree that 2.8 is some of the best examples of theatrics in all of Star Wars.

    I'm quite pleased it was a fun ride for you. :)

    Also, again...my problems with Mando are not the helmet reveal. It's not like I can go edit 2.7 to hide Mando's face from us and suddenly the issues I have that caused me to be bored through 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 2.6, 2.7, and 2.8 will go away.

    The reveal was but one element of one example.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  4. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    Mando has lost its Muster for me :( and I reckon season 3 might be cancelled.

    Such a waste.
     
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  5. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    One side character? What?:rolleyes: Mando S3 begins shooting next year after Boba Fett. You're being delusional if you think one side character is going to cancel S3.
     
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  6. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Trooper

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    You've gone to great lengths to address some of your issues with the story - yet you are willing to overlook a huge plot hole for the sake of a more 'energetic' final reveal?

    We need the 2.7 reveal to show the audience how much this tough bounty hunter has changed over the course of his relationship with Baby Grogu. The reveal in The Believer episode shows us that Mando has gone from a willingness to die to follow the code to a willingness to ignore the code in order to save the Child. Without that important story arc, you'd be saying that the 2.8 reveal was 'illogical' because Mando is breaking the code...for a little peek-a-boo?

    Thanks to 2.7, the audience understands that Mando has changed so that the final reveal is all about the love between 'father' and 'son,' period, without people like the two of us trying to overthink it.
     
  7. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    Calm down, after all its my loss not yours.
     
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  8. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    But what makes you think S3 is going to be canceled over this?
     
  9. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    Mando books getting cancelled, backlash against Lucasfilm etc.

    But hey I've been wrong before
     
  10. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    The audience seeing the actor's face is not required to communicate everything needed in 2.7, and not seeing the actor's face does not present a plot hole.

    A plot hole is a gap in a narrative which goes contrary to established logic.

    Absenting a camera shot in place of another camera shot while still telling the same sequence of events is not a plot hole.

    You're reacting as if what I wrote was that Mando should never have taken off his helmet.
    That's not what I wrote.
    I wrote that the audience should not have seen his face until 2.8.

    And again.
    This is far from my primary issue.
    It's the issue I mentioned that everyone else is the most interested in.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
  11. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Trooper

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    You mean like an action that goes contrary to the show's established logic that Din would rather DIE than reveal his face to another living being? :)
    And I wrote that if the audience did not see him reveal his face in 2.7, Din's helmet removal in 2.8 would have had some fans grousing about how completely illogical it was, given what we know about Din. However, 2.7 removed that plot hole (you know, something contrary to the show's 'established logic') by having Din demonstrate he was willing to break the code in order to save Grogu's life.

    Hey, you're entitled to your opinion. That's totally cool. I simply wanted to make it clear that there are compelling reasons to view the situation very differently from the way you do.
    I'll get to them---give me some time, I just joined the board. ;)
    Cheers.
     
  12. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I never said there weren't.

    You'll get to know me. I'm not an absolutist and I write with the general disposition of people around here knowing the general angle and approach I'm coming from as a lover of the art of cinema, and not as some content fascist dictating what absolutely is and isn't permitted or allowed to be enjoyed.

    That would be a gap if there wasn't a scene showing him progressively working up to that point.
    Again, I never once said the scene should be removed.
    It is absolutely impressive what can be accomplished in cinematic storytelling without showing something you intend to be the subject of focus.

    It's not unfounded, nor unfamiliar in the language.
    You're positioning as if what I'm referring to is tearing out the scene from being in the screenplay. That's not ever what I stated.
    The articulation of how it was done, however, is what I take umbrage with.

    In fact, if you look over my issues, it's all to do with the articulation and not the content itself.

    You can show him remove his helmet without showing his face. You don't have to remove the scene.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
  13. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Let's hope you're wrong again! ;)
    Mando is Lucasfilm's one profitable product at the moment. Maybe Obi-Wan will deliver. Maybe the Jedi: Fallen Order sequel will be better than the first game. And sure the schedule and plans look nice, but we all know what they say about plans*, and we've seen the plans of other such companies fail...heck, we've seen Lucasfilm's own plans change drastically. Right now Mando is all they really have to connect to the mass audience, and I highly doubt they'll let it go.
    Is Lucasfilm overreacting by cancelling the book and visual dictionary? Absolutely. But Disney has been known to overreact, so it's not surprising either.

    Honestly, I think Lucasfilm would get more backlash if they stopped the Mandalorian than if they continued it.

    As for losing luster, I can't really help. When Star Wars as a whole lost its luster for me, I took some time away from it for the most part and thought about what I wanted from the franchise and why I felt as upset as I did. Ultimately, I ended up having to change my entire view of the franchise along with my level of interaction with it while also searching for what fed me what this franchise frankly couldn't. And I think I'm in a better place because of that. Maybe doing the same will help you?


    *Either "man plans, God laughs" or "the best made plans/schemes of mice and men often go awry," would work.
     
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  14. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    Woah there.

    I like Star Wars, love it even, but I don't let it get in the way of my life. I'd be in the exact same place in my life if I completely abandoned Star Wars as I have far far more pressing matters and struggles that I face daily. Star Wars is a luxury and an escape for me, but in the grand scheme of life its not important just the same as any other work of fiction.

    If I like something I'll say so, likewise if I don't, that's just how I am and its gotten me through a lot of blast in my life and I'm quite happy, if you have a problem with that then I really can't help you. ;)
     
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  15. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Trooper

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    Cool, good to hear that. You'll have to pardon this board newbie but "The theatrics were poorly played," did seem rather absolutist to me. ;)

    A person can love the art of cinema without trashing a scene that other 'art of cinema' lovers would consider well-crafted and executed. I get that it didn't work for you but literally hundreds of Youtube fan reaction videos make it crystal clear it was a highly emotional moment for most fans.
    Ah, but I would make the counter-argument that showing Din's face being scanned in 2.7 was what made that scene so dramatic and emotionally powerful. Pedro did an amazing job in that entire cafeteria scene of communicating the vulnerability he feels without the helmet on. Keeping his face hidden would - IMHO - have ruined the scene. Pedro's face is what gives the scene its dramatic juice.

    Again, I don't expect to change your opinion, but others -- including people who love cinema and the art of movie making -- can respectfully disagree with you.
     
    #55 Darth Derringer, Mar 14, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
  16. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    That's fair! My point was just that if it's become less of a luxury than it has been in the past for any reason, sometimes taking a step back to analyze why can be helpful.
     
  17. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    My opinions are often absolutes. That doesn't mean I believe there is but one absolute position objectively.
    That is, I am a subjective absolutist.

    That people reacted to something well doesn't mean that it is as refined as it could have been.

    I disagree.
    There are scores of cinematic manners to show vulnerability without the face. Lucas did that with Vader plenty before the mask was pulled off, and that was through a ton of plastic.

    That's to say nothing of the entire toolbox that is cinema. You can make a walkway something to sympathize with by the way you block, frame, light, lens, and edit it.
    Lucas, for example, conveyed an entire emotion of vexation and performance stress in a film that doesn't have a single line of dialogue, characters interacting, and hardly any real expressions crossing the actor's face - which was mostly obscured or not even shown most of the time. And he did this as a college student.

    For example, and I'm not here to rewrite the scene, but you can actually show vulnerability in just a hand. You might read that and think that's bananas, but it's absolutely true.
    If you want to do it, you can make a simple hand a very intimate and vulnerable moment.

    You really don't need to show a face to have that scene accomplished just as well. Nothing in a film is there because of need.
    It's because of want.
    That something is there is a need, absolutely. But how it's there is not a need - it's a want.

    Every storyteller is playing a game. A 'stupid human trick' game. Like a high-wire performer or soccer/football. They are creating an artificial set of restrictions and boundaries around themselves that makes it hard to do a simple thing, and then they try to make their way through that simple thing which is now complex and tedious because of their restrictions and boundaries.

    It's entirely up to them as to how their boundaries are set up to get out, and how they get out is equally up to them.
    If they do something it's because that's what they wanted to do, not because there was absolutely no other possible way it could have been done to the same quality of caliber.
    If that were true, it wouldn't be an art. It would be a science and a scene's methods would be akin to just taking a measurement and reporting the output.

    So, yes, it could have been done without showing his face.

    However, that's really not interesting or even the primary point of why it's losing its luster for me.
    It's not like I watched 2.7, saw him take his helmet off, saw his face, then saw 2.8, saw him take his helmet off again and that was what did it for me.

    Hardly. I was already checking out back at the last three episodes of season three.
    There's a ton of very cool stuff going on in those episodes, but it's not refined tightly to the principle theme and contrast.
    It's lots of showy stuff that's really super cool looking, and it dramatically moves its tempo well through it so that it doesn't drop its quality of engagement as a form of visual media, but it doesn't stick to the thematic prose consistently as its focus and instead allows itself to wonder off into side tangents that are cool ideas and concepts, but which either do very little to sticking to a cinematic style that is locked to the onset narrative theme as it's focus.

    The tonality of the story we're telling radically changes in both seasons from the opening to the end, and I'm not talking about narrative arcs. I'm talking about cinematic tone and style.

    Above all, I'm referring to what that tone and style is focused from.
    The reason that motivates what to focus on and how to phrase it.

    In the first half of both seasons the primary focus tends to overwhelmingly be motivated by Mando almost exclusively.
    But he final three of either season, that focus slips a bit and it starts to be motivated by a want to show "cool stuff".

    For example, as I brought up before, the way that Grogu having the Dark Saber hanging over him was positioned made more focus on the threat being that it was a Dark Saber that made everything dangerous rather than that it was that Grogu was a hostage.
    It's not that there wasn't any focus on Grogu as a hostage, but it was quite openly less of a focus than the fact that he was being threatened by a "Dark Saber".

    The entire episode of 1.6 really highlights this very well, actually, and yes, I'm very well aware that a lot of people thought that was a really bada** episode.
    It was. It was a brilliantly bada** sci-fi episode, and it would be a brilliant show...go do that show. But it was a very forced intrusion into the form of this show and out of step - like a really bada** drummer just soloing out of nowhere and going off on a tangent with some just brilliant kicka** stuff. Cool, but Joe...we were in the middle of a song.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
  18. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Typo.
    Season one.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
  19. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    I already know why, i have my reasons and it won't stop me enjoying the stuff that I like :)
     
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  20. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Trooper

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    Funny thing, I look at the same tonal and style changes between episodes that you see and consider them as one of the show's biggest strengths.

    Jon Favreau once said in an interview that in creating a new Star Wars show, he chose to go back to George Lucas' original influences for inspiration: American westerns, samurai films -- and those old Saturday afternoon matinee popcorn serials. Therefore, the changing styles (based on the script and the director) were intentionally designed to give us that 'old movie serial' feel. However, what I find really amazing about the show is that -- thanks in large part to the amazing technology they now employ -- each of these episodes have their own unique, big screen, cinematic feel to them.

    I get that you would have preferred one consistent tone and style throughout all of them. Again, it's perfectly fine for you to feel this way. But with all due respect, a season of The Mandalorian was never meant to be viewed as a feature film .
     
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