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Missed Opportunities of the ST - What Could’ve Been

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by JediJurist, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    I agree about the dagger subplot. Find another less contrived way of getting Rey to the planet and then... well, gee, how about letting her use the Force to guide her to the wayfinder?

    As for 50+ year old Luke, I can honestly say, having passed the half-century mark myself, that Luke's portrayal in the ST resonated VERY strongly with me. Happy endings when we are younger never seem to persist, and life just keeps having its way with us as the years pass. I'm glad they showed us this version of Luke. It just feels a lot more satisfying than if he had been the all-powerful "God Mode Luke" that I think a lot of us expected to see.
     
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  2. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    What could have been?

    I can't escape the feeling that the most interesting parts of this trilogy happened before the trilogy.

    Palpatine's failed clone somehow learning to evil truth, running away, having a daughter.
    Snoke seducing Ben Solo to the Dark Side. Luke facing Snoke for the first time, trying to fight the darkness in Ben.
    Luke finding the ancient Jedi texts, discovering that the Jedi weren't actually morally perfect.
    Leia trying to convince the Republic that the First Order is a true threat, discovering the plot to form a new Empire.
    Han and Leia's relationship falling apart as Ben turns to the dark side.

    If you ask me, this stuff is absolutely film-worthy. So much essential story, so much essential character development, took place off-screen. It could have been its own trilogy. Tell THIS story in VII - IX, and then tell the Sequel Trilogy story in X - XII.
     
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  3. ObiWanKnowsMe

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    What could have been if they mapped out the sequel trilogy’s entire story extensively before they began filming. TFA has issues but it’s overall a competent film and made me feel good about the rest of the trilogy. But TLJ and TROS just don’t flow well. It felt like TROS was written by a 3rd grader. So bad that TROS is the Only Star Wars movie I only saw once in theater. Couldn’t go back and watch it.
     
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  4. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    I felt the same way the first time I saw it. When asked what I thought, my reply was "I think I hated it." It felt rushed and hacked together, and not a single emotional moment landed for me. Not one.

    By the third time I actually ended up tearing up during a few scenes. I've talked to a couple other people who also had radically different experiences after disliking it on a first viewing. I'm not sure why it turned around for me, but now i find myself really liking it. Which is just fine by me!

    Not saying you would have the same experience, of course. But now that it's out on home digital, you may want to give it another watch sometime with your expectations dialed all the way down, just to see what happens.
     
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  5. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    [​IMG]

    MFW: All the fun stuff happens off screen.
     
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  6. ObiWanKnowsMe

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    I’ll probably end up watching it again once it comes out on Disney Plus.

    And even though I didn’t like it, I do agree that it’s got some good scenes in it. Like when Luke raises the X Wing out of the water, I nearly teared up.

    I also love hearing the main Star Wars theme playing as the massive fleet flies into the Battle of Exegol.

    The return of Palpatine is the main reason why I don’t like this film though. When it was announced Palpatine would be in the movie, I was hoping it would be just momentarily in some form of a holocron or a force vision. I’ve never been a fan of Palpatine returning to life in Legends or Canon.
     
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  7. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Yeah, that's something about which I had to sort of switch off the old grey matter and just accept it as part of the story. Once I did that, it actually works within the story better than I initially felt it did.

    And I've gotta say... I sure don't mind one last SW soundtrack full of variations on the Emperor's theme!

    By the way, that quote of the Star Wars main theme when Lando and that wall of ships show up to save the day was one of the moments when I teared up on my third viewing. Chewie losing it on learning of Leia's death was another.
     
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  8. ObiWanKnowsMe

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    Yeah that was a well done scene also. Chewie really has a breakdown in that scene.

    I hope I don’t remain bitter forever about this movie, and will eventually enjoy watching it for fun. But I know I’ll never consider it my own personal canon. As silly as that sounds :p
     
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  9. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Truth be told, I still have that same problem with the prequels. I tried so many times to learn to like them, but the closest I got was with ROTS. But even there, the fact that Anakin's turn to the dark side is mainly because of his fear of Padme dying... well, who the flip suddenly starts slaughtering toddlers because they are afraid their wife is going to die in childbirth? It just never worked for me, and god knows I tried.

    So yeah, sometimes these things just don't land for us, no matter how much we love Star Wars. All we can do is be open to the films that we aren't crazy about and give them another try from time to time. TROS works for me now, particularly as a conclusion to Rey's journey. But I can absolutely see why some fans don't like it.
     
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  10. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Kinda how I felt with TLJ.

    In many ways, both films fall flat with things they should succeed on.

    And as a fan, there's nothing wrong with feeling disappointed.

    But after a few viewings, I just prefer to enjoy what I can in the movie- and both succeed in some really surprising ways.

    If you're willing to enjoy these movies, even with their faults, you'll have a great time.

    Just wish more people realized that.
     
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  11. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    I had that with TLJ too, actually. And I still have to sorta zone out through the whole Canto Bight thing (though I do kinda dig the DJ character) but as with TROS there's a lot for me to like in that flick.
     
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  12. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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    Agreed. Maybe someone will do a novelization of this.
     
  13. Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi

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    Jedi ghosts.
    What a missed opportunity! If I were to make one change to the rise of skywalker, it would be to include visuals of all the ghosts of Jedi past. Not only would it be a dazzling memorable moment, but for the non-fans, they can actually SEE who is speaking the voices. I am frustrated that we only hear Anakin’s voice, when he was the heart and soul of the saga, and had appeared in return of the Jedi. Long ago, George Lucas’s ROTJ draft included yoda and Ben kenobi’ s ghosts helping to defeat the emperor, and this would have paid homage to that idea. It would have united fans. Personally, that would have been one of the defining moments of the trilogy. But alas...
     
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  14. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    It's like they didn't learn anything from previous mistakes.
     
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  15. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    “I feel very much like, in hindsight, that the trilogy, the last part of the trilogy, needed one vision,” said Brandon on ap appearance on Light The Fuse: A Mission: Impossible Podcast (via CBM), with Markey then adding: “I couldn’t agree more. It’s very strange to have the second film… consciously undo the storytelling of the first film. I’m sorry, that’s what it felt like.”

    https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2020...-undid-the-storytelling-of-the-force-awakens/

    I think this is the root of the missed opportunities for the ST. There were certainly some that were native to TROS that I believe, were it not for the decision and story directions made in TLJ, would not have existed in TROS. And I and many others said as much here repeatedly. It's nice to hear some people who actually worked on the SW projects say the same.
     
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  16. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Official

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    I find it really odd that people worked/are working so hard to try to like something they are disappointed in.

    You guys dont have an obligation to convince yourselves.

    The flick was awful. Even people who worked on it- or Star Wars in general- are hunting at it.

    Look, we got a fun but unoriginal TFA that falls apart in the 3rd act.

    An awful TLJ that waits until the last 30 minutes to stop trying to trick the audience and actually do something.

    Those were bad enough.

    But ROS is not only a bad film, it actively undoes the mythology of the OT.

    It’s the worst of the 3 by far and that is saying something.

    Why do some of you feel the need to watch it over and over again until you convince yourself that you like it?

    Disney rushes this entire trilogy. On top of that, they gave the keys to a very inconsistent and unoriginal brand ambassador to make 2 of them.

    JJ is easily the worst thing to happen to Star Wars from a creative standpoint.

    ROS shows why very clearly. Huge plot holes. No regard for story or complex character arcs. Lacking originality. Uneven directing. The list goes on.

    The trilogy really wasn’t very good if you’re honest, and ROS was by far the worst thing about it.

    It’s ok to admit not liking it. You don’t owe Disney multiple views lol

    Plenty of good films out there. Watch those.
     
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  17. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    I certainly don't feel obligated to like anything that initially disappoints me.

    When it comes to Star Wars, I simply prefer to be able to enjoy as many of the movies and TV shows as possible. Star Wars has been a big part of my world for more than four decades, ever since I was nine. It's on the short list of the things that I am the most grateful for having discovered in this life.

    Were I to have simply dismissed every Star Wars project that hit me sideways the first time I saw it, I would have exactly two Star Wars films that I could watch - ESB and the original 1977 film.

    Even ROTJ, in its rush to suddenly tie up what was to have been about four additional films worth of story, hampered as it was by rehashed story elements and all those flippin' teddy bears, took time to grow on me. And the same was true with every Star Wars film that followed. Fortunately I ended up liking most of them. I still don't like TPM or AOTC, and I don't buy Alden Ehrenreich as Han Solo no matter how much I try. But like ROTS, I at least now find Solo to be watchable, even if neither is really a "go to" Star Wars movie for me.

    I didn't like the Clone Wars movie when I first saw it, and ignored the TV series for a good long while because of it. The movie felt like bad fan fiction, especially the idea that Anakin, who had only very recently been a padawan, would be given an apprentice of his own. And Ahsoka, portrayed as little more than a mouthy little tween in that Clone Wars movie, felt a Hutt's hair away from being the next Jar Jar.

    When I finally gave the series a try, I was pleasantly surprised by a lot of the episodes. And once they got away from all the "Sky guy" crap, even Ahsoka became a better character IMHO.

    None of this is out of any perceived "obligation" to watch movies and shows that I don't like. What I have is a personal vested interest in liking Star Wars. It is simply more enjoyable to me if I like a Star Wars movie than if I dislike it. And most of the time it has taken me a few viewings to get past my initial qualms about a given Star Wars film. To me, it's well worth that bit of effort, even if it doesn't always work, as it didn't with the prequels (though again, ROTS is at least borderline for me.)

    Not saying I think anyone else ought to take this approach if it doesn't suit them, of course. It's just how it's worked for me. And I'm glad that it has.
     
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  18. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    I totally relate with your position towards Star Wars. I too think there's more to gain in "learning" to enjoy Star Wars than to simply dismiss its weakest elements at first sight and refuse to accept it as it is. I takes a high degree of love and devotion to look past the worst parts, and there are some, but I too think in the end it is totally worth it, at least for die hard fans, like you, and me.

    It's more or less consensual that old time fans don't particular enjoy TPM and AOTC. ROTS less so. However, I too didn't like them at first but with time I learned to appreciate them, and these days I can watch TPM and AOTC and have fun doing so. I like to watch the details, and for how bad some parts may be I think it feels totally legit, totally Star Wars.

    I too started seeing Star Wars movies in my 8-9's. It was like I entered in a different world to never leave the day I watched the original Star Wars movie. When I first watched TESB something didn't feel right to me. Han seemed more cranky than usual, like he was very angry, for some reason. Luke seemed way more mature "all of the sudden", and Leia seemed more sad and depressed. The tone was different, more dark and heavy. I was a kid, so I was more used to the fairy tale tone of the original one. With time, I learned to enjoy TESB for what it was, and it was a very different movie from the original. When ROTJ came out, it wasn't love at first sight either. I didn't like the Jabba's opening chapter, and for a while for me the whole film only started for real after they leave Tatooine. In a way, watching TPM made me appreciate more the Jabba sequence, so as the added clip in the enhanced version of Star Wars: A New Hope. I still get goosebumps in the last Luke / Vader confrontation in the Throne Room. That whole sequence is the opus maximus of Star Wars for me. So, again, I learned to appreciate "the new movies" (TESB and ROTJ), and these days I consider them master pieces.

    When TFA came out, I had mixed feelings, again. I still do. Too derivative of the original Star Wars for me, and I'm having more trouble "learning it" this time around. I can appreciate most of it, and there's very cool stuff in there. However, perhaps not enough time has passed but I still don't feel like re-watching it. TLJ is a mixed bag for me. Some of the very best Star Wars moments there (e.g. Holdo Maneuver, Snoke's Throne Room sequences) but also some of the worst stuff for me, like the Canto Bight sequence, and the whole Star Destroyer infiltration sequences. Those parts didn't work for me, and I'm not sure I can "learn to like them" this time. TROS was an enjoyable disappointment, if that was possible. There's parts I like but I really have a hard time with most of it.

    These days I consider that I fully "accepted" the prequel trilogy, and even like it now. However, I remember very well not liking it a bit when I first saw those movies. The original trilogy is among the best in life there is. As for R1 and Solo, I'm grateful these movies were made and they brought me a lot of joy, especially R1. The spirit there was 100% Star Wars, it really worked for me. As for Solo, I could have passed without it, but I'm pleased it was made, and it does enrich the story.


    Now, how will the new trilogy work for me on the long run? I'm not sure. I still have very mixed feelings about the whole thing. For me Palpatine was dead, and ROTJ felt really good as a finale. So, I'd prefer they went with a different approach. It could be Plagueis, an alien invasion, the first Sith/Jedi, or a third faction of Force wielders, like Grey Jedi or something. But no. It was Palpatine, again. I understand it comes full circle with TPM, however that circle had been closed in ROTJ.

    Anyway, I'm open to continue "learning to enjoy" the new trilogy, and I'm looking for new Star Wars going forward. I loved The Mandalorian. More of that please. New trilogy? Count me in. I love Star Wars.
     
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  19. DEKKA129

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    The final face-off between Luke and Vader in the throne room is, IMHO, what makes ROTJ. Especially that brilliant musical passage when Luke finally snaps and tries to kill Vader. I remember that raising every hair on my neck and arms the first time I saw it back in '83, and I ran out and bought the soundtrack album the second it came out (which I recall being shortly after opening day) and was gutted that they'd left the best piece of music in the entire soundtrack off of the official release.
     
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  20. Dusty S.

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    I'm actually one of those whispered of people that LIKED The Rise of Skywalker. I was never not aware of its issues but I really like it. And I say this as someone who grew up all through the 80s and remember when the Star Wars trilogy meant three ratty VHS tapes.

    But there's a great deal I'd have done differently were they my decisions to make. I guess I'll start at the beginning.

    The name.

    I think The Rise of Solo would've been a better fit but more on that in a bit.

    They dropped the ball on the entire point of the end of The Last Jedi. That shot in Rise of the MASSIVE fleet of ships? That's how the movie should've opened because it wouldn't made more sense seeing how Luke's sacrifice was meant to inspire a new Rebellion. The movie should've opened with the Resistance/Rebels HAMMERING the First Order.

    The first shot of the movie.

    I'd have had the first shot after the crawl be a First Order Star Destroyer entering the frame the exact same way as the one in A New Hope. Then you see that the blockade runner is chasing it. Literally opposite to the opening shot of A New Hope. Then the camera pans around and you see that massive fleet behind the blockade runner. I think that'd have been cool but others will likely disagree lol. After this would be when Kylo finds the Emperor and gets the thousands of ships.

    I flirt with the idea of making the alien who says "win the war!" Jar Jar. And the his head is on a table later. Thst might've been a big much though.

    More for Finn to do. When he and the other defected storm troopers are at the Death Star wreckage they could've found old storm trooper armor and used it.

    During the Battle of Exegol, Finn and the others are in the white trooper armor fighting the red Sith Troopers. Plus they could've used the armor to infiltrate one of the planet killing Star Destroyers and aim it at Exegol.

    At the end, have C-3PO and R2-D2 acknowledge that they remember the moisture farm as Luke boyhood home and have Threepio walk to Shmi's grave and wipe the dust from the name.

    The old woman asks what Rey's name is and she looks over and sees Luke and Leia's Force ghosts standing with the Millennium Falcon behind them (since Han couldn't be there) and then Ben Solo dressed similar to Han in A New Hope appears beside Luke and Leia. Then she gives her name as Rey Solo (because of Ben and because she seemed to have had a better relationship with Han). Then have the last shot(s) of the movie show Rey turn towards the twin suns. Segues into Obi-Wan handing baby Luke to Owen and Beru in front of the sons. Then Luke in A New Hope looking at the suns and then Rey with BB-8, Artoo, Threepio and Chewie in silhouette in front of the twin sunset.

    There's really just tons that would've given it a nudge here or there to be better. Maybe none of that's any good lol.

    But, even having thought about changes hard enough to have all that, I AM still firmly in the "thumbs up" camp..
     
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