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Missed Opportunities of the ST - What Could’ve Been

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by JediJurist, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. Skyboss

    Skyboss Rebelscum

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    Opening segments felt like 5 minutes when it could have been 15. I think too much film was left in the floor.
     
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  2. Juniper

    Juniper Rebel Commander

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    Luke's arc, wish he wasn't introduced so late in TFA.

    Abrams planted a seed and RJ came up with what he felt explained why Luke had gone into exile/hadn't battled agaisn't the First Order & had cut himself off.

    I get why Rian wrote what he did for Luke in TLJ but I wish JJ would have set things up better in TFA, it literally ends with Luke looking angry/scared at the sight of his old Lightsaber.

    Come to think of it, Luke's been mishandled even in the books/comics. Disney need to give us more Luke now Reys story has concluded on screen. Time for more Luke.

    Imagine in 30+ years time they make another Episode and the crawl starts with "Rey Skywalker has vanised!"

    Palpertine even returning. It just doesn't sit right with me and hasn't since the first tease trailer. For it not to even be explained and briefly brushed over is ridiculous. It's now the Skywalker and Palpertine saga.

    Anakin not showing himself to Ben through the whole trilogy. Would have even had a bigger payoff for Palpertine saying it was him manipulating Ben to hear him the whole time.

    How R2 & C-3PO have been underused in the whole trilogy. TROS showed how much they can continue to add if given some better scenes/lines. JJ nailed their characters (especially C-3PO) in the final instalment and long overdue.

    The Knights of Ren.....still waiting for an explanation as to what their whole deal is.

    Luke's Jedi temple barely being a footnote.

    Weird flashback scenes in TFA never again referenced.

    I hope the whole trilogy has been a lesson to Disney/Lucasfilm. Yeah we got some good stuff and I'm very grateful we got more episodes but we also got a lot of messy stuf too.
     
    #22 Juniper, Dec 22, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2019
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  3. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    As I thought the KoR remain a mystery. Simply wasted... kind of reminds me of Phasma. There is a good comic book by Marvel released this month written by Charles Soule called the Rise of Kylo Ren that delve deeply into the KoR. Its unfortunate that we have to read about it in a comic book, but its really good.
     
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  4. Juniper

    Juniper Rebel Commander

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    Exactly

    I have the comic arriving tomorrow but I just think that you shouldn't need to read a comic to get some backstory as any follow up material is not written by the same person who's vision created the film/created the characters.
     
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  5. Yaddleslovechild

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    Let me start off by saying I haven’t seen the movie yet... my dad and I have seen every movie together since Episode 1 in theaters, and due to work, he’s not able to go until Tuesday.

    However, I’ve basically “read” the entire movie online, simply because I couldn’t help myself.

    I obviously can’t/ don’t want to get into too much of what I disagree with or would change because I haven’t seen the physical movie yet, and maybe it will feel differently on screen versus in written form.

    This is the Skywalker Saga, the whole story is centered on the Skywalker family and legacy. More specifically, Anakin Skywalker. I really feel like bringing back Palpatine and having Rey defeat him undercuts Anakin’s whole story as The Chosen One.

    This will probably sound like a terrible idea to a lot of people, and that’s fine. From what I understand, The Emperor starts to drain the life essence from Rey when she refuses to join the dark side. Furthermore, Rey and Kylo are some weird kind of force dyad.

    Realizing that they (Rey and Ben/Kylo) are too weak to defeat Palpatine, or any living being for that matter, they combine their powers to resurrect the only being who can; The Chosen One. Essentially, Rey and Kylo drain their own life essence and sacrifice themselves to bring Anakin back to destroy Palpatine for good. Anakin is brought back to how he was before he was corrupted by the dark side and defeats Palpatine. The movie could finish the same way, but with ANAKIN going back to Tatooine where it all started and seeing his Children, Rey, and Kylo gazing at him as force ghosts, sad smiles on their faces. It would be a bittersweet ending as Anakin is given a second chance at a life, but that life will be filled with the knowledge that his actions directly played a part in not only Padme’s death, but the eventual death of his children as well. Saddened by all that has transpired since being found on Tatooine all those years ago, but hopeful he can help right some of the wrongs he inflicted on the Galaxy, he clips his old lightsaber to his belt, and turns to the setting twin suns, resolve written on his face.
     
    #25 Yaddleslovechild, Dec 22, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2019
  6. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Official

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    The trilogy was very odd in that even in the few ways it tried to be original, it still ended up being a copy.

    A female jedi who isn't a skywalker and not from tattoine? On paper, sounds fresh. But she ended up being a combination of Luke/Anakin and she was even related to the bad guy and from a desert planet. How is that original?

    Kylo's arc ended up matching Vader's almost identically. Even his death was somewhat similar. He was the big bad for a total of like 30 minutes.

    Poe was never a fleshed out character, but they even randomly decided to basically shoe-horn in a backstory similar to Hans for no apparent reason.

    BB8 was essentially R2...when they sidelined R2. I know the point was to sell toys. Why not just redesign R2?

    Off the top-

    Rather than making Rey a mystery from a Desert planet who doesn't know who she is or her place, make her Rey Solo hiding out on a junk (not dessert) planet because she wants nothing to do with Jedi or war or even her family. Make her reluctant hero. She hates war, Jedi, etc because of what its done to her family.

    Make Finn more than comic relief. Defecting should have been a bigger deal and he should have been more capable. Maybe he's a terrible planet, but a hell of a soldier or something.

    Kylo grew on me simply because Adam Driver is incredible. But I think we should have actually witnessed the emperor manipulating him. What if in the first two flicks we see the ghost of Anakin/Vader corrupting Kylo...confusing us all...only to learn in the 3rd movie it was Palp playing tricks.

    Tease the Palp return by having more creepy worshippers, etc. Make it seem like the galaxy just can't move on from Palpatine.

    Make the FO more rough around the edges, kind of like the empire in Mando.

    Poe probably should have died. I'm sorry, but he served no purpose when you think about it.

    Have ghost Luke interact with Rey and Kylo in the final movie.

    And...if you are going to bring Palp back...at least explain it and involve Anakin at least a little in defeating him. Even if its just a force ghost pep talk to his grand kids.

    I think the galaxy should have distrusted force users and Skywalkers. Make it a shameful thing to have the force.

    Have Kylo "come back" earlier in the film so it isn't so similar to Vader.


    Honestly the absolute best parts of this trilogy were the trailers for TFA. Its been downhill from there.
     
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  7. JediJarJar

    JediJarJar Rebelscum

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    Great ideas , i will expand on some.
    1.) Leias twins
    3.) Snoke being a Sith prophet and Darth Sidious secret apprentice.He broke the rule of two long ago.
    If starting from scratch i would have introduced Darth Sidious new apprentice , a dark side prodigy who is fighting the Skywalker twins over the course of the ST while Luke fights revived Darth Sidious.
    4.) absolutely, and give him a proper haircut,no beard and black clothes ROTJ style.

    I would have made Coruscant a place of many scenes throughout the ST and its destruction a shocking climax in IX.
    Leia,Han,Lando,Chewie,R2,3PO and Luke would have been together for a scene.
     
  8. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    Yes, agreed, TROKR is excellent thus far, but leaving some of these details out of the movie is ludicrous. I'm tickled to know what the "Ren" is, anyway.
     
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  9. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Look, let me constructively criticize your criticism which isn't constructive. I think that's fair and, not only fair, but can actually help in a constructive manner to anyone actually interested in meaningful artistic expression.

    Okay, no; you got the spawn of Skywalker saving the universe thanks to being aided by the Skywalkers. Remember that "overarching storyline" you're wondering about in your post? That storyline moves through the theme of asking, "What constitutes identity? From what aspect does identity get its roots? To what collective identity does one truly belong?" In other words, what makes a person "who are you?" and "to what 'family' do you belong?" Are you your physical body? Is that what makes you who you are and tell you where you belong? Or, is it your spirit? Your heart?

    This is the point of narrative motifs in relation to guiding the movement toward the resolution by which to compose an actual storyline that contains the exploration of an actual theme which is relative to communicating an idea to the audience. It's the message of the movement. The story wants to engage the audience to think and participate in a discussion that has actual relative meaning to the audience by way of the human condition. This is going to be important to know when you want to create a meaningful story.

    No, the only remaining Skywalker ends up on Tatooine looking into the binary suns.

    Again, a Skywalker did save the day. You're having trouble following narrative movement, and this is going to be a problem when you go to list your "ways of writing a better story" below. I'd also add that multiple Skywalkers saved the day in this movie. Leia saved the day in relation to both Ben and Rey during the duel. Han saved the day in relation to Ben after the duel. Luke saved the day in relation to Rey on Ach-To. Lando saved the day in relation to the arrival of the cavalry in the final battle sequence. Rey saved the day in relation to defeating the Sith. Ben saved the day in relation to Rey being killed and brought back. Poe saved the day. Finn saved the day. One collective body saved the day through each collective individual saving the day in relation to other individuals saving the day in turn.

    Okay now the actual problem here is that you're talking about a "cohesive storyline" but all you're doing is creating a list of a few characterizations and a couple of events. These things don't make a "storyline" let alone a "cohesive storyline". They are really, nothing at all. Not cohesive, not creative, not imaginative, not coherent, not story, not even plot.

    Stories are not events strung together with tape. This is simply a series of events, happening. A sequence of events doesn't constitute a story. It constitutes the empty shell into which the story - the motifs, the themes, the messages, the philosophies - is connected as a whole. Just like all of those individuals in TROS saving the day relative to the other individuals, forming a cohesive and connected whole with an actual purpose.

    So if any of you ever actually plans on writing a story then you first need to understand what a story is so you can understand the purpose of the story and why you should write it. But if you are under the impression that to write a story all you need to do is create characters and run them through a series of events then tack on a "twist"? That's how you write an empty shell of a story, an exercise in the crafting of a meaningless facade with nothing whatsoever to give the audience but a hollow piece of candy with no nutritional value. A perhaps nice-looking wrapper around a completely empty box.

    In the end, your "missed opportunities" don't actually list any "opportunities" because nothing in your list of characterizations and events is actually giving an opportunity to further or deepen the narrative theme. They are disjointed and detached characterizations and events, which you've mistaken for "opportunities" because you're not understanding the purpose of a narrative or a motif or thematic movement - the things which actually constitute a functioning and meaningful story.

    You cannot write a symphony by merely jotting down notes on a musical staff. The relationship is the music. The notes are just noise without meaning - a discordant and offensive sound - until they are made to connect thematically, within the confines of a directed movement towards a thematic resolution.
     
    #29 iostream, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
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  10. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Official

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    It isn't that serious.

    No one here is writing a movie. No one here is writing anything- just spitballing things we would have liked to seen in the sequels.

    Rey isn't a Skywalker because she tells some old lady she is.

    Leia didn't save anything. Lando was better at her job.

    Luke didn't save anything. He died for no reason basically. Well, he saved the resistance I guess but he clearly didn't inspire anyone.

    No one is "missing the narrative" lol lol lol. I'm crying.

    Guys like you are just glossing over huge issues with the movie because you decided you liked it before you even saw it.



    Not to you, but to the topic-

    I thought the original leaks that said the good guys had a Deathstar would have been a very cool dilemma for Leia. I think the trilogy could have explored the grey areas more.

    MOD EDIT
     
    #30 Unseen, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2020
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  11. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Let me ask you something, seriously. You ever eat sea salt and vinegar chips? It's the most baffling thing to me. You eat a chip and there's nothing to like about it. Just, salt and vinegar. Your face wrinkles up. You frown. It's just not a pleasant taste at all. But for some reason, you reach in and get another chip. But nothing's different. It's just as bad as the first. There's nothing to like about those chips. But, then, there you are, reaching into the bag for another one. And pretty soon you realize you're eating these chips. And you can't tell if you like them or dislike them anymore. It's like, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Sea Salt & Vinegar Chips Principle. Are they good, are they bad? Both yet neither? It no longer matters because all you know is that you keep putting your hand into the bag going back for more.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 8, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 8, 2020 ---
    Okay but you know what? Just to dial it back and get into the spirit of the thread, I do have some missed opportunities of my own to share.

    1. Someone running to a console, turning nobs and saying, "Imagizing!" then some frequency noises as a picture appears on a screen.
    2. Rey shouting to Sidious, "Fiend! You'll never get away with this!" to which Sidious replies, "Oh but I shall!"
    3. At least one zoom close-up on a screaming woman.
    4. "Reversing gravity particles!"
    5. Satan's Robot.
    6. General Pryde berating an officer with the word "Fool!" at least three times.
    7. When Rey uses the connection to give Ben Luke's lightsaber, cue this song for the battle sequence:

     
  12. SegNerd

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    One thing that was notably absent was a “peace moment” between Ben and Luke. I have gone back and forth in my mind trying to decide if I dislike this choice.

    The one reason it might have been a good choice was simply because the peace moment with Han was so poignant that I don’t want to risk anything else distracting from that. But ultimately, I have to say that they could have at least included a “mini peace moment.”

    After seeing the PT, the reunion of Obiwan and Anakin at the end of ROTJ seems more powerful and emotional than ever - but Luke and Ben never got to have a moment like that (at least not on screen).
     
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  13. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Overall the bones of a good story are there. They're just log jammed in there together so tightly nothing really feels organic to me. A byproduct of Terrio and Abrams' worst habits sort of highlighting each others and accentuating them to the foreground. It happens, even to talented people. (Spielberg/Koepp on Crystal Skull)

    1. Make it two movies. Ep9 to close out the ST and then a special feature to end the Saga. Then things don't feel congested, and things are allowed to develop and breath. Also, it ends it on a nice sweet round number. Beautiful.

    2. Using a 2 movie approach, you can fully utilize the return of Palps to close the saga. You can build his return in 9. Have it be clear and make sense, considering we all saw him explode in ROTJ.

    3. In ep9 you can fully explore Supreme Leader Kylo Ren, aka: what we really wanted to see from Vader/Anakin for a long time. His redemption is setup in 9 and it becomes a nice twist in the Saga ender when he comes all the way around.

    4. In two movies, you can actually give Finn, Poe and Rose arcs and stories that aren't just repeats of ep8. You'll have time for them to actually contribute. And JJ can still fit in all his buddies without sidelining Rose to do it.

    5. Two movies can give us almost a full feature of Ben Solo. We could even touch on what redemption means beyond Rey at this point. Could Uncle Lando and Uncle Chewie forgive him? Would they, even. Would the Resistance accept his help or just take him prisoner immediately...DRAMA!

    6. Two movies also gives you a chance to work the Leia material better IMO. It's so impressive they made it work as well as they did but the plot with the wayfinders, which seemed to be done to fit around her, is kind of lame. It's just a macguffin hunt that feels incredibly superfluous to me in TROS. In two movies it could have meaning. They don't know what it is, it's a mystery....and make it a damn Holocron.

    I could get into more details, but I don't feel like it.
    Overall I think it just lacked the space and time needed to tell the story it wanted to. Spread it out. Take the time.
     
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  14. Kraven Head

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    Great topic. While I could go on and on about all the possible missed opportunities the one I would have like is seeing R2D2 initially, and accidentally, restoring Treepio's memory to the ROTS timeline before giving him the properl update.

    Treepio reboots and says "Master Anakin.. oh no! " in front of the Resistance... could have been a cool seeing when they realize who built him.
     
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  15. BaranDo91

    BaranDo91 Rebelscum

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    I'd hate to call this a missed opportunity as more a major SNAFU on LucasFilm's part. So much of the backlash towards these movies could have been avoided had they had a plan. Had they put in the hard effort/ work to map out what they wanted to do for the trilogy and by extension the brand. And I'm not saying this is easy. Far from it. As someone who is in the process of writing their own story, the task can be daunting. But the fact that Disney spent four billion dollars on the brand and yet they are barely scrapping a billion with the FINAL movie of the Skywalker saga while Endgame managed to end up the highest-grossing film of all time is insane.

    This is Star Wars. It's a 40 plus-year-old IP with millions of fans worldwide. You can't just slap the label on the brand and expect people to gobble it up. And yes, you cannot please everyone. That's a fact of this brand and life. But they could have pleased a whole lot more people. Just look at Marvel as a good example. They had so much momentum going for them after Infinity War into Endgame.

    The atmosphere they had in contrast to SWs is night and day.

    Midnight's edge was absolutely correct in pointing out why the Sequel Trilogy isn't a trilogy. A trilogy is a set of three works of art that can be seen as separate or a single work. Trilogies work because there is either a thematic throughline that connects the movies(for example, adulthood in the OT ) or they can tell one story. Lord of the Rings is a prime example(GOAT trilogy).

    Midnight's Edge uses ROTS, Rogue One and ANH to demonstrate that the Sequels themselves are so patchworked in design.

    Overall, IF there is one lesson LucasFilm better take to heart it is that they need to have a plan. There's no excuse. As for what I would have done differently, to be honest; I would have not used the skeleton of this trilogy at all.

    Yes, I've seen some good rewrites of TFA(which made it what it should have been, a National Treasure Adventure movie) but really what we needed was something akin to Cobra Kai. A trilogy that manages to balance the OT characters and new characters side by side.

    My pitch would have been with the New Jedi Order and perhaps the Imperial Remnant from legends. Perhaps, we have Finn or Kira(I like the name better than Rey) as students at Luke's temple. We see the supposed peace in the galaxy all the while we are reminded of the problems that still linger.

    Maybe we see all the world that was under the imperial rule in disarray and thus they've come to hate the New Republic and thus line up with the Remnant? Heck, you could have had Jacen(Or Ben. Your pick) Solo align with The Remnant because he feels sympathetic and sees the Empire as the best way to make the galaxy safe/ peaceful?

    Or heck, borrow some elements from Legends. For example, my pitch of a trilogy would have had an Admiral Thrawn like enemy as the bad guy with the big twist being that the Remnant wanted to retake the galaxy because the Yuzhan Vong or some similar kind of enemy is coming. Thus, we set up a future trilogy where our new heroes(the OT heroes would be dead by the trilogy's end but would have a much better sendoff) in their respective positions and having earned the respect of the audience.


    As it stands, I treat the ST as bad fan fiction and pretend they do not exist. And really all I want is for the old Expanded Universe to come back and coexist alongside the new canon as a separate timeline. I know there are plenty of fans of the ST and I'd hate for their stuff to be removed like how the EU was removed for fans like myself.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 22, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 22, 2020 ---
    THIS right here is what should have happened. Specifically taking elements of Legends but not creating carbon copies. But rather, changing elements around while keeping the spirit of what made those stories good. Something like this I could have easily seen and it would have been unique. Plus, it would have given the newer characters a chance to define themselves in a conflict that not even our older heroes have been experienced in.

    But it was clear that LucasFilm didn't want to take any risks because of the prequels. In short, they learned the wrong lessons from them.
     
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  16. Arthur King of Cats

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    jedijurist, I agree with much of what you just said —and would add that the ST had a hate on for the Skywalkers, killing them off one by one. If Disney had learned just one thing from the entire arc previous to their purchase, it should have been that fans LOVE Luke, Leia, Anakin/Darth and HATED the way they were treated like garbage, not even allowing Ben to survive.

    I have just started reading the Yuzhan Vong Story Arc, and while it leaves much to be desired, I LOVE how Luke’s academy is treated as a continuing success story, and that Leila and Han are allowed to have multiple kids. As another fan said, I could watch Daisy Ridley 24/7 and have nothing against her or Rey, except that she was never allowed to develop or receive more than a few hours training, and that nobody else with force sensitivity was allowed to survive except, possibly, Finn. This story arc treats the Original Trilogy with respect instead of defecating on its legacy.

    I also agree that if Disney, as you say, had only spent the time and money to develop a PLAN spanning the entire three episodes —a plan that could be followed or mutated, but that at least would have carried fans along, this would have made an enormous difference.

    I would add that if Disneyy had treated the Skywalkers with RESPECT, and not as utter failures at the hands of (groooan) Palpatine, even invalidating Darth/Aanakin’s final sacrifice to destroy the emperor and save his son...then I might have been filled with excitement at watching the legacy of characters that I love, instead of disappointment at the way they are treated in the pitiful ST.

    Finally, I am astonished and appalled that Disney never deigned to dip into the incredibly rich pool of material now deprecated as “Legends”—was this a political thing involving Marvel’s ownership of those sources, or simply a case of Not Invented Here?

    I would cheerfully have paid to see film or even animated adaptations of the Yuzhan Vong story arc, enriched with the problem of possible alliances with Sith, Pirates, Hutts and all the riff-raff for whom the invaders were mutual enemies. This is the way human history has worked for thousands of years, and I dare say galactic history would follow these rules as well. WWII necessitated an alliance of England+USA with Stalin, for example.

    P.S. This is not simply what could have been, but could still be! There is nothing in the ST to prohibit the possibility that Leia and Han could have had children in addition to Ben —and Luke could have married and subsequently lost a wife such as Mara Jade, and left children. Plus, Luke could have trained other Jedi who survived. I would love to see a REAL successor to the ST, which learns from its failures and doesn’t kill off the Skywalker line
     
    #36 Arthur King of Cats, Mar 7, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
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  17. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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    1) Sounds too cliched. Like a SW junior novel. I also like the idea that you don't have to physically be a parent to someone to parent them. Just touching them in a positive way to add to their lives and help influence them in the right way is enough. One thing I loved about TROS is that you get hints of what Leia might have done for Rey. She did not just train her as a Jedi, but became the mother she never had and lost. So much so that the robe that Rey wears in TROS is supposed to be a tribute to Leia's Alderaanian heritage. Contrast that with the psychological abuse that Snoke inflicted on Ren.

    4) Luke is a 50+ old. How many 50+ do you know are wide eyed happy and optimistic. Children, 20 somethings and teenagers are usually that way because they haven't experienced enough of the ugliness of life because their parents protect them (at least in the western world). The fact of the matter is that life wears on the human spirit. And I like Luke (and characters in general) who are portrayed like flesh and blood human beings not plastic dolls. Also Rian Johnson said that for Luke to be like that would mean he and Rey were playing the same character.

    6) I like Rey the way she is. A woman with a dark side , but who chooses to do good. An evil twin would have come out of left field and not made sense.
     
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  18. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I think the final chapter of something always runs a very specific risk- how much new stuff is added, and how much of a focus do we put on existing conflict?

    Going in, everyone had expectations about their favorite characters, but I think we could safely assume at least one thing- conflict between Rey and Kylo. And we got it, and (in my opinion) those scenes were the highlight of the movie!

    Now, the whole dagger subplot? Personally, I think this is what I take issue with. Sure, some backstory stuff is wrapped up (arguably clumsily) in this plot, but the dagger itself is an entirely new device and I feel like its inclusion in the film feels more intrusive than welcoming. The entire time spent on dagger stuff just saw me sitting there thinking about how we could instead be seeing Finn lead a stormtrooper revolt, Rose getting actual screentime, more Rey and Kylo stuff. It's not so much that I'm mad that my theories didn't happen, but because of the dagger it felt like, for a while, nothing happened. That kind of treasure hunt/wild goose chase is just frustrating in a final chapter like this.
     
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  19. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    Funny you mentioned Ben being an undercover agent.
    I really thought that for a while after watching TFA.
    The "tone" of the whole ST arc darkened very much for me, because of the quite fast and uninspired "check out" from Ben.
    But I am over it.
     
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  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    100%.
    The dagger/wayfinder side quest was pointless and just an excuse to appease people that Rey, Finn and Poe didn't have enough screen time all together.
     
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