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Midichlorians

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Vegeta Fett, Sep 16, 2014.

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Did you like midichlorian's being added to the story

  1. Yes it makes sense

    33.0%
  2. No it is not the way I imagined it

    35.2%
  3. I don't really care one way or the other

    27.3%
  4. What's a Jedi

    4.5%
  1. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Rebelscum

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    I think the mysticism was increased actually. Just like in real life where things are explored with people trying to reveal what it is going on. Anyone who thinks the Jedi knowing a bit about midi-chlorians means they know everything is simply not paying attention. That clearly is not the case as seen in the movies and TCW.

    It seems to me there are far too many people who actually think they are the Force. They are not.

    If you don't explore the mystery then it signals that both in story and outside the story no one has any imagination.
     
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  2. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Rebel Commander

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    The original idea of The Force stems from the Oversoul from Transcendentalism, and Vedic descriptions of the nature of the soul being in everything, from the animate to the inanimate. This is from Ralph Waldo Emerson,

    "We live in succession, in division, in parts, in particles. Meantime within man is the soul of the whole; the wise silence; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related, the eternal ONE. And this deep power in which we exist and whose beatitude is all accessible to us, is not only self-sufficing and perfect in every hour, but the act of seeing and the thing seen, the seer and the spectacle, the subject and the object, are one. We see the world piece by piece, as the sun, the moon, the animal, the tree; but the whole, of which these are shining parts, is the soul."

    To summarize, Emerson parallels ancient Vedic philosophy of how everything in the universe is a part of God, and how the soul is manifest throughout everything that is, and everything that is not. Moreover, in Vedic philosophy, even a rock has a soul, although it is in much more minute fractions than in living things.

    Yoda's lines help illustrate these Transcendentalist themes in Star Wars:

    "For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

    Now compare this to Qui-Gon's lines:

    "Midi-chlorians are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the force."
    "We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians...lifeforms living together for mutual advantage. Without midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. Our midi-chlorians continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force."
    "When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you."

    These lines open up a Pandora's Box of possible interpretations. Combining Yoda's lines with Qui-Gon's:

    Midi-chlorians create life which creates The Force. So, does that indicate that midi-chlorians indirectly creates The Force? Possibly. Furthermore, one could extrapolate these concepts into what Lucas was insinuating: mitochondria creates the soul/life. That borders on Star Wars turning from fantasy to really poorly written science fiction.

    But to further complicate the concepts, midi-chlorians are also living things, so you could try to reason this by saying The Force creates midi-chlorians that creates life that creates The Force. This is at least how I interpret it to help me ease my anxiety with the subject, although it still is a poor idea.

    There is so much more that I could write on the subject, but I am really strapped for time and need to stop procrastinating, but I think this demonstrates how people are irritated with midi-chlorians and how they (including me) feels that it should have never been introduced or involved as it was written.
     
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  3. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    First, Great Post.

    But I take something different from what Emerson is saying. Emerson states that we see the world in pieces but the soul is in the whole. A classic forest for the trees argument. But in criticizing the midichlorians (the parts) as diminishing the force (the whole) we are falling into that trap that Emerson is warning us of. Just because we can see the parts does not mean that the whole is diminished by them.

    At no point does Qui-Gon say midichlorians are the force, only that they aid in communicating with it. Yoda says life makes the force grow and Qui-Gon says life would not exist without the midichlorians, but that does not necesarrily equal midchlorians creating the force. They are intertwined with it yes, but not responsible for it.

    In my mind, the midichlorians are no more the force than a synapse is your mind. They are a method of conveyance. But the fact that they exist and aid in understanding and use of the force does not make them the force. They are no more the force than the rock or the tree. Just like a Jedi, the midichlorians are tapped into the force but only as a part of the whole.

    To extend your example. Mitochondria don't create the soul, but if you subscribe to Vedic philosophy, they are just as much a part of God as you are. As everything is part of the whole. You, the rock, the mitochondria, and the midichlorian are all drops in the divine ocean. None superseding the other.

    I think one of the issues here is implying the force as a creator. The force does not create life, the force is life. The force just "is" as a result of the universe's existence. So, from that angle it is impossible for the force to create midichlorians, and midichlorians create the force only in so much as any other entity existing in the universe. That they act as a conduit between the force and the Jedi is not indicative on any causal relationship. It is only indicative that Midichlorians exist as a part of weblike ecosystem that evolved to allow life to exist in the SW universe. That has created an ecosystem where life can only exist because of the dependency between living beings and midichlorians.
     
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  4. John Crichton

    John Crichton Rebel Official

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    I thought official status from here on was to be "let's not bring it up and maybe they'll forget about all the EP I stuff", no? I'm fine with either the midichlorians or just basically ignoring it altogether really. Besides, just because there is the scientific explanation doesn't mean force sensitives can't still sense other force sensitives through some sort of probing.
     
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  5. Vegeta Fett

    Vegeta Fett Rebelscum

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    Well they did say that the 6 movies were cannon lol.
     
  6. Shawshank

    Shawshank Rebel General

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    I like it. The Midichlorians are a medium between the ethereal Force and complex organisms. The Midichlorians are simple. They're conductors between the ethereal and the corporeal.

    It explains why some are not only Force sensitive while others are not, but why some are more in tune with the force than others.

    Taking that a step further, that's why people and events can be felt through the Force. The Midichlorians are communicating.

    To me, they don't effect the nature of the Force at all. It's still as mysterious as ever.

    I think the problem is that some people grew up hoping that anyone could learn the ways of the Force and didn't like hearing that the reason they've failed at telekinesis is because of their Midichlorian count.
     
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  7. John Crichton

    John Crichton Rebel Official

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    I think you just hit the nail on the head.
     
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  8. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    We already knew the Force was strong in some and not in others from the OT. Midichlorians are just an attemp to (kind of) explain how or why. I don't really care for the concept, myself. But it doesn't give me nightmares or anything. Midichlorians take up about 3 minutes of the 12 hour saga, but the Force is always there.
     
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  9. TheFettMan

    TheFettMan Rebel Official

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    If I recall, the Jedi Order was established by a mysterious alien race who came to the galaxy in huge space ships 1000s of years before the OT/BBY era.
    This race sought out "force sensitive" beings to train/develop the "Jedi Order".
    I think it was created to face the Siths or perhaps this "Achient Fear" that is rumored for the new 3 Star Wars films.
    There was a Star Wars Insider magazine article about the new plot/comic book series.
    Maybe these aliens brought the mini-clorians with them to filter out the galaxy races/beings to select Jedi.
     
  10. ZebroGodilla

    ZebroGodilla Darklighter Ace

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    I like to think the number of Midichlorians only reflected a possibility to use the Force. More of them, the better the chance. For Anakin and Yoda, they had the highest ever counts, but did Anakin honestly ever attain a spiritual or even physical control of the Force Yoda had? No, not really, he went evil, lost most of his body, and became an old cyborg serving a master he didn't realize had misled him and then left him in a suit of oppression.
     
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  11. Fish

    Fish Clone

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    Excited to weigh in on this!

    Clearly, if you follow the axioms laid out in the OT, it is not disappointing or surprising that some beings have a predisposition to "strength" in the force. After all, the force is strong in Luke's family. So, I don't object to the role that midichlorians play.

    The big problem with the midichlorians, in my opinion, is not that they exist, but that they exist ONLY for the instant that Quigon bothers to talk about them. If what he says is true, then there are certain logical conclusions from this that are never followed up on, by anyone in the movies. I think this is what makes it a jarring and awkward concept.

    Mr. Plinkett opened up my eyes on this. Here's Yoda, Mace Windu, and the entire Jedi council on Coruscant, and it has been revealed to them that a Sith Lord is closeby, preparing to strike. Its frustrating to watch the PT and see the Jedi Council take little to no action about this. I'm struggling to recall if anything concrete is done in response.

    But Quigon has already demonstrated that given a sample of genetic material, a simple test can reveal force aptitude. If all the members and staff of the senate were subjected to such a test, it would go a long way towards ruling out or identifying suspects.

    Maybe the Jedi Council actually did that, or already had access to that information, but it is never mentioned. Other than Quigon, every other character in the movies is utterly indifferent to the issue of Midichlorians, to the extent that their role, their importance, their existence, is never even mentioned.

    I'll repeat myself because this is what makes the PT so weird. Its the strange inconsistencies that proliferate. Here is a tool, a midichlorian counting device: portable, easy to use, easy to interpret, approved for use by Jedi Masters, able to confirm the identity of an individual of prophecy!

    It is brought up once and never used or referenced again.

    Did Anakin really bring balance to the force? Maybe Sheev brought balance to the force, by seducing Anakin to the dark side. Did anyone even bother to check the emperor's midichlorian count? Did anyone ever even care?

    It just makes no darn sense!

    Maybe midichorians were Quigon's pet project, and his personal conspiracy theory. And all the other Jedi Masters would roll their eyes when he brought it up.
    "Oh, jeez. Here comes Quigon. For goodness sakes, don't bring up his research into midichlorians. He'll talk to you for hours, test you and put a number in his little book. What a drag."
     
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  12. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    This is a perfect example of why it was such a bad idea to introduce the notion that one's Force potential can be quantified via a simple blood test. Once again, it makes the Jedi look utterly inept in dealing with the mystery of the Sith. And it always bothered me tremendously that the Jedi were characterized as being so clumsy and clueless in the PT, not even bothering to do the most basic detective work to uncover what was clearly a deadly threat, not only to the Republic and the Jedi order, but also to the galaxy as a whole.

    That's the problem with Lucas not having charted out the PT's basic story arc from the beginning and just making it all up on the fly as he did. He broke a prime rule of script-writing: if you lay a gun on the table in Act I, then somebody needs to fire it by Act 3. Now, I think it was completely unnecessary to attach a measurable number to Force potential in the first place. But if Lucas was bound and determined to do so, then he needed to follow through on it. The midichlorian concept sets the PT up for a good old detective story. It might even have lent itself to the inclusion of a Sam Spade type character, which could have provided the PT with another type of that worldly grounding that Han Solo gave to the OT. But regardless, the Jedi needed to investigate who was pulling the strings in the Senate, with the midichlorian blood test as the final proof. Not only would it have made the Jedi look less feckless overall, but it would also have given Palpatine some perfect material to sell everyone on the notion that the Jedi were plotting to take over the Senate (which came pretty much out of nowhere in ROTS.)

    Or... Lucas could have just left the whole midichlorian thing out of the PT in the first place. Because as it stands, midichlorians are little more than a momentary plot device in TPM to explain to the audience through verbal exposition that the Force is incredibly strong with Anakin. But of course, that same thing could have been accomplished even more effectively by showing young Anakin unconsciously using the Force, or even consciously using it once he knew what it was. ("Show, don't tell.")
     
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  13. Fish

    Fish Clone

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    Wow, see, that's a great idea. Under your treatment, I actually like the midichlorean idea for the first time! The concept of it is not the issue, but proper use is what we're talking about. Where were Lucas's yes men when he needed them? Someone to say, "Hey, George, that midichlorian concept is original, it changes how fans think about and respond to the Force. So don't drop it! Use it! Keep it in mind as we move forward!"

    To use an analogy:

    The introduction of the midichlorian concept throws the audience off balance.

    What should follow is... a little push... to send them tumbling down the rabbit hole.
     
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  14. Darth Lexor Kai

    Darth Lexor Kai General of the Future Folk

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    its absolute bunkus! they took the mystery out of the force.

    all we needed to know was that
    "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
    -Ben Obi-Wan Kenob
     
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  15. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Absolutely.

    Now, my overall preference would have been to not reduce Force potential to a quantifiable number in the first place.

    It kinda reminds me of the time as a kid when we were at Disney World and the Peter Pan ride stopped when we were right in the middle of it. They had to turn the lights on and lead us out across the catwalks, completely spoiling what was a pretty good illusion. Last thing I remember seeing before we left the ride area was an old mop and bucket leaning against the wall.

    Turning Force sensitivity into something that can be tracked on a spreadsheet, to me, has always reminded me of that mop and bucket.

    HOWEVER... if they had to use that concept, then I really wish they'd have USED it, rather than just dumping it on us as sort of a throwaway bit of exposition in the first film to explain that the Force was strong with Anakin. Okay, fine, a high midichlorian count means that Anakin was destined to be "the most powerful Jedi ever." But what ELSE did it mean? How could it have actually moved the story ahead and helped to set things up for the ending that we all knew was coming?

    If the search for the Sith lord had involved getting midichlorian counts from suspects, what sort of story wrinkles might that have created? How would Palpatine have used this to his advantage, and how would he have deflected the Jedi's attention away from him and perhaps onto some patsy?

    IMHO, it's another missed opportunity.
     
  16. Bradford Tyllestad

    Bradford Tyllestad Rebel General

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    ^^This. Not only do I have a number of problems with the PT, I am what some would consider a PT-hater. I just love to hate these abonimations and find it funny when people are defending these objectively speaking jokingly bad pieces of movie making. But the midi's were never a problem for me, I never really understood what the fuzz was all about. The concept made sense and it was a simple way of explaining why some people were stronger in the force than others. Not necessary, I mean we had survived 20 years not knowing anything about it, but not disturbing like most of the stuff in TPM and the rest of the PT..

    In some sense I could compare it to the "Han shot first"-fuzz. For me, Greedo shooting first was one of the least disturbing "embellishments" of the original SE, while I can't watch the Jedi Rocks-number or the Jabba scene in ANH.
     
  17. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    I was a bit bummed at the whole Midichlorian thing at first but then after I gave it some thought I realized that they really don't ruin anything about the Force as we saw in the OT but add to it. Here's a cool explaination that a moderator said about Midichlorians on another SW page I visit.

    A fan argued with the moderator saying that Lucas ruined the Force by adding a scientific element to it as the Force was solely mystic energy that flows through everything. The moderator told him that nothing had changed as the Midichlorians are not the Force at all but merely the way beings connect to it. He told the fan that he was arguing as if he pretended that his cable modem was the whole internet when it's just a means to connect with it.

    The internet is always going to be there and it's filled with tons of knowledge but only those that have a means to connect can benefit by this. Midichlorians are just that, a means to connect to the living Force. I think they add much to SW as we clearly know that some people have the Force and others don't and no matter how much you may believe in the Force, this will not let you tap into it's power no matter how strong your faith.
     
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  18. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    While contemplating the plot of "The Phantom Menace", I also noticed that the role of midichlorians seemed to serve as a metaphor for the needed relationship between the Nabooans and the Gungans - especially in regard to the situation involving the Trade Federation.
     
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  19. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    Most of the redemption of midichlorians is our own (and more recently, Filoni & Hidalgo) retconning of what it represents.

    Alone, it would have been just a stupid story quirk of TPM and relegated to the history pile without much backlash - there was other things to complain about. But when it was inherently linked to 'Anakin as Chosen One', the audience ran with the uber-mensch obsession with genetics and superiority of Jedi, etc. It was the combination of those two plot points that riled up the fanbase and alienated people. Unfortunately we're still riled up about who is related to whom and that everybody must be related for the Force to work, which is missing the forest for the trees.....or missing the Force for the midichlorians (!). ;)

    But I think its clear the story group is actively working away from those assumptions that the audience has been arguing about for over a decade. I like the concept of the midichlorians as a horrendous failure of the Jedi Order and their attachment to dogma. Although that theme has never been explored in the canon media thus far, its an explanation by Pablo Hidalgo that works for me (much like Stephen Strange "looking at the world through a keyhole" instead of a whole). That's a concept that I like, still a retcon from the initial muddled and subsequently abandoned 1999 understanding.

    Characters like Chirrut Imwe and now Sabine, who handles a lightsaber very nicely (so did Pre Vizla considering he stood toe-to-toe with Maul for a bit - Ahsoka also gets defeated by a bounty hunter using a lightsaber in the CW, when she's guarding the library as punishment, although I don't remember the episode), do show that midichlorian counts aren't really that important and characters can passively access the Force and do great things without actively or consciously using telekinetics or psychic aspects of the Force like the Jedi do. I fully approve of moving away from midichlorians, as per the Dr. Strange reference above. {insert medical droid emoji here}
     
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  20. 2K-D2

    2K-D2 Clone Trooper

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    Bunch of fanboys got riled up, I didn't *shrug*
     
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