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Missed Opportunities of the ST - What Could’ve Been

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by JediJurist, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Rebel Official

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    i agree, but as a side note, it would have been funny to have ackbar point the Raddus at the Supremacy and then go ITS A TRAAAP
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 4, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 4, 2020 ---
    since luke showed that force ghosts can affect physical objects, it would have been cool for all the dead jedi to come back as ghosts and bum rush palpatine.
     
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  2. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

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    I would probably like ST even more if we had Jaina Solo instead of Rey. Brother-sister relationship is unique by it's nature and I find it truly fascinating if it developes into a sword duel to the death.
    But, I got that from Altered Carbon, so my personal biggest missed opportunity is the Sith fleet and it's troopers.
     
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  3. JCC

    JCC Clone

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    1. Unequivocally false. Not liking the answer about Rey's background isn't the same as it not being answered. Luke's green saber is never a point of TFA. Snoke's origin also not a question posed by the film.

    2. You are blaming TLJ for Carrie's unfortunate passing here? TLJ was finished before Carrie died. What the hell?

    3. Why is she unbelievable or unrealistic? And no it wouldn't have been perfect for them.

    4. Rey is hardly perfect. But good try.

    TLJ never addressed Rey's background except to say she came from nowhere. That's fine if TLJ is Episode VII, but not if you create a mystery box in the first movie and refuse to answer it. And as proof I'm right, JJ walked that back in Episode IX and gave her a back story (sort of). And I would say Luke's green lightsaber is pretty famous from Return of the Jedi. Where is it? Snoke's origin is an important question, because his existence as this "powerful Jedi" contradicts the entire preceding saga. If he's so powerful, where's he been for the last 60 years? Darth Vader and the Emperor wiped out anyone with force powers who was not directly serving the Empire.

    Carrie Fisher died an entire year (12/27/16) before TLJ was released. There was plenty of time to re-edit footage to give her an appropriate sendoff in TLJ, rather than try to use old footage to create a meaningless appearance for her in TROS.

    I have never heard of a military commander playing mind games or "hide the ball" with her senior officers as to what the plan will be, especially when it looks like the boss has no plan or is contemplating something crazy. In a situation like that, every person on that ship should have joined Poe in his mutiny. And I'm sorry, a person who just appeared on screen 20 minutes ago in Part 8 of a 9 part movie series should not be the one going out in a heroic blaze of glory when you just killed off a beloved character (Ackbar) in the most ignominious way, and also when you clearly need to write someone else (Leia) out of the story.

    And so, with Han and Leia gone, why kill off Luke too? I understand giving him a sendoff in TROS if necessary, but all we ever got to see of Luke Skywalker throughout the entire saga was boy becomes Jedi, and then angry old man. We never got to see Luke do anything as a Jedi except that last fake-out scene in TLJ.

    And so as far as Rey, I can't think of any major flaws, can you? There is no character arc. She goes from powerful force user to powerful force user. No drama, no hang-ups, no challenges to overcome. There isn't even a love story. She's picked up the Jedi thing faster than Luke, Anakin, Ben Kenobi, or anyone. It's a good thing they did make her a Palpatine, otherwise there's no explanation for her being LITERALLY THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVER!

    But go ahead, tell me how all three movies are wonderful and there's no missed opportunities of any kind, every character was developed completely, and there's no reason for this thread.
     
    #83 JCC, Jul 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
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  4. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Attuned

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    But what has 'picking up the Jedi thing' and Jedi training got to do with anything? The ability to use the Force and being a Jedi are not the same thing.

    If Jedi training is so important to being able to use the Force, then who trained the first Jedi?

    As Luke himself says, the Jedi don't 'own' the Force. It's no theirs. All the Jedi really do is just provide and share a philosophy they themselves created and built around the existence of the Force. Plus some lasersword fighting courses, which are not essential to being able to use the Force.

    The 'explanation' of her power was that heritage and bloodlines are NOT important to having an ability with the Force - and never was. It wasn't important to Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon Jinn or any of the other Jedi, so why is it so important when it comes to Rey? It's implied in the prequels that potential Jedi are taken from their parents at a very young age. But there is no notion that those parents were powerful with the Force. If they were then why are they not in the Jedi Order already?

    In short, the explanation was Rey can be just born with it - like anybody can be, like "broomboy" was, and like most other Jedi of the past were. If you like, she was born with a high midochlorian count.

    Also - Luke spent how long "training" with Yoda? Two days? Three? Where does the idea that learning this stuff takes a long time come from anyway? The prequels? If we think a person needs to spend the whole of their formative years learning to become a Jedi and use the Force on the basis of what the PT shows us, then I'd say we have misunderstood the PT.
     
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  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    1. That IS addressing it. You not liking is still not the same as them not a addressing it. And that doesn't prove you right, it proves JJ is woefully lacks creativity and balls.
    And who cares about the green lightsaber in the movie? it's never a point of contention in the movie. It's a fan service thing.
    Where Snoke is from is not important in the context of these films. It's important to fans who want to win a trivia contest.

    2. You are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Wrong. So an appropriate send off is her kamikazing a ship before her best moments in the Maclunkey movie? You are terrible at this.

    3. This has been gone over so many times. Poe has just been demoted. Publicly. He just destroyed half the Resistance fleet while disobeying orders. The First Order tracked them through lightspeed; previously unheard of. Resistance leaders think there is a mole. So they keep things absolutely need-to-know. A guy who was just demoted is not need to know. You are so wildly wrong on how things work in the military yet so confident in it. The point of Holdo being the one to make the sacrifice is to show she was always right and always on the right side and that Poe was wrong. Holdo was Resistance to the core and Maclunkey good at it.

    4. Because Leia wasn't gone when the movie went into post? This isn't difficult. Filming finished in July 2016. That's 5 months into post.

    5. She's overzealous. She's impulsive. She's full of self doubt. She lacks purpose and direction. She can be self destructive. She pushes people away who can help her.

    And I don't think these movies are without missed opportunities. I just think your list is so tired, worn out and lazy, that it reeks of trolling and baiting.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 6, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 6, 2020 ---
    I think it's pretty clear from what people "expected" from the ST, people have misunderstood Star Wars for a very long time
     
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  6. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    In response to the posts above, I realize that Luke’s death in The Last Jedi was EXTREMELY controversial, but it’s also worth noting that there were conversations about reworking the footage they had before it was released to give Leia a sendoff in that film (and I’m assuming they would’ve had Luke survive, in that case) but everyone felt very strongly that they should release the version of The Last Jedi that Carrie thought would be released when she passed away.

    Not to mention, if you rewrite The Last Jedi to kill off Leia, most of her big moments in the Sequel Trilogy get eliminated entirely. She doesn’t have any opportunities to show off her Force abilities –– which, regardless of whether or not you like the idea or how it was executed, is pretty crucial to the character and something a lot of fans had hoped to see for years –– and she doesn’t have her big reunion scene with Luke.

    Even though the footage of her in The Rise of Skywalker is limited, including her in the story and giving her the role that they did allows her to have a complete arc that ties in to the overall story better. If she had died in The Last Jedi, she would’ve served very little purpose to the story and her death would’ve been pretty meaningless. Sacrificing herself to bring her son back and restore balance was a far more noble end that fit her character much better.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    also this shot:

    leia-last-jedi.gif
     
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  8. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    UGH, such a gorgeous shot –– honestly, Carrie was SO fantastic in The Last Jedi. My only genuine disappointment with that film was that she wasn’t in it more (to be honest, that’s probably the most disappointing thing about the entire trilogy for me). She was so wonderful in it, and I’m just really glad that they were able to properly finish out her story the way it was meant to be finished (more or less) and that it was such a fitting farewell to her. :)
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Truly a shame we didn't get that last hurrah with her but she was so good and it's the first time in DECADES Carrie looked so alive on screen it would have been a shame to alter it.
     
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  10. Slave of the Republic

    Slave of the Republic Clone Commander

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    I believe the producers tried to replicate with Star Wars what they did with Marvel, in the sense of giving more freedom—within the (in)famous boundaries and rules that come with the territory—to the writers and directors to bring their flavour to the films. That's great in itself, but with superheroes it may have been easier as you already have different lores, different styles, different flavours. Star Wars is a dynasty—not even 10 films yet in the main Episodes canon—so when they they didn't keep things tight, they were bound to disappoint a few million people. Star Wars productions are larger than life, but you can feel how they went from great new beginnings with TFA to a bold but kind of pointless act in TLJ, then trying to backtrack and salvage what they could from TFA (director included) and well, the rest is history.

    P.S. Would have loved to see Rey go full Dark Side and Kylo being able to help bring her back after training with Maz Kanata and Luke's Force Ghost in Dagobah 2.0
     
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  11. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    I agree entirely. I would’ve LOVED to see her in The Rise of Skywalker in all her glory –– and truthfully, I think her role in that film was more satisfying than what she would’ve done in Duel of the Fates –– but I think JJ did a really good job, all things considered.
    That’s a really interesting concept. I’ve seen other people pitch the idea of Rey going entirely to the Dark Side in The Last Jedi, while Kylo returns to the light and has to try and bring her back, and I think it would’ve been a really interesting thing if executed well. (I’m confident Rian could do that if he had chosen to go that direction with The Last Jedi, although I’m not sure how that concept would work if JJ tried to do it.)

    I’m a bit bummed that Luke’s role in The Rise of Skywalker was essentially a glorified cameo. It would’ve been nice to see him play some part in Rey’s training, although I’m THRILLED that they decided to make Leia her new master. (That was honestly one of my biggest hopes for the film, so I’m glad they went in that direction and made Leia a Jedi.) But it would’ve been great to see Luke interact with Kylo (or have some more screentime with Rey and/or Leia) in The Rise of Skywalker. I would DEFINITELY consider that one of the biggest missed opportunities in that film. I’m just glad that the bit we did get of him was as good as it was –– I know not everyone liked his role in The Rise of Skywalker, but I personally loved it.
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    It's difficult to say exactly what her final role in Duel of the Fates would have been since we only have an early draft and they never got to a final one. Perhaps the role was beefed up or perhaps they had plans with Leia post Duel to be the shepherd to a new era of Star Wars.

    And IMO, JJ's use of Luke in TROS and TFA confirms he was more or less scared to do too much with him especially in the wake of TLJ and the vitriol Rian Johnson received. Luke is very much the Jesus of Star Wars and Rian made his Last Temptation.
     
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  13. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    That’s very true. I would like to think her role was going to be beefed up a bit. My understanding was that Colin Trevorrow exited the project largely because he didn’t know how to rework his script around Carrie’s death, and based on Leia’s role in Duel of the Fates, it seems like it would’ve been pretty easy for them to rework that version of the script, which makes me think there were probably altered plans with a larger role for her.

    I agree entirely about JJ and Luke. If I remember correctly, JJ even admitted in at least one interview that he put Luke at the end of The Force Awakens in part because he didn’t know how to handle the character. I know they really struggled early on in the script-writing process because whenever they tried to drop him into the narrative of The Force Awakens, he immediately overshadowed Rey and the other characters. I understand the fear, but there were definitely some missed opportunities with Luke as a result of that hesitation. I’m glad that Rian gave him such a large role in The Last Jedi, though –– it really gave Mark Hamill the opportunity to give what I consider to be a career-defining performance. He blew me away in that film, and it’s a shame that it was ultimately so divisive. (And I couldn’t agree more –– the Luke/Jesus comparison is 100% spot on!)
     
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  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Definitely seems that way. I'd bet they came to agree on adding Bendemption and CT beefs up Carrie's role then she passes and....yeah

    I don't even really blame JJ for punting Luke to RJ in TFA. The new characters never get a chance if Luke is in scene 1.
    I do blame him for not doing anything with the work RJ did for Luke in terms of his relationship with Kylo Ren or Rey.
     
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  15. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    Yeah, I always felt like the first two films of the trilogy were clearly setting up Leia to have a significant role in redeeming Ben, so I’m glad that paid off in The Rise of Skywalker in some regard. That being said, Adam Driver has said there was a plan for Kylo’s character from the very beginning, and in a lot of ways, I wouldn’t say his role in Duel of the Fates is really a redemption in the sense that most people probably expected or hoped for. It makes me wonder if there was a version of The Rise of Skywalker where Ben lives, even though the final version obviously has him die and be reunited with Leia in the afterlife.

    As far as JJ’s handling of Luke goes, I have to agree –– his role in The Force Awakens had a huge payoff, minimal as it may have been. It was a perfect setup, and Rian gave him quite a bit to work with as far as Luke’s character goes for Episode IX, and JJ seemed to just... continue to dodge it entirely. He really did the absolute bare minimum with Luke. He barely served more of a purpose than Maz Kanata, which was literally just to fill in exposition for Leia’s story being that she couldn’t do it herself. (He has the additional role of playing cheerleader for Rey, though.) I LOVED The Rise of Skywalker and I loved what we got of Luke in that film, but there could’ve been more. His relationships with Rey and Kylo absolutely should’ve been expanded on and I’m really bummed that they weren’t.
     
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  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    As great as it was to see Harrison again, that should have been Luke IMO.
     
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  17. Cheryl Regan

    Cheryl Regan Rebel Trooper

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    I know it's a cliche but I did want at least one scene with the 'old' gang back together even for a short time.

    I also think there should have been more scenes with Rey, Finn and Poe as a group in the first two films. It think it would have made their bond stronger. They left it too late, in my humble opinion.

    Definitely, more Knights of Ren. They made a LOT of hype regarding them. Also, I think some of Luke's students should have survived the temple attack. We first believed that only Obi-wan and Yoda survived the first Jedi purge, then we got Ahsoka and Kanan, so why not the second purge?
     
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  18. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    Yeah, I always felt like, with Luke as the undisputed main hero of the Original Trilogy, it would’ve made the most sense for him to be the mentor character in The Force Awakens. I think Han fills that role well and it works out, because having Luke be the Obi-Wan figure of that film still would’ve put him in the position of overshadowing Rey and the other heroes. But that being said, I think a lot of fans expected the original trio to be front and center in the first film and then absent (or mostly in the background) for the next two. If they planned on having each film focus on one-third of the trio, Luke should’ve been it in The Force Awakens, I agree.

    It would’ve been really nice to see the original trio back together again one last time, I agree. I was pretty content with Leia’s reunions with Han and Luke, but I would’ve loved to see the old gang reunite as a whole. I’m not sure when it would’ve made sense, though, based on the way the trilogy was laid out. Honestly, I think the most “logical” reunion –– which would still require some heavy explaining for many fans –– would be if they included Han with Luke and Leia’s Force ghosts at the end of The Rise of Skywalker.

    I couldn’t agree more about Rey, Finn and Poe. The respective relationships between Rey/Finn and Finn/Poe were laid out, but the group dynamic needed a bit more love, and waiting until The Rise of Skywalker to flesh it out was a HUGE mistake.
     
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  19. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Definitely Luke (the real one) and Leia together

    what a lot of people have said about having the original three together

    anakin

    tying in every single sw property all of the way into ix

    jar jar binks as the main villian
     
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  20. ReadyComicsRoll

    ReadyComicsRoll Rebel Trooper

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    Pretty sure others have said the same, if not here, definitely somewhere on the net, but the biggest missed opportunity, in my opinion, is Finn.

    We had all of this promotional material with The Force Awakens (it's even in the name), with Finn holding a lightsaber, he wields it multiple times within the film, and we even get many hints at his Force sensitivity from start to end of the film (rewatch the intro scene alone, where Kylo senses and looks at Finn, out of all of the other Stormtroopers). TLJ does nothing with this, and we get a comment outside of TROS that Finn was going to tell Rey he was Force sensitive, but never happens.

    Having Finn go with Rey to see Luke at the end of TLJ, undergoing Jedi training, and ultimately being at Rey's side as a fellow Jedi during the conflict would have made things a lot more interesting than the direction they took him in the actual films.
     
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