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Midichlorians worse than anything in the ST

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Lock_S_Foils, Dec 7, 2020.

  1. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    Midichlorians get a bad rap in my opinion. For the majority of my Star Wars loving life I absolutely detested them for many of the reasons already listed, I felt like it sucked the magic right out of Star Wars. Even as a kid and obviously ;) knowing that the Force wasn't real, it was a blow to find out that even if it was real, I would need something special in my cells in order to use it. But now... I don't know if it's just time healing the wound and taking the edge off or if it's something else but my opinion definitely has softened.

    Plus...

    WILD HOT TAKE ALERT:

    I think at times, the way the Force is described in the OT is way too simple. So simple that it's honestly a bit unbelievable that there's so few Force users in the Galaxy. In its own and much different way, it kinda also takes the magic away.

    I think there should be a medium. Something that makes the ability to harness the Force exclusive to a very select few, but that something shouldn't be able to be tested in a lab or on a computer.
     
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  2. Klabauter

    Klabauter Clone Trooper

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    That is actually a very good comparison! Everyone has Midichlorians and therefore could technically use the force. It simply comes easier to those with a higher M-count. Same goes for music in the real world. Everyone can make music, but some people simply are more talented or "better equiped" for the task (e.g. born with Absolute pitch or Synesthesia).
     
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  3. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Well, it's no different then: "the force is what gives a Jedi it's power. It's an energy field created by ALL LIVING THINGS. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together. " So technically, everyone has midichlorians. I think George just gave it a name.
     
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  4. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Force Attuned

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    just like genes
     
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  5. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi General

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    To paraphrase Obi Wan, midichlorians were a great addition to the story, from a certain point of view. Once you're done laughing please consider this:

    The PT is a cautionary tale. It's a story of how even good people with good intentions can do really stoopid things once they've convinced themselves that they're good and the other guys are evil. Midichlorians are part of the Jedi's failure.

    One can't measure the mystical. It's absurd to even try. You'd never use a stopwatch to measure your happiness, or a Geiger counter to measure your love, or a microscope to gauge your fear. You just feel these things. So when we see the Jedi try to measure young Anakin's sensitivity to the Force it's a metaphor, a clue to the audience that the Jedi have lost their way. They're trying to measure the Force because they can no longer fully experience it. Measuring it is the best way they have left to understand it now that their ability to feel it is waning.

    So they measure it and codify it and build a religion around it, not understanding that their dogmatic approach to the Force is weakening their ability to experience it.

    Luke's explanation to Rey about what the Force is and why it's vanity for the Jedi to think they somehow "own" it really makes clear what the Force is. The idea of midichlorians make clear how little the Jedi actually understood the Force and why their ability to use it diminished exactly when they needed it most.
     
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  6. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    Great thread. I appreciate everyone’s opinions and thanks for keeping it civil.

    But I am still firm in my opinion of MC’s. Terrible idea, George.

    Let me piggyback on @eeprom ‘s thoughts. I always thought George wanted to create a space fantasy, right? So why did he introduce MC’s and try and turn SW into Sci-Fi?
     
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  7. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    The simple answer is that George is a revisionist, and his ideas and revisions reflect his interests. He was interested in microbiology and whatnot around that time, IIRC, so he put them in. (He did balance it out with with the Living Force and the Cosmic Force, showing some restraint.)
    Storytelling-wise, it makes some sense though. Lucas wanted to add the Chosen One/Messianic mythology to Star Wars and needed a way to signify to the people in-world that "he is the Chosen One." But if all of the Jedi have access to the Force, how do you single out one really powerful one? One way is to have them do impossible feats. Another way is to introduce a sort of "stat analyzer" and use that; and that's what George did. "But wait," you may say. "Doesn't this ruin some of the mysticism of the Jedi?" Absolutely, but then you can use that disillusionment to explore how the Jedi of the time failed, trying to categorize what really shouldn't be categorized. So by introducing one controversial aspect, you've solved your narrative problems, introduced a structural failing of an in-world establishment, and added a cool sort of explanation for the magic (which has been a growing trend in fantasy as a whole), and can put some of your interests into your work. That seems like a solid trade-off to me!

    To the larger part of the argument itself, I personally don't see the problem anymore, but I have gripes in the past and do understand the sentiment. To me, as others have said, Midichlorians are like genes or talent in a way of speaking. I read them as an indicator of potential, not power. (The above argument helps rationalize it too!) We never saw Anakin/Vader do the things that we've seen Kylo or Luke or Ezra or Snoke do. That doesn't mean that their Midichlorian counts are higher, simply that they're more in-tune with the Force than Anakin was.

    It's like a talent - some people are more naturally gifted at playing the piano or playing basketball or dancing than others. But if someone like that doesn't train, focus, and open themselves up to what may be instead of what people say is, then they won't be as successful as the hard-worker who does all of that. It's a starting point.

    But really, how many times have Midichlorians been brought up? Two, three times across the entirety of the movies and shows? TPM, The Mandalorian, and I think once or twice in TCW...
     
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  8. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    TLJ with the simple line "That might Skywalker blood" which is clearly a midichlorian reference without using the name.
     
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  9. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?
     
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  10. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    Ya' know, I'm "neither here nor there" on MC's...

    I DO understand Lock's viewpoint about rather having had the Force remain a mystical thing...and to a point, I agree with him...it's the Force..."Mystical"....

    On the other hand, having Qui-Gon explain the concept of MC's to little Anakin did almost make the Force something tangible and understandable...maybe not so much the Force itself, but HOW and WHY a being is receptive TO the Force.

    Like I saw in another thread; Consider MC's as a radio antenna and the Force as the radio signal....the bigger and better the antenna, the better the reception.

    To me, the Force is still something mystical. I personally just thought that the concept of MC's lent an explanation as to WHY certain beings were more attuned to it than others....better hardware!! ;):)
     
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  11. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    “[The next three ‘Star Wars’ films] were going to get into a microbiotic world,” Lucas told Cameron. “There’s this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force.”

    Elsewhere in the conversation, Lucas admitted, “Everybody hated it in ‘Phantom Menace’ [when] we started talking about midi-chlorians.” In terms of his storytelling, Lucas regarded individuals as “vehicles for the Whills to travel around in…And the conduit is the midi-chlorians. The midi-chlorians are the ones that communicate with the Whills. The Whills, in a general sense, they are the Force.”

    Lucas is confidant that had he kept his company, the Whills-focused films “would have been done. Of course, a lot of the fans would have hated it, just like they did ‘Phantom Menace’ and everything, but at least the whole story from beginning to end would be told.”


    https://www.indiewire.com/2018/06/george-lucas-episode-vii-episode-ix-1201974276/

    George, as much as I love you and your vision, you really went off the deep end here.....The understatement of the century is "of course the fans would have hated" a trilogy of movies set in a microbiotic world with MCs....
     
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  12. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Agree.

    Midichlorians was just one of the big deceptions that I had with the Prequels, unfortunately.

    And I think the way they brought back Palpatine in the Sequels is the weaker point of the Sequels.
     
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  13. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I always thought that was a reference to "The Force is strong in my family" instead of Midichlorians, but I can see where you're coming from!

    Fair point!
     
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  14. Midi-Chlorian

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    The question remains though: how else would you take the story forward? One thing the ST did seriously wrong was not brining anything new to the table.

    As for now the saga is pretty much like this:

    Episode I: The foundations for a dictatorship and the failures of a single man are laid. A period piece about corruption wherein an innocent child named Anakin is taken from his mother at a young age to become a Jedi knight. The child tries to find comfort in the father that Qui-Gon Jinn is to him. He also tries to find a new mother figure in his life and thus seeks comfort in Padmé. At the same time nobody trusts the young child: Obi Wan is jealous of him; Mace Windu doesn't trust him; the jedi order feels awkward. The only one he can turn to is his playmate Jar Jar Binks -- a life form that just like Anakin himself is "pathetic" in the words of Obi Wan. After the death of Qui Gon all Anankin has left is his jealous brother.

    [​IMG]

    Episode II: About bad relationships and the reasons for aggressive negotiations. Anakin is being all pathetic throughout this criminal drama/romantic soap opera. His missings, longings and feelings of not being loved but rather mistrusted have turned him into a neurotic teenager with lust for power. Once more he loses his mother -- and this time it is forever. He knows he should know better: he knows he should not feel pleasure of possession nor should he feel anger.
    The question remains though: why are the Jedi not allowed to have feelings? And why is the Jedi holding Anakin back? What is wrong with turning to the dark side and explore what the force can do? Anakin is right all along. He is the jedi who does not want to be good. After all: good is just a point of view. Because of the Jedi's dogmatic mindset Anakin is developing a bad relationship with Padmé wherein Anakin's fear of losing Padmé is driving him to become an abusive lover.

    Episode III: In which Anakin is given an offer he can't refuse. This is the greek tragedy, the great peripeteia in the the history of cinema. And this is also the one in which the ways of the force is the most evident. It's like the force and the midichlorians are greek gods which influence the divine destiny. Palpatine and Anakin are on a quest searching for the great powers that has been forgotten while the Jedi order is wandering without focus in the mists of the Clone wars.
    The true champ in this tragedy is of course Qui Gon. He was the Jedi who dared to listen to the voices of the midi-chlorians. He understood that his self sacrifice was
    indispensable for the ways of the force, and that he would be far greater than any jedi before him. He was the one who fooled death because he dared.

    [​IMG]

    Episode IV-VI: Bringing balance to the force. Great movies. Fantastic adventure movies with a touch of them good ol' western mixed with romantic fantasy. These movies are about defeating evil powers. With Episodes I-III in mind they are also about learning from past failures. Here the Jedi (i.e. Obi Wan and Yoda) does teach the young Luke Skywalker about things which the jedi once didn't dare to teach or research. And Luke skywalker becomes something of a jedi who possibly wants to see the force from all its aspects -- even the dark side.

    Episode VII-IX: How to give people what they want and how to break the forth wall in Star Wars. (No. TLJ didn't break any new ground. It was just provoking and trolling. And if you think about it: everyone is a broomboy in George Lucas vision of Star Wars. TLJ is still the best of the three new episodes even if it just happens to be work of silliness.)

    What I wish Episode VII-IX would have been: a philosophical war drama in which the great holy ghost of Qui Gon Jinn leads Luke through the mystic and where Luke is starting to teach his followers bout his new knowledge -- and thus starting a jedi order with an open mind.

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. bferr1972

    bferr1972 Force Attuned

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    ^ I think that's a little reductive towards the ST. I think it brought plenty to the mythos-- Force Psychometry, Force Connection, Force Projection, Force Healing, the sacred Jedi texts, the fact that one can disassociate from the Force, suggesting the prospect of "Grey Jedi," a Force Dyad.

    In the lead-up to the ST era, Luke seemed guilty of repeating the same mistakes that led to the Order's downfall, culminating in the destruction of his temple and Ben's turn to the Dark Side, which is why he decided to end it all until Rey showed up and offered a new path forward. I also like to think Luke's last stand at Crait is exactly how the Jedi of old were meant to function, in that he was able to achieve an end to conflict without actually fighting. I think that's what the ST was eventually building towards, especially when you consider Rose's line to Finn about saving what they love. Of course, TRoS then went off in a... slightly different direction.

    So, when I think of the Jedi in the ST, I think of the Beatles song "Get Back":
    Get back, get back, get back to where you once belonged... :)

    I imagine recovering the Jedi texts and Rey's fresh perspective will help the new Order actually get there this time.

     
    #35 bferr1972, Dec 10, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2020
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  16. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    Also, a war-profiteering, 1%-er aristocracy adding a ton of complexity and gray-tones to the otherwise pretty mono-cultural, monolithic politics in Star Wars.
     
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  17. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    Those were all a part of Star Wars long before the ST

    Edit: not sure about Force projection.
     
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  18. bferr1972

    bferr1972 Force Attuned

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    Perhaps, but the ST brought them to the forefront, I would argue.
     
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  19. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    Maybe so, but my point is that they weren't new or original ideas - far from it in fact. Other than projection, the stuff you mentioned had all been done/used in Clone Wars, Kotor, Jedi Knight games, Force Unleashed among other things.
     
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  20. Midi-Chlorian

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    I apologize for sounding harsh. I like the ST but I aslo believe that I have the rights to being reductive since J J Abrams is truly reductive to the vision of George Lucas. He is ignorant in his disregarding of the ideas presented in the PT. TFA is pretty aggressive as well as fearful in its passivity.

    It would have been as if The Beatles had recorded the following songs in this particular order:

    1. She Loves You (1963)
    2. Help (1965)
    3. Tomorrow Never Knows (1966)
    4. I Want To Hold Your Hand (1963) :)

    I have always believed the separtists were complex and weird (fighting for the sake of economy rather than ideology) and the Sith being absolute evil (fighting for an ideology)
     
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