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Missed Opportunities of the ST - What Could’ve Been

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by JediJurist, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    It’s not too late, actors are still around,. Use the cave time mirror to explain away the current ST as a vision and Rey can right the wrongs. Use Feloni to fix the movies.
     
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  2. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Could I suggest that after the prequels, fans didn't trust the opening crawl to be worth reading or taking into account. The prequel crawls took a bit of criticism for being largely irrelevant, dull, or contained stuff that was just not supported by the movies ( like the unrest all over the galaxy that the Jedi are supposedly struggling to control at the beginning of AOTC)

    The relationship between the New Republic and the Resistance which only receives under the table support from some quarters of the senate is spelled out in the opening crawl of TFA.
     
  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Maybe. I realize that technically the text is accurate, but I'm not sure that on a first time viewing, this is all that clear:
    [​IMG]

    Plus, I'd imagine the shiny "Luke Skywalker" mention kinda overshadowed that.

    I dunno, just reading that as if it were my first viewing(and maybe I'm nitpicking), but if anything I feel like if I even noticed that a distinction was made between "REPUBLIC" and "RESISTANCE", I still wouldn't really understand what it was.

    Remember, ANH's opening is iconic because it shows, not tells. We see the tiny Rebel Alliance and the enormous hulking Empire... yet through it all, the little Rebels eek out the smallest of victories still from the encounter with the Death Star plans escaping.

    With the sequels, we see the shadow of a First Order star destroyer, but we don't really see any of the "good guys" until we see Poe in the village... and then, what is he? Resistance? Rebel? Republic? What's the difference? Ahhhhhhh! :p

    I kid, but really, it just feels needlessly confusing.
     
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  4. Flying spaghetti monster

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    They wanted to make the Resistance seem downtrodden like the rebels were in the OT. The problem is the Rebels/republic were the ones in power. So they had to separate the Resistance from the Republic as some kind of mercenaries or something, and the only thing standing between the Republic and the first order.

    I think the idea was they didn't want a republic army again because it lead to a forceful takeover, so the Resistance was a separate entity from the Republic.
     
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  5. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    Can't wait to see who they would use to re-cast Leia
     
  6. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I had no clear grasp of what difference there was between the Senate and Emperor for years as a kid. The politics vomited about in ANH made no sense for a long time for me.

    It did not matter. The film did not rely on grasping that. Big scary guy in black. Bad. Country bumpkin kid. Good.
    People attacking. Bad. People fleeing. Good.
    Roll it.

    Same with TFA.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  7. Flying spaghetti monster

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    There was a cut scene from TFA that was supposed to explain the relationship between the Resistance and the Republic. I guess they thought it was too political.

    Basically they're the same, for all intents and purposes. With everything going on the details weren't important. It would have been difficult to explain 35 years of political history after the battle of endor that lead to the events of tfa.

    To me the time gap between 6&7 was just too much and that was the main problem with the sequels. But there's no way around that.
     
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  8. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    If there is one thing that never ceases to amaze me it's how Poe Dameron went on to become a major character both in the ST and the supplementary material...he's now getting his very own Lego special.....when he was meant to die at the beginning of TFA.:p
     
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  9. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Well they are both referred to as distinctly separate entities with their respective names in BLOCK CAPITALS to emphasise this.

    The opening crawl of ANH literally tells us what the first shot of the movie is going to be. Leia racing to her home planet pursued by the Empire's sinister agents (who get most of the dialogue in the first few scenes). It's not until about twenty minutes later that we learn that it was no coincidence that she was passing by Tatooine on the way to Alderann

    I don't really see what the issue is with TFA relative to ANH. We're told that the First Order will not rest until Luke Skywalker is destroyed. And we are also told that a RESISTANCE PILOT (sent by Leia) is on the trail of a clue to finding Luke Skywalker. We see the FO arriving at a planet and quickly capturing the pilot but not the clue. (During which we're shown a new dark sided character who seemingly has a personal obsession with finding Skywalker) And then the movie actually spends most of its time showing us the young woman who will become the central character and her solitary miserable life.

    They had a scene where Leia contacts her envoy at the Senate (she's featured in a shot of the Hosnian system about to be destroyed) asking her to plead with the New Republic to take the threat of the FO seriously, and to tell them that this was a critical time. They decided it was better to hold back Leia's reintroduction till later in the movie as a "surprise". I think that was a mistake. It wasn't that much of a surprise. They could, if they really wanted to, have obscured Leia's appearance so that the audience couldn't tell who exactly was contacting the woman in the Senate. Or the surprise could have been that Leia appeared in the first scene as a Princess, but then dressed in her combat gear for when she's properly reintroduced.
     
    #129 Martoto, Oct 6, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  10. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Sure, but EVIL EMPIRE vs SCRAPPY REBELS is a pretty easy concept to grasp.

    GROWING TERRORIST ORGANIZATION vs PASSIVE AND INEPT GOVERNMENT WHO IS SECRETLY, PARTIALLY, AND HESITANTLY SUPPORTING A SPLINTER FACTION THAT INTENDS TO COMBAT THE TERRORISTS' RISE just... kinda seems to beg more of an explanation. Maybe that's just me.
     
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  11. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    That's why they made a big show of the Republic being effectively wiped out (its ruling regime at least), midway through the movie so that it was clearly reduced to the underdog resistance Vs the first order. From that point on it's pretty much irrelevant what the difference was.

    I can understand some fans appetite and expectations for the movie to conspicuously exposit clear definitions of who is who and what their function is, like they did in the prequel trilogy. I guess if you are looking for that then it can be a distraction from what the film IS telling us.

    The FO is not a terrorist organisation. That's never even hinted at. If they were then the Republic would not have been giving unofficial support to a resistance. It's a separate state that the Resistance was trying mostly to appeaseme. Rather than confront.
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Sure, but if you don't know the difference between the Republic/Rebels/Resistance, you don't really know what you're seeing there. I distinctly remember that being the case for me on my first viewing.



    I suppose. I guess my point was more that the relationships between the factions was more complex in the ST, but less explained.

    I guess that fact that nearly six years later and we're not quite on the same page as to what even to label the FO kinda is a testament to that.
     
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  13. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    We shall destroy the government that
    supports the Resistance, the Republic.
    Without their friends to protect
    them, the Resistance will be
    vulnerable, and we will stop them
    before they reach Skywalker.


    Before SKB got fired, Hux declares that they are attacking the Republic and their fleet as punishment for their tolerance and lying to to galaxy with their not so tacit support of the "loathsome Resistance" (said to be terrorising the as yet "peaceful" First Order).

    Then when it happens, Finn runs to tell everyone "It was the Republic. The First Order have done it!"

    Then when X Wings arrive to save the day at Takadona "It's the Resistance!" Han says.

    Even if they don't explicate why the resistance is the resistance, the distinction is clearly made between it and the Republic.
     
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  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Sure, I'm not saying that one can't scour the script for clues, but do you honestly believe this is all stuff that the average moviegoing audience will gain insight on during their first viewing?

    Because again, I was confused, as were many others. The vague faction namedropping didn't do much to help. "Show, don't tell" tends to be the archetypical advice in film-making and writing, and I think this is a good example as to why.

    edit: I don't want to hijack this thread with this discussion, and no hard feelings of course, but I think that's really all I have to say on this. Simply that people were confused about this, so there must've been a reason.
     
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  15. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I don't think you represent the average moviegoing audience though. No offence but it sounds like what happened with a lot of fans who have followed their preconceived notions and certain presumptions at the expense of the text and what is clearly defined in the dialogue. (Like Luke leaving a map so that he could be found for example)

    As for show don't tell. They showed us the Republic being attacked and its entire fleet destroyed in one go. Then they showed us the tiny resistance coming along and taking the fight to the FO. And we've been told the resistance is a secret force in a secret location. So I don't know how they could be confused.

    Show don't tell is something that's handy for artistic criticism. If you are being explicitly told something and then shown it, you can say that it's not cinematically very strong, but you can't cite show don't tell to explain how you're confused by something, unless you've been told one thing and shown something at odds with what you've been told.
     
    #135 Martoto, Oct 6, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  16. Lord Phanatic

    Lord Phanatic Vader's Black Squadron
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    What could have been: I wanted a Finn led stormtrooper rebellion....I mean.....duh right? I wanted a ton of things to take place that didn't and to be honest I just don't feel like typing out more manotany on top of monotany. I'm over it and now have my sights set on the future.
    #letitdie
     
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  17. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    *Watches America*
    chew.gif

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #137 Jayson, Oct 7, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
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  18. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I expect the general audience (who hardly know which movies are out and mostly fall into movies as hardly more than a social activity) to follow any movie almost entirely based on what the actor's emoting, set lighting, and lens framing subconsciously tells them to feel.

    That's what they follow. The rest of it that the general audience bases their responses on comes down to three things: 1) Interpersonal melodrama 2) Humor 3) Glittery things. Out of those three, by far the most weight is carried in the first item: what will grab them almost always is the same crap that grabbed people all the way back in Gone with the Wind.

    It's super easy low-hanging fruit - McDonalds food.
    Someone crying, yelling, things are painfully emotional, arguing,...
    giphy.gif

    People really love loud arguing in movies. If you can get two characters to argue in every other scene and say I'm sorry in between, peppered with some hugs and rubbing backs, people really love that.

    Almost no one cares about the logistics, and the general audience is basically confused by nearly anything. The first Mission Impossible confused the majority of the general audience. They also don't care if they're confused. Inception confused the crap out of the general audience - didn't matter.

    No one cares.
    What they care about is there's a human on the screen going through some emotional drama, and there's some reason to move the eyeballs and dilate pupils.

    That's why the Sequel Trilogy got an A, A, B+ for it's movie's cinemascores.
    Because TROS was WAY too nerd-niche for the general audience. The general audience doesn't know, nor care, about the Saga's connective tissue in terms of themes and through plots. So it's going to do worse because it's a giant blender mess of thematic checkmarks (literally how they wrote it).

    The general audience didn't walk out of TFA not liking it because they didn't understand the difference between the Resistance and the Republic.
    They didn't because they didn't care. They still don't care. They will never care.

    They have ATVs to go ride, nails to get done, sportsball events to watch, beer and wine to drink, shopping to do, kids to yell at, cars to curse at, churches to go to or feel guilty for not going to, people to yell at on Facebook about politics, and whatever ...

    The general audience does not care about Star Wars. If they did, this forum wouldn't exist.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  19. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    The things I wanted to see happen and didn't:
    Reylo - sue me, I liked it!:D
    Finn leading a stormtrooper uprising
    Poe leading the Resistance (throughout the entire film, not just the last five minutes)
    The FO finding out that Kylo killed Snoke
    The Resistance finding out that Rey visited Kylo - and the existence of the Force bond
    Luke's Force ghost visiting Kylo
    Hux as Supreme Leader - they really wasted Domhnall in TROS

    A not so bad FO ( under Kylo)
    A not so good Resistance (under Poe)

    Regarding Poe, don't get me wrong, his character is likeable enough, but I think Oscar was at his best in TLJ when he was the impulsive and in some ways ruthless, rebel. I actually liked how in Rogue 1 they showed that the rebels had a 'darker' side, with Saw Guerrera and Cassian Andor carrying out 'black ops'. I think that if they had gone this way with the ST it would have been something different. I still can't get over how disappointing it was how they rehashed ROTJ for TROS - it reminds me of the final season of Game Of Thrones when all they wanted to do was hurry up and finish it all off.
     
  20. Flying spaghetti monster

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    To me the biggest missed opportunity was for Kylo Ren to become what Vader never could. He killed his Darkside master, something Vader couldn't do. Anakin killed Palpatine, but he didn't do it for the reasons vader wanted to.
    The story didn't really need Palpatine at all. Being the ruler of the galaxy, and running things his way would have been interresting. He could have still redeemed himself.

    Poe. I think he was alright. He kind of reminds me of Ponch from CHIPs. Arrogant and cocky but he learned to be a leader and that was emphasized in TLJ.
     
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