Midichlorians

I just think it's a huge over reaction...mainly because it seems that ANYTHING that got even slightly expanded upon in the PT will somehow get labeled as "ruining" whichever concept it was in relation to.

Like I said at another point. Did it make anyone mad that ESB RUINED the mysterious background of Luke's father?

No. Yet it's in the same ball park (even though it was revealed in an incredible way).

Does it "ruin" the background of Han and the Falcon that we find out that Lando owned it before and lost it in a bet?

No.

All things that, I guarantee, had they been only brought about in the PT, that people would have complained.

"Why did they have to make Luke's dad evil? Ugh that ruins his background for me."

"Why did they have to tell us anything about the Falcon before Han got it? I figured he built himself. Winning it in a bet ruins what I wanted to believe happened. "


Do you get what I'm saying? It's so knit picky.

 

Kibble, Great Post!

Sometimes it's just great to see Yoda 'go to town.'

I agree with Mr Lucas here, it was great to see Yoda in that scene.

p.s sorry Ree Yees can't resist recounting that ol yoda scene

 

Midochlorians;

I like to think of it this way: Obi Wan would not have been wise to run around having slaves and farmers blood tested for Midiclorians with the Empire as the dominant force in the Galaxy. What was good for Qui Gon under the rule of the Galactic senate had changed by the time Luke saw Leia through R2. The Empire ruled the Galaxy.

The idea for Obi Wan was to hide Luke from Vader and the empire because it was understood that if Anakin was to father any child; that child male or female, would be strong in the Force due to a high Midochlorian count. i.e a higher potential to be trained in, and to become one with, the Force. And thus be a threat to or potential understudy to, Palpatine.

I look at Midochlorians as a kind of Jedi aptitude score. The higher the score, the more attuned a child could potentially become with the Force through a heightened sensitivity to the energy of the force.

This is just one potential way to make peace with the disconnect here between the Original and Prequel trilogies.

 

We're talking about the FORCE. A central, thematic and spiritual element to all Star Wars stories. The Force is not something arbitrary like han getting the falcon from Lando (which was suitably vague and served charater development puposes for both Han and Lando). Its the Force...and they made it weird in Ep. 1.

 

Here is a different angle.

Before Luke is thrust headfirst into the conflict and performs heroic deeds he was an average "farm boy", in a sense like the audience. He isn't special! Obi-Wan "calls him to action" and describes the ancient warriors' mystical power he must learn to stand against the Empire. Luke first refuses the call until his family is murdered, which reinforces the idea of how much he is like us. In the Millennium Falcon Luke "feels" the Force with helmet over his eyes because he "BELIEVES" while Han doesn't. He takes action and becomes stronger, destroying the Death Star with the Force at his side. This thread of story continues through the entire OT. In the ESB he is called to overcome new challenges and answers the call and becomes Yoda's pupil. The FORCE is what an average person must obtain to overcome a threat greater than himself and it's exactly what Luke does in the final film. He reveals to Leia that she too can master this power because she is strong like him, he needs her to believe!

Skip forward to new trilogy...

The Jedi are an assertive "elite" order that enlist few superior children with a biological trait. You and I will never be like Anakin, he is special! He is a Christ figure and a child of prophecy! The same organization that preached peace, waged war and had their strong presence in the Republic's politics weren't able to see the root of evil from within and failed Anakin! He is a victim of circumstance "chosen" based on ancient texts and blood samples. Instead of cultivating the strength of character and "the good in him" the JEDI deny him the most essential of needs - LOVE! The Jedi couldn't spend a few extra space bucks to liberate his mother and restrict a relationship the fruits of which will SAVE THE GALAXY!!

In conclusion...

It's not the pro and con arguments of "midichlorians" that aggravate me so but the implications behind the concept that twists the entire saga and renders the OT useless! Arthur is able to use Excalibur because of the strength of his faith and character and this simple philosophy is at the heart of the Star Wars. Luke and his journey are timeless because it supplies the fantasy that we all can be like him... if we BELIEVE.

 

But they don't twist any concepts. Fans are so concerned with the immediate that they fail to see the bigger picture. The Prequels are PREQUELS. They take place before IV-VI, and their events over a canonically long period of time result in OT, the ones most fans use as their frame of reference on Star Wars criteria.

I feel the problem was always the 16 year gap.. We've all heard this before, but the long wait in between trilogies resulted in many idealized concepts heavily steeped in what was presented in the OT, movies that chronologically take place decades after The Phantom Menace, and thus the topic of Midi-Chlorians themselves.

As Ben_Kenobi explains above, The Jedi were basically cherry picking those with a detectable count, the arrogance of the entire Order was done on purpose by Lucas, all to eventually lead to the few Knights we see on the fringe later.

Anyone who asserts Lucas doesn't understand his own characters, doesn't understand that they're his creations. (at least they used to be, the is jury still out on whether or not that's a bad thing)
And hey, I'm not big on Yoda with that lightsaber, but I understand that within the context of the story by that point, it was nesseary, the phase of the character we hold near and dear would come later.

To summarize my post from the first page, you could have just 1 Midi-Chrlorian within your entire body and still use the Force at the level of a Jedi Master or Dark Lord of the Sith, within the storyline of the Saga we can confirm that by A New Hope. And since they exsist in all living things, anyone can use the Force, no matter how many they have.

 

They aren't just his creations. In the Original Trilogy many people worked together to create the characters we came to love, not just Lucas. There were other writers, other producers, and directors, the costumers, and the actors themselves. In the Prequel Trilogy, Lucas wrote and (lazily) directed it by himself, and (from videos of his directing) didn't appear to give the actors any room to improvise. And the "characters" that appeared were bad (flat, boring, and nothing anybody says or does makes any sense).

Some filmmakers have the capacity to create, write, and direct characters all by themself, to strictly adhere to their vision - Stanley Kubrick is famous for it. But George Lucas is not one of those filmmakers. That's clear, comparing the two existing Star Wars trilogies.

 

I appreciate your ideas, however I have to disagree on a few major points.

1. The prequels and the sequels are one epic space saga! The year gap may not have a direct
impact on the OT but the way JEDI/FORCE are portrayed alters our perception of the overall story.
It's not a matter of disgruntled fan outcries. Is it much to ask to have realistic "expectations" in the
narrative consistency. Regardless of how many years it took for new movies. The origin story is all
there! Expand on it, continue the same plot line, USE what you have in the originals.

Ex. The LOTR and The Hobbit feel like seamless continuation of each other, visually & in spirit.
Lucas at one point was as talented as Jackson, so is this too much to ask of him to stay on point?

2. I was never sold on the idea that Lucas preconceived the three trilogies ahead of time.
I'm sorry but that's nonsense!! It's not how the creative process works and the discrepancies
between each sequel, old or new are a testimony to that. Just like any talented filmmaker
Lucas told us the story as it came along to him. The rest is publicity to generate the hype!!

3. No fan or biographer knows Lucas better than himself! It's his universe and he gets to play
around wit his toys the way he sees fit. I get that! He is not the same man he was 30 years ago.
But don't use that as pretext to justify all the retarded decision making, lack of vision, and ultimately
rusty film making skills behind NT. There is NO conceivable scenario in my mind where YODA
should transform from a funny old sage into a bad ass sword expert. The whole concept is forced.
This is a PRIME example of changing the core of a beloved character to cash in on the hype!!!

LASTLY, your last part basically agrees with the midichlorian explanation being totally useless.

 

That's a good example with Kubrick. We can get into the formal semantics of Lucas and filmmaking in a dedicated thread perhaps, for the sake of keeping things here on topic.

First, great posts all around.

But to insinuate that they're useless is exactly my point, it's not hurting anyone that the Midi-Chlorians are present, they work in tandem with what came before, and storyline wise, what comes after. For all other Force users outside of Anakin/Vader, Midi-Chlorians aren't important. They were only used as a scientific explanation for Anakin's immaculate conception by the will of the Force. Whether or not a viewer agree's with that is purely subjective, but still doesn't impede on Luke's action in the OT. He still had to believe in himself in order to destroy the Death Star, it didn't happen because he inherited his Pap's genes. Or maybe it did. In my mind, it was always his destiny to do so, but that isn't something predetermined , that choice still remains with the character. That's the Force for you, it works in mysterious ways, in both trilogies.

If we were to go into a discussion regarding the prophecy and it's relation to overall destiny...well that's another debate

I guess what it comes down for me is, after The Phantom Menace released so many fans jumped on this hate parade of the movie. The impression I got was people were reading a scant few articles proclaiming Midi-Chlorians as a viral infection or something, simplifying it and making it out to be some parasite genetic disorder, when it never was.

I'm not saying any of you here are amongst those fans, and if I've come off abrasively in explanation I apologize, but rationalization was never needed on the concept in the first place, you just had to watch the movie with an open mind. If you come to the conclusion that you don't like it, well that's fine, but it's become a thing of Popular Opinion Vs Canon Explanation at this point.

i.e.
"There is NO conceivable scenario in my mind where YODA should transform from a funny old sage into a bad ass sword expert. The whole concept is forced". And that's because you've closed your mind to any more reasoning on the subject, just because you don't like. I didn't either, but I don't let it ruin the character for me, not when the movies provide thoughtful points on why Yoda and his saber end up being wrong by Revenge of the Sith

 

the fact that force power is genetic, measurable, and inheritable has always been a key component to the force. Otherwise why is Luke the new hope? the opposite of midi-chlorians would be that anyone with the proper education and training could be a force master. If this were the case why would obi wan wait around for twenty years to train Luke instead of just trying to recruit and train as many people in the jedi way as possible to confront Vader. How would Leia be able to hear Luke's cries for help at the end of ESB without any training of any kind unless it was something that she was born with. Why would they say things like "the force is strong in your family" if it wasn't genetic and inheritable?? The Jedi at the time of the PT have been studying the force for thousands of years so it only makes sense that they would have identified some of the physical characteristics of force strong beings. Midi chlorians in no way detract from the spiritual aspect of the force. The problem with the PT is that in many ways it is smarter than the target audience so is misunderstood. I recently watched the whole saga on blu ray and must say that the 1st 2 episodes are absolutely genius and some of the smartest and funnest of all the SW movies. Almost every shot in episode 1 and 2 is perfect. Add the clone wars episodes commonly referred to as the "Yoda Arc" and the PT becomes even better.

Besides midi chlorians one of the next biggest criticisms of the PT is that Hayden is a poor actor. This is also incorrect and misunderstood. Watch ESB or ROTJ and imagine every word that vader speaks in hayden's voice, or watch eps II and III and imagine Anikin's lines in Vaders Voice. OHHHH now I see he wasn't a bad actor but was delivering all of his lines in the tempo and cadence that J. E. Jones would have delivered them as vader, he actually nailed it dead on and is a very good actor!!!

 

Haha, it's a healthy debate we're having here. I'm enjoying this conversation. Don't forget that it's not midichlorian's I have the only issue with but the complete portrayal of the JEDI + midichlorians, lol. And I think the "hate wagon" only demonstrates how passionate the fans are, if they didn't care none of these debates would take place.

I HIGHLY SUGGEST you watch "THE PEOPLE VS. J.LUCAS"... it's such a fantastic documentary about critiquing and loving J Lucas. It's awesome to see JJ also voice his opinion prior to Disney's announcement of buying it off!!!

 

I think that the Clone Wars portrayed Yoda WAY better than the PT did. You got to see him do a little more of his crazy old guy routine. On topic a little more...You'd think that over his 900 year life Yoda might have gotten jiggy with it at some point and sired a high-midiclorian Yodaling. Maybe that is the "Other" that he speaks of in Empire, and why Obi-wan maybe doesn't know who it is? Nevermind, obviously not the case...but it might be cool to have a younger member of Yoda's race around. Sorry that wasn't on topic at all...

 

I believe the thing that made the midis so disliked is that the originals were steeped in religious/supernatural/mythic jargon when it came to Luke, Vader, Obi-Wan, and Yoda. It as all about YOUR DESTINY, and being luminous, and to transcend the limits of the body and mind, and then wham, microscopic life forms are the intermediary of an aware entity (the Living Force). It didn't really jive at first. TPM kind of redefined the mysteriis dom Star Wars into something out of left field.

YES, the Force is still the Force, but it is now a quantifiable entity instead of something people like Han Solo didn't believe in. You could argue that the Jedi simply tapped into an energy or you could think the Force was more like a pantheistic entity and both worked. I don't know.

I don't understand why Lucas thought it necessary to mention Midichlorians at all; Obi-Wan and Qui could just have said that 'the boy seems highly attuned to the will of the Force' or some such.

Anyway, I don't really mind the concept, just the implementation. But now I'm repeating myaelf myself like a repeating blaster.

 

If Lucas would have trusted new talented writers for scripting his story, a director who emulated his vision and unlocked the actors' potential we would have had a totally different experience!

 

That's exactly how I explain it to people. Maybe I'm that kid? LOL

 

As a life long Christian I believe there is as God, like the greater cosmic Force, guides and protects you in life. I am also a seeker of truth, and I also believe in the ancient astronaut theory, that things our ancestors witnessed were misinterpreted as divine, based on the lack of scientific knowledge or technology. There are things today that people 200 years ago would consider magical. Even in our day and age there are unexplained phenomenon that science can't yet explain, with advances in science these things will be explained, maybe just not in or lifetime.

In Star Wars midi-chlorians are an explanation of how someone summons and communicates with the Force. The Force is still like God and cannot be explained. Han, in A New Hope, was an atheist, not believing in the Force (Luke training with the remote on the Falcon scene), never bearing witness to the Force, believing in Luck. But in the Yavin IV hangar, he tells Luke "May The Force Be With You" because Luke believes in the Force and he wants Luke to succeed, in an almost suicidal attack on the Death Star, ultimately returning to help his friend out. You might say Han's return was the will of the Force, because without him, Luke wouldn't get the shot off to destroy the Death Star and Yavin IV destroyed with the Rebellion. The Force told Han to return through his thoughts, after abandoning his new friends and their rebellion with his reward.

Everybody in Star Wars has the ability to use the Force, or be influenced by the Force. Some with more powerful concentrations in midi-chlorians are destined for greater use by the greater cosmic Force.

 

My problem with Midichlorians is that it connects with mitochondria, which most people are probably familiar with from their high school biology class. First, the word irritated me, because it took me from the movie experience into reality. I studied mitochondria in great detail in college, so I knew whatever science-based explanation he would give me would have to be extremely clever. But then it got worse with the explanation.

Personally, I don't think I need mitochondria to be spiritual any less than a Jedi needs midichlorians to know the will of the force. I believe that luminous beings are we, crude matter we are not, and the Jedi's spirit or soul is all that is necessary to connect with a presence larger than themselves. After a Jedi dies, he does not need midichlorians to tell him the will of the Force, because it should have been a spiritual connection to begin with.

In his early drafts, I remember reading that Lucas once thought of The Force being similar to yoga, where everybody had the power to access it, but only fully trained Jedi could use it to its fullest potential. It doesn't matter now, it's canon, but I wish he would have kept it purely spiritual.