Mind Reading and Troubling Implications

This whole Telepathy thing seems to something unique to TFA. The force users of the previous films never truly displayed the ability to read minds. They always described what the sensed whether it be a disturbance in the force, fear, doubt, death or life, their abilities always seemed to be more Empathic than Telepathic. Less Professor X and more Deanna Troi, you know what I mean? It was never about entering peoples minds but sensing the vibes people are projecting. Also I always assumed Vaders method of interrogating Leia was with that levitating, spikey, torture sphere. The same one he used on Han before they froze him carbonite.

 

Thanks for your reply!

I think Luke at the The Empire Strike Back called to Leia telepathically and tells her his location ("I know where Luke is."), and later Vader seemed to reach out to Luke in that manner as well, projecting his words in ways Luke reacts to ("Luke"; "Father"; "Son, come with me.... Luke... it is your destiny.").

In Return of the Jedi, Vader did extract the idea of Luke having a sister during their duel ("sister, so you have a twin sister"), starting with a feeling but delving further and extracting a very specific piece of information in that scene.

Somewhere I think it was said that Yoda could communicate telepathically with Jedi. I would love to find a reference for that. This did surface in an episode within the canonical Rebels animation series: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Path_of_the_Jedi

I smiled widely at your Deanna Troi reference. I think she could have made a fine Jedi in the Star Wars universe.

JediMasterRobert

 

Kylo's powers, don't seem to be "new" per se. More like they're variations of what we've seen before, just used differently. Like Vader is able to pick up on thoughts/feelings that Luke (despite his best efforts) is letting slip out and then delve more into them. Kylo, he literally digs into someone's mind and rips information out.

Not completely differently, just somewhat more (no pun intended) forceful and refined.

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Didn't say it wasn't. I simply said the precedent was there and same principle does apply. And like I also said, Luke didn't have a Force User actively digging around in his head, potentially teaching him things unintentionally or unlocking dormant abilities that we're already there.

Different situations, so drawing a direct 1 to 1 comparison doesn't really work.

 

I just guessed Leia knew where Luke was because he was the reason they were able to escape Cloud City. That's why she told Lando " We have to go back" I always assumed it was a feeling thing. Like she was feeling her brothers pain. Just like how Luke felt that she was still in the planets orbit and close enough to make a U turn and pick him up. In regards to Vader I was under the impression he was bluffing. He had interacted with Leia on numerous occasions before ANH and after and he never felt the connection like he did with Luke. I think Vader just suspected that if his son is still alive then his daughter is most likely somewhere out there among the stars. It was like he was gauging Luke for info and Luke confirmed his suspicions.

Thanks for the info about the Rebels cartoon I really need to check more of that out! Was the subject of Jedi telepathy in the latest season or the one before this one?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 1, 2016 ---

You are absolutely right comparing the characters power progressions doesn't really work because Rey and especially Kylo were all over the place in terms of power and skill. Firstly let me apologize for looking over the fact that little Anakin was actually using full blown telepathy in episode I when the council was testing him and he was correctly guessing what all the hidden images were, but this info leads us to the question. If it were easy enough for Rey, a fledgling force sensitive, and Kylo, a force user who has not completed his training, to exchange knowledge and experience with and of the force; Then why didn't any of the Jedi Masters of the PT and OT do this with their pupils? Surely if Yoda and Obi Wan, who both were so pressed for time, would have conveniently uploaded their knowledge into Lukes brain and have him skip all the unnecessary studying and training that he and all the other past Jedi apprentices had to endure. Also since Luke's education and knowledge of the Force is limited due to the fact that he never got to fully experience any real Jedi training; How are we suppose to believe that the Jedi Knight who had trouble killing a malnourished Rancor is teaching anybody how to use "New Force abilities" when he never really MASTERED the basic Jedi abilities. Lets not forget that Luke is only considered a Jedi Master because there is allegedly no one from the golden era left.

 

The discussion on this thread has been good and fun to read. Since the first time I saw the movie, it has never really bothered me. We know through Kylo's discussion with Snoke that she is very strong with the force. I interpreted the scene with the stormtrooper to be as simple as she experienced what Kylo was doing to her in trying to manipulate her mind and then during her resistance discovered she had the ability too. So when she needed to escape she decided to try it on the stormtrooper. We must remember that she failed two times before she was able to do it. It was when she finally opened herself up to the force on the third time that it worked. It may have bothered me more if she would have been successful in the first try.

As far as her ability to force grab the lightsaber is concerned, that did not bother me either. Many of us who followed the spoilers were aware that if they were correct, Finn was going to fight Kylo, become injured and Rey would take up the fight. A lot of people speculated that she would finally accept her destiny and the lightsaber by force grabbing it. I think we sometimes tend to over analyze this sort of stuff. How she learned how to do it is not that important. It is the action that is important. The force grab of the saber is the visual imagery of her accepting her destiny and no longer running from it as she did at Maz's castle. It worked beautifully. By trying to explain how it happened we lose the symbolism of why it happened.

 

wasn't Vader able to read Luke's mind finding out he had a sister? I mean Luke's emotions "betrayed" him, but to find out he had a sister Vader had to read his mind, so I always assumed Vader could do that, but wasn't able to do it with Leia in episode 4 because she resisted him, and with Han he just didn't want to know anything, just torture him.

 

Vader seems to be continuously probing Luke in ESB and ROTJ. I think Kylo Ren is very empathic in his mind probing. If you don't have empathy a mind probe is impossible. Ask any psychiatrist. You need to identify your own 'Self' with the other person's feelings and emotional state or identity in order to get out of that person whatever you want. Just think about Kylo Ren:
a. With Poe Kylo commends him by playing into his ego: "I didn't know we had the resistance best pilot on board" and "no one could get out of you what you did with the map" etc.
b. With Rey: "Don't be afraid. I feel it too" (...) You're so lonely......and at night, desperate to sleep (...) you think Han Solo is the father you've never had . He would have disapointed you...etc.

There is pathos in Kylo's mind probe. He brings himself on the same emphatic level as the person he interrogates. He triest to identify himself with that person and seeks a common ground. Vader couldn't be more different. He just "your feelings betray you....." "so you have a twin sister" "search your feelings etc."

 

Vader knew Padme had given birth to a boy and a girl because Palpatine told him that bold face lie that the twins had died during childbirth like their mother. Fast forward about eighteen years later during the battle Yavin Vader "sensed/felt" that one of the X-wing pilots was force sensetive and later discover that the pilot was in fact his very much alive, death star destroying son.I assumed him knowing his son is not dead and Palpatine is liar would also mean he knew that his baby girl was out there in space too. but like I mentioned above little Vader was displaying telepathy in Episode I so he does indeed have that ability. So he could have very well interrogated Leia psionically but I just always assumed she was roughed up physically because they put lot of focus on that spikey torture sphere. If he had interrogated her psionically I imagine he would have realized who she was because Leia's mental fortitude/willpower/cosmic awareness has always been powerful. As a matter of fact in ROTJ didn't she reveal that she always felt a connection to Luke and to lesser degree Vader? It was during their talk in the Ewok village.

 

totally agree. between the two, i think Vader has more sociopathic tendencies. it seems clear to me that particularly in the scene with Rey, Kylo Ren fishes out emotional states that he himself strongly identifies with before actually digging for the map.

 

I was thinking about this: is Kylo admiring Poe?

 

i dunno. i think there's a strong indication that Kylo Ren's has a default reaction to anyone with any sort of admirable skill or ability.

he seems to wants to be perfect at something himself (and he's not. not by a long shot) ~ so he might admire/resent perceived perfection in others.

 

ok, so from what you both said, we could say(in a very simplistic way) that Vader probably has/had that ability to "mind probe", but he didn't use it because he didn't wan't or maybe wasn't able anymore to be empathic and connect with anyone on a more emotional level (except his son), so he just used torture and pain to brake his captive's minds.

 

I'd say the movie does not specifally tell us whether or not he's mind probing. The only difference is that Vader doesn't have to wave his hand around.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 1, 2016 ---

Or he is just braggin'.This is Kylo's moment of victory. "I didn't know we have the best pilot of the resistance on board......

 

physical tortue seems like the first obvious/easiest option, too, if forcing oneself into another's mind is taxing and/or painful to the person doing it (which is something suggested in the Kylo Ren/Rey scene). Ren only resorts to torturing Poe when the other methods fail. could be sadism? could be self-preservation.

it seems Vader had no reason to think psychological and/or physical torture shouldn't work on Leia.

personally i don't find any of this problematic, but i realize we're just trying to work out a reasonable reconciliation between the powers of the OT and the powers we're seeing in the ST, but this seems just as good a reason as any?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 1, 2016 ---

oh absolutely. anything to make himself look good. hahaha

 

Tarkin kindly asked her the location of the rebel base.

"She can be rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreasonable". Nobody cares about Dantooine. It's like blowing up Finland.

 

Isn't the "art of mind control" as old as the scripts for the Star Wars auditions back in '76 (75?) where Luke ascribes them to Leia? What Leia does in the movie is keep the location of the rebel base secret even under torture, so this definiton of mind control looks like a purely defensive technique to protect one's mind against probing.

My thoughts keep coming back to Yoda's statement in ESB that a Jedi uses the Force not for attack but only defence. And if the art of mind control is a Force-technique then there would be a dark and a light way to use it. I get the impression that Luke has taught Rey the light side of this technique, and that she spontaneously can put up a protective/defensive barrier whenever Kylo tries to attack her sentiments for her unknown father/family. We see a change come over her face during the interrogation as soon Kylo mentions the island. He doesn't get any further than that, and suddenly she can push him back. The same happens during the duel the moment Kylo mentions that Han can't save her now. Rather than becoming demoralised, she goes all calm (because she knows she still has her father), and then she becomes energized and fights back.

Kylo and Vader both use mind control in an aggressive way. I doubt that Luke has taught that technique to his apprentices because it's not ethical and it probably only causes resentment in the injured party, and they fight back - a vicious circle. It looks to me like Kylo learned this technique from Snoke.

Interestingly, when Rey is forced to put up the mental barrier in self-defense during the interrogation, she briefly retaliates by attacking Kylo. This looks like a proper Jedi would have to restrain himself from exploiting the fact that another brain is fused with yours but that the option to Force-mindread others is always available once you know how to do it.

 

you might be slightly mis-remembering the sequences. Rey fights Kylo Ren in the torture chair throughout his probing, strarting with her loneliness, he mentions the island, but moves on from that to Han Solo. then, he backs off (likely because that's an image he doesn't like). she does tell him to get out of her head, but it's in the moment about Han, not about the island.

in the duel, when he tells her "Han Solo can't save you now," she actually gets furious and tries to shoot him. that's when he throws her into the tree. later, he offers to show her the ways of the Force and that's when she centers herself to fight back. there's no connection between father or father-figure in that moment.

i totally get what you're reading into the subtext of those moments, but i thought i would clarify those two points.

 

I stand corrected about Rey's timing of her reaction during the duel. When it comes to the interrogation, however, Kylo claims that Han Solo is the "father you never had" - and that's when she reacts, because the mind barrier she has put up defends the image she has of her own father. Kylo claims that Rey's father was never there for her, and her mind tells her that's not true, right after she remembers that island. I intuitively made that leap from the island to Luke once Kylo mentioned the father thing. Maybe that's just me, but it felt protective of her real father and had little to do with Han.

 

i can see that. the exact point of reaction for Rey is "he would have disappointed you". in both incidents, Rey is very defensive of Han, certainly. and it's a fair enough reading that the defensiveness comes from a longing / connection to the father she never knew.