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Missed Opportunities of the ST - What Could’ve Been

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by JediJurist, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    P.S. Would have loved to see Rey go full Dark Side and Kylo being able to help bring her back after training with Maz Kanata and Luke's Force Ghost in Dagobah 2.0

    Bring this person back; bring that person back. Yada yada. I don't want to sound rude, and I still appreciate the themes of redemption in Star Wars, but often I think that they could be handled better in some cases. While I think that the sentimentality tied with redemption is interesting in ROTJ, there's not much of a reason for Vader to go good if it's still unclear if he's joined the rebels/decided not to conquer the galaxy or decided to defeat the Emperor just to save his son. I guess both? Even though it was a main part of his motivation? This part seems unresolved in the final film, while it was more clear in the earliest drafts that he was moved by Luke to cease his plans to conquer the galaxy/ have power (reluctance to directly kill Luke). I guess there's still some of that in the final film (Vader disliking/being pained about Luke being tortured by the Emperor).

    Why do so many fans want a character to go dark, only to bring that person back? Isn't it more about HOW IT'S DONE?

    Tell me HOW TO DO IT RIGHT, TO MAKE A CHARACTER GO DARK, whether it's done simply or not. Make it complex, shake it up a bit like TESB does.

    Like what is Kylo supposed to do? (Also how id force training with Maz supposed to help? I thought that psychological reasoning would work better at convincing someone to change sides if being on "the wrong football team", assuming that Rey would still be both good and evil like TESB and ROTJ Vader, was an issue.)

    Rey: I'm dark now. Power!

    Kylo: Don't Rey, I love you. Or... I wanted to love you.

    Rey: Yeah, you're right, who cares about power when you've experienced compassion.

    When Star Wars completely ignores the aspiration part (the more morally grey or potentially amoral) of Vader's motivation in TESB- "we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy!", it's hard to make it black-and-white again.

    What happened with Kylo happened with ROTJ Vader. It's better handled only because there was foreshadowing to it since TFA, that Kylo didn't really want to join The First Order (with Han and Leia believing in Ren or blaming it on a third party- Snoke (as with the Emperor in ROTJ, just more evident this time) (although JJ said in TFA commentary that Kylo killed his dad because he didn't want to leave The First Order in his heart).

    It's hard to move a character through compassion... because the core of their being is complex, not just proving them to be wrong. Or making them think- "Oh yeah, I used to be that person", when part of them was always that person- was good or partially so?
     
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  2. adamclark83

    adamclark83 Rebel Official

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    I loved Rey in the ST but what annoyed me about her from TLJ onwards was her constant "I have to do this alone. I must do this alone" attitude.

    Also, I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post it but I have been thinking how some scenes could've been different. If Rey wasn't related to anyone, they should've just said so at the start and maybe went with an actress who absolutely did not look like she was related to either Han and Leia or Luke. Maybe name her Kyra and have lovely red hair. This is what I was thinking (please understand, I am not a writer):

    The Force Awakens
    After escaping the Empire, Kyra and Finn have some time to themselves aboard the Falcon. Kyra sits atop the maintenance hatch cleaning a machinery part with a rag as Finn comes in from the cockpit:

    FINN: We seem to be OK. Nothing's chasing us yet. Looks like we're in the clear.
    KYRA: That's good to hear.
    FINN (sits down beside Kyra): Hey, you really handled this ship very well. You flown before?
    KYRA: Thanks (smiles gratefully). It was my first time, but dad gave me some pointers. Seems to have paid off. We appear to be still in one piece. (a bang sounds from somewhere in the ship) More or less.
    FINN: Your dad? Oh, shouldn't we go back for him? He must be worried sick about you. Your mum too.
    KYRA (looking solemn): There's no one.
    FINN: Oh, I am so sorry. I didn't mean to-
    KYRA: No, it's OK.
    FINN: What happened?
    KYRA: They died, trying to protect me. When I was younger, we were out buying supplies when raiders set upon us. Dad refused to give up what little we had so they wanted to take me to use as a bargaining chip. They started dragging me away, I tried to break free but was thrown to the ground. The punches and kicks came so fast I could hardly protect myself. Dad managed to free me and we escaped... barely. (she turns to Finn). You see, where I came from, you have to live with what little you have and for some people, that isn't enough. You have to fend for yourself and it could mean the difference between barely eating to eating not at all.

    THE LAST JEDI
    Kyra has encountered Luke whom wants nothing to do with her as he walks away.

    KYRA (calling): Master Skywalker.
    LUKE: I'm not a master anymore. I'm not "your" master so don't call me that.
    KYRA: I'm sorry. Luke. I didn't just come here because Leia seeks your assistance in this war. I came to seek your help.
    LUKE: What help? What help could I possibly give you?
    KYRA: I need your help in finding out what's happening to me.

    Luke dismisses Kyra's help with her training so she attempts to train herself with the lightsabre. Luke just sees what she is doing as foolish but while on his errands, he walks past and knocks her about or sweeps her legs. Over time, Luke warms to her.

    KYRA: Hey, what did you do that for?
    LUKE: Do what for?
    KYRA: You nearly tripped me up.
    LUKE: I did no such thing.
    KYRA: Yes you did.
    LUKE: What I was doing was trying to get you to stand correctly. You see, if you tried to defend an attack standing like that, your opponent would've knocked you on your ass leaving you open to a killing blow. By standing like this, it puts more strength into your back leg allowing you to recover faster.

    Kyra sits on a rock eating her dinner, watching the caretakers go about their business when the eldest trudges up to her and hands her a cloth package.

    KYRA (taking the package): Is this for me? (she unbinds the straps and opens it to reveal a nicely folded pair of Jedi attire).
    CARETAKER (subtitled): We figured if you're going to train as a Jedi, you should look like one.
    KYRA: They're lovely. Thank you.

    The caretaker starts to walk away.

    KYRA: Hey, wait a minute. What about Master Skywalker? Does he know about this?
    CARETAKER (subtitled - she turns round to face Kyra): Dear child, it was his idea.

    Also, should this trilogy's overall plan had been bringing the Jedi back?
     
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  3. adamclark83

    adamclark83 Rebel Official

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    What I have also been thinking lately is why they could not have had witches or such like in the trilogy? The only other witches seen in the shows/movies were the Nightsisters.

    Maybe at some point, in Episode VIII, Kyra could have been captured and the witches (not Nightsisters) use mind games and mental manipulation to force important information out of her such as a mystical orb that was hidden by her father.
     
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  4. StardustSoldier

    StardustSoldier Force Sensitive

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    I agree that C3PO should have died. It would've given his scene with saying goodbye to his friends and then the creepy Sith reading more emotional weight. I was relieved they didn't kill Chewbacca though. I really wanted him to survive considering we'd already lost Han and Luke, and then Leia soon after.
     
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  5. Darth Sidious

    Darth Sidious Rebel Official

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    - I’d make the “Sith Eternal” the villain faction of all three movies. Mas Amedda would be their leader and would be Kylo Ren’s boss instead of Snoke. In TFA, while Rey looks for Luke, the Sith Eternal would be looking for the tomb of the founder of the Sith. TFA would end with Amedda and Ren arriving in space above Exegol. TLJ would begin with them reviving or unsealing the founder of the Sith, who would then serve as the big bad for the remainder of the trilogy.

    - No “New Republic”. I’d establish that there’s been no Galactic government since the fall of Emperor Palpatine.
     
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  6. Darth Sidious

    Darth Sidious Rebel Official

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    - As suggested by The Art of TFA, Rey would live on Kef Bir instead of Jakku and that’s where TFA would begin.

    - ROS would end on Naboo instead of Tatooine.
     
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  7. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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    You know. I sort of understand why they ended it on Tatooine. But if they had ended it on Naboo. They could in a round about way have Rey honour both Luke and Leia as well as her parents. But I have come to understand that there is a pun in the title. The Rise of Skywalker. Not only pertains to Rey taking on the name. But Ben coming back to who he was. As well as Luke and Leia. You can say it is the Rise of a family. And Naboo is a heritage to all of them. Rey from her birth family and Luke, Leia and Ben through Padme.
     
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  8. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I'm a reylo - or was - so I honestly hoped for a Rey/Kylo romance; after TLJ despite the way it ended I thought we would see the two of them bring in a different kind of Jedi order, where the old codes - no attachments, whiter than white - would end and something more like the Grey Jedi in the EU would rise from the ashes.

    I believed that we would see a different perspective on both the FO and the Resistance, that neither would be 'purely good' or 'purely bad' after that little scene where DJ showed Finn that the Resistance were obtaining their weapons from the same suppliers as the FO.

    I thought that Finn would lead a stormtrooper uprising, and that both Rey and Kylo would end up with the latter forced to flee because Hux found out about Kylo killing Snoke, and that Poe would be a more aggressive leader of the Resistance, taking over from Leia, and Rey would leave after they found out she'd visited Kylo on the Supremacy. I also thought that Hux would end up as the 'big bad' of the FO.

    I think my big mistake was thinking that they would address the above issues in TROS, when they actually acted as if they'd never happened. Yet another thing that rankled with me. None of the loose ends from TLJ were tied up, unlike with ROTJ, which carried on where ESB had left off.

    Summarising, I thought that the idea of a new kind of Jedi, and making the conflict between 'good' and 'evil' not so clear cut was an interesting fresh take on SW rather than just rehashing ROTJ. But, Abrams, Terrio and Disney had other ideas and ended up rehashing ROTJ after all!;)
     
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  9. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I guess it's a personal thing but I find it difficult to see how a fan could feel that bad at the conclusion of ROTS in terms of the "romantic" aspect. Given the saga's track record.

    Anakin's intentions, bad or good, regarding Padme paved his road to hell. He choked her and she died giving birth to his children.

    Leia falls for the smuggler who wants to run away for reasons and they end up together purely by default (turning out to be Luke's sister and all that).

    Then their son murders Han and gets to atone for it, somewhat, by giving his life in order for Rey to return from beyond death.

    The third love story is arguably the most satisfyingly poignant in the series.
     
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  10. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Reading some of these comments, I think one big thing that stands out to me is that people wanted more out of the sequels in regards to worldbuilding, lore, etc.

    However, I can understand why LFL would try to tell a pretty simple story after the reaction many had to the prequels just a decade earlier.

    If I could go back to the drawing room in pre-TFA Disney, I'd suggest a sort of palate cleanser movie before the new trilogy comes out, rather than jumping right in with TFA (and I say this as someone who is still hyped from my first TFA viewing)- with the proper first sequel trilogy film coming out just a year later.

    Basically, this could fix several problems people had with the sequels:

    1) While I envision this as not featuring the OT's "Big Three", we could get some exposition on what Han, Luke, and Leia are up to. And maybe in the end, we could get a shot of all them together, to build for the anticipation of the next year's start of the trilogy.

    2) This film could have set the tone of the galaxy's conflict, allowing for stronger motivations to be built for the Republic, Resistance, and First Order. That way, the ST could still tell a story that focuses more on the relationships of its characters, while now having a bit more context.

    3) This movie could help transition from the OT to the ST. Use this to really make it clear when the ST takes place (because unlike us Star Wars supergeeks here, a lot of normies had no idea when the ST was supposed to take place).



    I guess one of my biggest gripes with the ST is that I like the story that's being told, for the most part. But while the more personal story of Rey and Kylo works well (some of the minor characters' stories were handled with less care, for sure), the galaxy just feels so scaled down otherwise. By telling a standalone story that's a bit more rooted to the climate of the era (think Rogue One, but set near the start of the ST), we could've had a better understanding of this period before getting our more personal story set in it.

    And maybe the worldbuilding isn't for everyone. After all, Star Wars is infamous for its first ever shot, the worldbuilding done with the ISD chasing the Tantive IV, and how with such simple imagery you can pretty much know all you need to about both factions. It's elegant and brilliant, and needing a whole other movie to accomplish basically the same thing is... well, it's much less elegant. I definitely admit that. But I think it's also fair to consider that Star Wars in 2015 was in a bit of a different spot than Star Wars 1977, for whatever that's worth. Different things were needed.
     
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  11. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I personally think the "world building" thing is overstated. All I got from the the prequels was endless, interminable spaceships being boarded and then taking off or landing and being deboarded. Felt like exactly what Lucas was talking about during the OT which other movies got wrong. "Setting is not story." Don't waste story time on setting. But with the prequels (and even before that with the inserted arrival at Mos Eisley and Vader returning to his ship scenes in the special editions) he seemed to have forgotten or changed his mind and was trying to tell us that it's important to provide lengthy fly bys of the environment and logistics of getting in and out of places, at leisure.
     
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  12. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Actually...
    The exact same establishing sequences are used in both trilogies...
    I've actually studied them because it's a very unique Lucas manner of telling Star Wars stories. The ST doesn't really do this, but Lucas does it in all 6 of his movies.
    And they generally move about the same speed regardless which movie you put in.
    Picture1.png

    The main difference, as far as I see it, is that the OT was an experiment (in part) in minimalism for Lucas. How much story can you cram in as fast as you can before it starts to fall apart? Each movie tried to one-up the previous in the OT on that tangent. Lucas considered ROTJ to be right on the brink of unintelligible at the time.

    With the PT, Lucas very noticeably went a different route. The shot lengths are still the same, but the disposition of the frame is more aiming for Epics (Lawrence of Arabia, Spartacus, Gone with the Wind, Ten Commandments, etc...) than Westerns and old Republic Serials.

    The language of the dialogue slows down. The frequency of action slows down.
    That makes it feel like things take longer. And then you start noticing things - you start getting impatient if it's feeling too slow.
    The establishing sequences which gave you a handle to understand where the heck you were in relation to what's happened in the dizzying array of cuts and action back in the OT, stop being needed handles because you don't feel like you're being rushed around anywhere that needs a hand with context.

    So now they're just needless shots to you - in the way.
    But they're still the same thing he's been doing all along.

    It's just a matter of whether it annoyed you in one or the other.
    That's a danger of going slow - you can bore an audience and a bored audience will start picking apart a movie rather than getting caught up in it.
    Even an angry audience will miss a lot of technical things. But a bored mind is far less forgiving.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I can totally see where you're coming from, and it's definitely a balance to try to attain. But I guess if we're getting a new movie set in the Star Wars universe but a different era of it, that raises some questions, doesn't it?

    Like, if it's Star Wars, then why isn't it set during the original trilogy that we all know and love (like Rogue One, Rebels, or sorta Solo)? We have a context for the conflict, so can really delve more into the story.

    If it's not set then, fine... but why is it Star Wars, then? Like, could Rey and Ben's story be told in a different series? Why is Star Wars necessary? And if it is (and I'd certainly argue that's possible) then... why do we once again lack context?

    It's this sort of weird circular logic where the filmmakers seem to be winking like "You know this, it's Star Wars!" but at the same time we're in an entirely new time period... yet at that same time, it seems to very much mirror the conflict we've already seen... yet at the same time, the filmmakers seem to be trying to subvert our expectations... yet at the same time, they're also playing into the tropes of the series quite commonly...

    Again, I like the ST, but it almost feels like it exists in this liminal space where the facade of Star Wars is overlaid on something that's supposed to be new. It's almost the opposite of the prequels in that way, which often felt aesthetically unlike Star Wars.

    So, it's a tough act to balance. On the one hand, I don't really want to get into the politics of interplanetary trade again, and even the descriptions of cut scenes in the Hosnian system seem like their absence may have been for the better. But also, I just feel like I don't really even now the GFFA in the ST, and that's... frustrating. It's not like I'm some Star Wars trivia champion or anything, but the PT and OT GFFA are like The Shire to me, they're iconic. The ST just feels kinda like a blank canvas for stories rather than a lived in world.
     
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  14. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    This is my biggest gripe too. Once the PT was made and had this grand story and world building, the ST was going to suffer if it ignored those elements. Ironically, they ignored them to please a certain segment of the fanbase who got alienated after 1,2,3.

    I honestly think if 7,8,9 were made in 2015 with the same exact story we see on screen now, but the PT was never made, I think it would be looked at much more differently. Once 1,2,3 were made, it turned into a Grand Saga, a more linear story, it conditioned fans to look at them more as a Continuous Story than individual movies. When I was growing up and watching 4,5,6 on HBO in the 80's, I just never looked at them so much as this grand story. I watched them as Star Wars, Empire and Jedi, and they were just this Trilogy I really loved. Then the PT came around, and you start looking more at the big picture story because that is the way Lucas made them. Every thing was about the narrative, and less about the individual movies

    So if 7,8,9 were made today without the PT ever being made, I think many of us would look at the Franchise as Star Wars, Empire, Return, Awakens, Last Jedi, and Rise and there would be no context to a grander story, world building, or this specific arc that ties all the movies together. The ST would be looked at as the inferior Trilogy, but people would have taken it with a grain of salt knowing that Ford, Fisher and Hamill weren't the main players. Now everything in SW is packaged as the Saga, 1-9, the Skywalker Saga, everything has to tie in with Episode 1. Once you make this smaller scale story for 7,8,9, it' going to look real small when it is all said and done.

    I hope that makes sense.
     
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  15. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    You know, I wish I could see it that way....but post TROS all I'm left with is the feeling that Ben loved Rey, but she didn't give a toss for him.

    I'm absolutely sure that he killed Snoke for her, and that his decision to take over the FO was an impulse after the fight in the throne room - he hadn't thought past killing Snoke and it occurred to him afterwards that he now had an opportunity to lead, with Rey at his side.

    He sacrificed his life for her - but we never saw her mourn him. Not at all. A few wishy washy comments in the novel, which was written a while after TROS, but for the most part she accepted his death as her rightful due and was comfortably content with taking his name - along with everything else - as his replacement. The smirk on her face at the end of TROS, watched over by the ghosts of her new 'surrogate parents' said everything.
    She wept more for Han Solo, who she'd known five minutes, than for Ben.

    I don't know how to do 'spoilers' so I'll say this - anyone who hasn't seen the Hobbit films and wants to:

    STOP READING NOW!

    The love story between Tauriel and Kili in the Hobbit is far more powerful than Ben/Rey. The scene at the end where Tauriel mourns Kili still makes me cry. But Rey showed NONE of that emotion. She didn't shed a tear. And she didn't even regret almost killing him because she cared about him - she was more concerned about it's effect on her, and the possibility of her 'going dark'.

    I found myself comparing her to Belle in Beauty and the Beast, and finding her wanting. Belle loved and accepted the monster, which inspired him to become a better person, and therefore broke the spell. Rey would not love Kylo Ren, she wanted Ben - 'I would have taken Ben's hand.'

    Yet...it wasn't 'Ben Solo' who chose to kill his master for her - it was Kylo Ren. He killed his father for Snoke - but he wouldn't kill Rey for him.

    Post TLJ, I'm pretty sure Rey felt nothing for Kylo/Ben - it's why even for reylos, and former reylos like myself, the kiss didn't work. In fact, we see it as Rey sucking the life from Ben Solo! Our heroine comes across now as a creepy succubus who takes and doesn't give anything back!! It's why I'm no longer a reylo. And why I no longer have any affection for Rey as a character. In fact, she creeps me out.
     
  16. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    It's not the Jedi way. She's with him, and he with her, like the force and all the Jedi before them as we saw in the climax to the movie. Always.

    Mourning is for the leaving of the spirit from the corporeal vessel. Once we've lost that tactile connection that we're accustomed to, it is of course natural to grieve. As we are told in the prequels, mourning the death of a person can indicate a sense of dispossession (which comes from selfishness, you could say). We shouldn't continue to mourn a soul that endures beyond that. And with Ben, Rey witnessed both his spirit and his body transcend to the place she knows he lives on, all around her and within her. Having said all that I'm sure if I was in Rey's place I'd be under the bed with a jar of cookies for weeks. But this is a Star Wars movie after all and it's not obligated to faithfully document human behaviour.

    I think that that TROS gave it the correct proportions in relation to the amount they interacted in the story - Only a matter of days, and not all of them good.
     
    #116 Martoto, Oct 5, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
  17. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Same with Kili/Tauriel in the Hobbit.

    As for 'not the Jedi way'.....Luke mourned his father and Obi Wan. And although the scene was cut from TLJ, he mourned Han. I actually thought the 'Jedi way' was callous and cold, which is why I was hoping that something new would replace them in the ST.

    But in any case, as I said ....Rey wept buckets for Han, who she had known five minutes, and didn't even come to StarKiller to save her - that was Finn. Han came to blow it up.
     
  18. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Luke's father didn't merge with the force in front of his eyes. And Luke did mourn Han in TFA (it was an additional mourning scene that was deleted), but it's important to remember that it had happened in his absence, and he is not listening to the force at this moment.

    You're right that the "Jedi way" is callous and cold, when it is presented as the solution to someone who has not suffered the loss yet and is being asked to treat their relationship with their loved ones as if they are already dead.

    What Ben and Rey went through is entirely different from any other relationship in the saga. So the ST did show us something unique.
     
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  19. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    It's film language.
    It is a movie.

    There's screaming like crazy in TFA because she wasn't through her arc and defined by being afraid to be alone and she just watched a son murder his Father. Something exactly opposite of her character's ontology at that time.

    TLJ: In short - Kylo learns to need someone to be complete / Rey learns to stand on her own two feet.

    So when you get to TROS what you have is Kylo get killed by Rey and brought back to life by Rey as Ben because his Mom touched his soul. Ben now faces his Dad's death from Kylo.
    Rey fears her family rather than fearing being alone. She fears herself.
    Skip skip.
    She kills her Grandfather, but it comes at the cost of Ben dy - going off a cliff, and her own life. But then Ben pulls a Rey because Yin/Yang and tag teams back to Rey who is now reborn with Ben inside of her, just as she had left herself in Ben earlier.

    They were both baptized into each other.
    She's not screaming like nuts because it's not act 1.
    It's the end of act 3 and the character and symbols have vastly grown.

    The film language is saying she's not as torn because Ben is with her and she knows why he did what he did - that she would do the same.
    The film language killed Kylo Ren and Rey Palpatine and remade Rey Skywalker when Ben Skywalker gave his essence to Rey to bring her back reborn as one from him.

    There's no reason for her to go crazy.
    She's bigger than that now, and she is one with Ben in spirit.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  20. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    That's definitely an interesting point. Sure, the expanded universe did loads to flesh out the GFFA for superfans, and I'm sure they would've expected more from any movie afterward.

    But the prequels legitimized that aspect of Star Wars to the average moviegoing audience. And I think there were parts of it they liked and parts they didn't, but it became part of the series' DNA at that point.

    I remember the confusion after TFA. I remember after a viewing, reading that the Resistance and the Republic were two different factions and having my mind totally blown. After a viewing!

    And I wasn't the only one, I'm sure some of you were the same way. Even though the movie may draw a distinction in a line of dialogue or two, it really does a poor job of delving much into the admittedly fascinating relationship these two groups have.

    I guess I just feel like there's a happy medium between "not explaining anything at all, ever" and "C-SPAN in space" that Star Wars should be able to pretty easily slot itself into.
     
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