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Missed Opportunities of the ST - What Could’ve Been

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by JediJurist, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I really enjoyed TROS (and still do when I watch it), but it's biggest problem is the sympton of the ST: They are good standalone movies and poor Saga/Trilogy movies. I think JJ knows how to inject the 'fun factor' into movies as TFA and TROS are pure fun/enjoyable. The problem was from day one that the ST never broke any new ground in terms of a story that was any different from the past narrative, nor did it expand the Saga either. It honestly feels like 'here's more SW movies with The Skywalkers and we're going to name them 7,8,9!'

    So to answer the OP's question, the 'what could have been' is the macro of macro problems with the ST: what was the point and why did it need to exist? It's so interesting that for me, the PT is frustrating to watch but serves a purpose to exist, where the ST is fun/enjoyable to watch, but doesn't really serve a purpose to exist.
     
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  2. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    In saying that, I would love to hear fans who think 7,8,9 tie into 4,5,6 or 1-6 as that is what these forums are for. It's not just to gush and complain, it's to hear different perspectives and force each of us to think outside our box.
     
  3. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    You are spot on. The biggest issue with the ST, IMHO, will always be that it has no compelling narrative reason to exist. ROTJ already provided the saga with a satisfying and conclusive ending, served on a silver tray, wrapped with a big red bow.

    The ST exists mainly because Lucas needed something to sweeten the pot when he decided to find a buyer for LFL. So he wrote up treatments for three sequel films and Disney jumped at the chance to acquire the SW franchise.

    I suspect that it's the very fact that the ST films are inherently disconnected from the stories that came before that allows me to cut them enough slack to enjoy them for what they are. As you so aptly point out, the PT is, from a narrative perspective, hard-wired into the OT. The OT films establish a ton of backstory in addition to being numbered episodes 4-6. The PT films absolutely needed to be made. IMHO Lucas bricked it badly in the crafting and telling of those stories, which struck an even more sour note for me because the PT tale really did matter in context with the OT. They needed to work, to develop and expand upon the backstory elements presented in the OT, and to my mind they failed miserably on that point.

    The ST films simply don't matter in that way. They are ancillary material upon which nothing from the OT or the PT really hinges. IMHO that leaves them free to thrive or fail on their own merits or on the lack thereof.

    You ask if anyone here has any thoughts on how the ST ties in with the rest of the saga. One thing that occurred to me after a few viewings is how the "shocking" take on Luke's character in TLJ actually fits a lot better with his OT character than I first thought.

    For one thing, OT Luke was always an idealist, and a rather humble one at that. After reluctantly beginning to train students he has the whole thing go to hell on him due in part to his own lack of judgment (or so he believes.) The broken man we meet in TLJ makes perfect sense to me, given that.

    But far more to the point, what did Luke do in ESB? He impulsively ran off to save his friends instead of making the wise choice and staying to complete his training, and in the process almost ended up destroying everything that mattered to him and to his friends (some of whom had to rescue HIM instead.)

    Why does he stay on Ahch-To and close himself off from the Force instead of going back to help Leia fight the First Order? Because that is exactly what he'd do, after the Bespin debacle years before. He mistakenly thought that he could only make a bad situation worse by returning from his exile, and thought he was making the wise choice that he once failed to make.

    And then he finally learns that the lessons of one's youth are rarely the lessons of middle and old age.

    That character journey of Luke's is a big part of makes TLJ work for me, not only as it's own story but as part of the ongoing saga.
     
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  4. Spursfan77

    Spursfan77 Rebel Commander

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    They should of just had the original characters doing most of the heavy lifting throughout the new films. Not have Luke skywalker in it till the end of TFA was the first huge mistake. He should of been one of the main characters again. A proper missed opportunity
     
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  5. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    The ST was not about the old characters but about the new ones. In my opinion we saw a lot of the old classic characters.
     
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  6. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Disney set out to destroy our hero’s and obliterate the Skywalker legacy and for what? They bought Star Wars to destroy it? Why not just make their own space movie?
    --- Double Post Merged, May 9, 2020, Original Post Date: May 9, 2020 ---
    I would love to hear Dave Feloni’s real opinion on the ST.
     
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  7. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    I agree that the ST was way too similar to the OT. Lucas felt the same way. It was too much retro and not enough innovation. I appreciate Rian Johnson for at least attempting to push things in a new direction. But then JJ came back reversed everything.

    That being said, the ST is still a fun series of movies.
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    God no.

    I literally chuckled in TFA when I heard Palp's voice. I never felt like he was shoe-horned in.

    Boring. Turns Snoke into a plot device instead of an atagonist to Kylo, pushing his growth.

    I would have been bored. I connected with Luke much more this time around than I have ever in my life before.

    Next up, Indiana Jones without mystical artifacts containing super powers!
    Pass.

    M Night Shyamalan Star Wars? No thanks.

    Nope.
    If we could, we wouldn't be loafing around on a forum. We would be working in the business.
    If people think they can do better...go for it. Stop writing about how it could be made better on a forum, and put that energy into rewriting the film and release it for all to see.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  9. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    This argument is nonsense.

    The film business is one of the hardest and most unforgiving work spaces ever. Just look at all the great independent or short films which get almost none recognition, while action blockbuster like Marvel are known by everyone. Or let's stick to Star Wars- Colin Trevorrow actually did write a better or at least a more coherent Episode IX, but he still wasn't allowed to direct it.

    Yes, everyone can write, but releasing your work is the hard part. Not everyone has the power, the money or the reputation to achieve that. It's much easier if you're a well known person like JJ Abrams.
     
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  10. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    What I was getting at is that there is a massive disjoint between people saying they can make a better version of something and people actually putting out any material.
    Being in the business doesn't equal blockbuster.
    If you create and have interest in monetary exchange, and work on your craft, you're in.
    Heck, even if you just do it as a hobby.

    You write.

    The point was that if we could make a better version, then...make it. Write it. You yourself do this, and you do it more admirably because you write your own stories in their own tangents; not just rewrites (nothing wrong with rewrites; it's just more admirable to write from scratch).

    It's really quite lazy to just sit back and claim we can, without ever doing it.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #70 Jayson, May 15, 2020
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  11. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    Filoni*

    He'll probably spend 3 movies rescuing a baby creature and protecting it (TCW movie, The Mandolorian, and first Episode of Rebels all pretty much had the same plot point), Have Ashoka redeem Luke and train Rey while defeating the Emporer at the same time and have Rex unify the galaxy and help defeat the First Order. One of the movies will feature a robot floating in space and singing. That would of been the ST version of Jedi Rocks

    In reality, he probably doesn't care since he was never tied to the sequels int he first place. He's done some good but he has also has made tons of stinkers as well and I disagree with some of the concepts he's introduced in SW. There's a reason why George didn't put him in charge of Lucasfilm when he could of.
     
  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Yeah... I love Filoni and his shows, even with their weird quirks (people who hate the AP-4 singing in space scene simply hate fun).

    But I agree, as great as he is, he's much proven in the serialized format of TV. Maybe he'd knock it out of the park with a movie, but I honestly am not sure I'd want him to chance it... and I'm not sure he would, either.

    He can get away with a purgill episode or two every now and then, but if he made a single movie that the fans didn't like he'd immediately become a target of the toxic side of the fanbase. Look at the fall of Whedon, for instance. Filoni doesn't want that.
     
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  13. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    I like fun but that scene killed it for me. It felt out of place for me. It's like something you'll see in Family Guy or something. World Between Worlds is a interesting concept but it can and did open a can of worms in the SW universe if they don't trend carefully with it.

    I'm not totally hating on Dave but he hasn't proven himself to run a 4 billion IP. People on there think he'll just be in-charge of the overall story and that's all his job would contain but fail to account the business side of of the job. Dave is a great story teller but not a business man. To my knowledge, he doesn't know about managing toys, marketing, books, movies, etc. You think someone like him could go toe-to-toe with the President of EA and say "stop f**king up our IP"? I don't think so. I'm not defending KK and I do believe she has mishandled the SW IP but I don't think Dave is the answer. Kevin Feige produced 4 major blockbusters before he got his current role (including Spiderman 2 which is universally praised as the best spider man movie to date). What did Dave do? 2 good TV shows, a terrible cartoon movie and 2 live action tv episodes (The Mandolorian success is more on Jon Favreau than Dave). I just want to see one major blockbuster produced by Dave before we make him the Kevin Feige of Star Wars.

    *sorry for the rant..lol*
     
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  14. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    That happened in the OT, imo. Even in the prequels, when there was a specific plan for Anakin's fall, like how incredibly fleshed out the worlds were in the Phantom Menace and Anakin's Romance with Padme in TPM when he gives her his Jasper Snippet. Small details that change from film to film. I don't really care about a saga or a trilogy. You have to understand, there are pressures from the studio, creative differences between writers and the directors, or even pressure from the public and filming trends that shape these movies. One movie to another is going to be different, as much as people want the movies to be the same or be part of a coherent trilogy. It would have been better if all three films in a trilogy were done at the same time, which is probably why LOTR is one of the more consistent and satisfying trilogies that I can think of.

    I don't get why people hunger so much for a fulfilling trilogy, I'd rather have a fulfilling film (TESB or ANH) and call it a day and use my imagination to fill in the blanks, then have an inferior (yet still interesting) film, such as, ROTJ, to create a systematic three-part "ending".
     
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  15. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    You can tell no one had their heart in it. Luke was not my head Luke. Still depressed on how he was diminished. Smoke should have returned and been Plaguis. Palpatine shoulda remained dead as his survival diminished Anakin.
     
  16. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Sorry, but that is the most hyperbolic conclusion that I've seen.
    Just because we don't like something doesn't mean we are clear to state the reality about motives or enthusiasm of those who worked on it.

    If you read interviews, watch interviews, or watch the documentaries on the films, you won't get that picture - ESPECIALLY not with TROS.

    People were CRYING on set from being emotionally moved from what they were doing, they were dancing around and hugging, high fiving, etc...

    To say this production wasn't enthused to be working on this film is just grossly incorrect.

    It started before the camera even rolled. Abrams, Terrio, et. al. spent a lot of time in Bad Robot studios, taking over the whiteboards in the studio and filled with notes on every Star Wars film, and then started working back from there and they were very much personally invested in what they were doing.

    "So we actually started with just a whiteboard. At Bad Robot, there are these big rooms with just white dry erase boards. They literally just surround you everywhere. It’s very dramatic. The wall opens and the boards come out. So we started just with that. Literally, just writing and asking, “What do we want to see happen? These characters, where do we want to see them go? What are the feelings that we want to have? What are the stories that we want to tell? What things do we feel were unresolved either from VII or from VIII or even from Episodes I, II, III, IV, V, VI?” We kind of started with that and then, gradually, that dry erase board became a document that we just called “The Boards.” It was just a Word document that had all these ideas, which eventually grew to be, like, 121 pages of things that we would like to see.

    Gradually, Darwinism takes over, and you cross out the things that aren’t quite making it. We started just from our own hearts and brains about where we wanted it to go, which is, you know, a great thing for a franchise of this size, because it didn’t feel corporate at all. We were just in Bad Robot, in a room. Just me and J.J., Michelle [Rejwan, Lucasfilm’s vice president of live-action production], and our other producer and Kathy Kennedy, of course. It was this process of iterating and then working with the designers, Rick Carter and Kevin Jenkins, who are both geniuses.

    Rick, I’m sure you know his work, but Kevin hadn’t had a production designer credit before this film. He had been involved in concept work and art direction, and all kinds of position on Star Wars. He just knew everything about Star Wars, and his whole life he had been sketching Ralph McQuarrie drawings. I mean, from the time that he was a kid. So I’d have Rick — who’s, like, you know, this mystic — talking, talking about deep dives into the subconscious. Then Kevin is drawing, and then J.J., Michelle, and me and Kathy are all in the room. Then you add to that Roger [Guyett] at [Industrial Light & Magic], who is also a genius. I still have no how they did anything in this movie. So it became this little creative sandbox where we really could try anything. The thing about a movie of this size is that you can imagine anything. Anything you can imagine, literally, can be realized in some way. It’s the only time in my life that I will ever have an experience like this.

    Not only that, but your heart is just brimming over because it’s Star Wars and it’s these characters that you love. They’re like your relatives. You love them. I feel that I know and love Luke and Lando better than I know some of my family, and I treat them with as much love and warmth as I would treat family. Or even more. So to have that at the warm emotional core of things, plus to have the ability to stage anything — any battle, that is, any event that is galaxy history — on a canvas that size, it’s a one-chance-in-a-lifetime thrill."
    -Chris Terrio​
     
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  17. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    I don't hate the ROS or the sequel trilogy; however, I do believe that something went wrong with the execution. I'm not gonna cry over a space movie with wizards for kids... but it could've been done better. In fact, even with Carrie gone, duel of the fates would have been a much better film to end the sequel trilogy.
     
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  18. Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi

    Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi Rebel Official

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    So many little things to tie the saga together were missed. Just showing Anakin Skywalker’s face and the other ghost jedi would have delighted me. Also, having the Duel of the Fates song at Exoggol would have been a nice tie-in. Also, I don’t mean to be savage towards Chewbacca and 3PO (love those characters) but they should have “died” in the moments they were thought to have died. That would have given Rey’s Force lightning lots of gravity, as well as show the true meaning of sacrifice for 3Po.
     
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  19. JCC

    JCC Rebel Trooper

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    You know, I don't have a problem with Force Awakens. It may have been derivative of Episode IV, but it was a good movie. I thought the setup was good, the story was interesting, and I liked the way they re-introduced the characters. I saw that movie 3 or 4 times in the theater, and I still enjoy watching it. What was really interesting was the character of Kylo Ren. It would have been easy to make him the perfect son of his parents, the "next generation" of New Republic heroes. But to make him totally reject what Han and Leia had done, turn to the dark side, and destroy everything they accomplished was really dramatic.

    The trilogy just fell apart with Last Jedi. It wasn't the setup, or Luke in exile on Ach-To....that part I understood and it made sense after the tragedy of Ben Solo's fall. What I didn't like, in no particular order was:

    1) No answer to any of the questions raised in Force Awakens (Rey's background, where did the lightsaber come from, where is Luke's famous green lightsaber, where did Snoke come from, etc) and the audience almost shamed during the movie for wanting to know.

    2) Luke has a great character arc. He finds the strength and wisdom to pull out of his funk, has one decent scene...and then dies. I mean, you don't have Han Solo, Carrie Fisher is dead, this trilogy needed at least one major OT hero character in Episode IX other than Chewbacca. And the lack of Anakin Skywalker anywhere in the trilogy is just inexcusable.

    3) They introduce Admiral Holdo, make her a completely unbelievable and unrealistic commander, and then kill her off. I agree with others that her demise would have been a perfect ending for Admiral Ackbar or even Princess Leia if done right.

    4) Rey is too perfect throughout the movie. At the time my thought was that she had trained with Luke as a child at his Jedi Temple and somehow lost her memory but her Jedi instincts were still there. That would have made some sense and it would have been a really interesting story.

    The problem then became that TROS had to become the course correction film, but to do that, and to tie everything together was just too tall of an order for a 2 hour film. I really wish JJ had split it up, or Disney had gone with a 3+ hour runtime. There are so many points where an extra scene or two would have worked, or just a slowing down of the action.

    And, I really wish Luke had played more of a role in the movie. I was thinking recently how awesome it would have been if Luke had been the one confronting Palpatine after he knocked out Rey and Ben. And if Luke realized then, like Yoda in the prequels, his biggest mistake as a Jedi Master was to believe that the Sith no longer existed. Rather, Palpatine had been playing the long game ever since the throne room on ROTJ, just like the Sith always had, and Luke had been too blind to see it coming. And then a climactic lightsaber duel between Luke and Palpatine. That would have been awesome to see on screen. And if that's the point where Luke has to die, and Palpatine is destroyed by a combination of Ben and Rey...I'd be cool with that.

    Maybe just give me some real force ghosts during that scene, especially Anakin (remember him? The "Chosen One"???) and I'd be good with that.
     
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  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    1. Unequivocally false. Not liking the answer about Rey's background isn't the same as it not being answered. Luke's green saber is never a point of TFA. Snoke's origin also not a question posed by the film.

    2. You are blaming TLJ for Carrie's unfortunate passing here? TLJ was finished before Carrie died. What the hell?

    3. Why is she unbelievable or unrealistic? And no it wouldn't have been perfect for them.

    4. Rey is hardly perfect. But good try.
     
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