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SPOILER MSW Leaks so far: A hint of what's to come for the KoR?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Charlie07, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    The links worked for me. Has anyone tried them again?
     
  2. Trevor

    Trevor Protector of the Jedi
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    Still down for me...from two different devices.
     
  3. Unseen

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    Hmmm based on this stuff I think the theory that Luke is actually talking to Kylo in the trailer is likely.

    I think it’s meant to look like he’s talking to Rey. That’s the misdirect in the trailer, not some overly-complicated training scene.

    I’m coming around to the idea of Kylo redemption, assuming it’s done differently from Vader.

    However, I’m going to really dislike that Rey essentially becomes a device for Kylos arc.

    In other words, if kylos redemption to becoming a hero is in fact the story of TROS, then where does that leave Rey?

    If she doesn’t discover she is a solo or skywalker- if there’s notthing else for her to discover- then what will she do differently other than display her new powers?
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 23, 2019 ---
    Why the pause? They are very accurate.

    They had all of TFA down at least. Dude must have friends at Bad Robot
     
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  4. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    I didn't think of that! However, cast members said that the trailer doesn't misdirect. It would make sense as to why he would say that to Kylo as opposed to Rey. It just seems like they're getting a lot leaks that's all. More so then normal.
     
  5. Kylocity

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    How so? We don’t know yet if Rey will be part of Kylo’s redemption.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 23, 2019 ---
    A redemption arc doesn’t automatically turn one into a hero, or overshadows the heroics of everyone else. Did Vader’s sacrifice undervalue Luke’s actions? The answer is no.
     
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  6. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    MSW is one of the more reputable sites for this type of information. They seem to have some pretty reliable sources and they have gotten a number of things right or close to right in all of the recent SW movies
     
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  7. Unseen

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    I didn’t realize they have said that. I could also see that speech not being in the film at all- like the TFA trailer.

    (The TFA trailer is on my mind, because that speech certainly was made to look like he’s talking to Rey)
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 23, 2019 ---
    I wasn’t very clear. I mean that IF TROS has a redemption arc for Kylo where he becomes THE hero.

    Not a Vader like redemption- but a full on switching sides to “rise” and redeem everyone.

    Based on the MSW leak, for instance, it would seem Kylo returning to good is a big piece of the flick...what does Rey have to do/overcome that can compete with that??

    And if Kylo ends up redeeming everyone by defeating palps once and for all? What was Rey for?

    Basically this leak, the title (if it refers to Kylo at least in part), the speech that could be to Kylo, Rey nobody, and JJs love of deception has me thinking that

    PT- our main character falls to the dark.

    OT- our main character resists the dark.

    ST- our main character returns to the light.

    In other words, I think this trilogy is actually kylos which is disappointing.

    He has the arc, he has the bloodline, he has the challenges to overcome, etc.

    Rey was just a device to bring the audience to Kylo basically.

    Her arc is done. She’s kicked kylos ass and learned to accept her new family. Yeah she’s going to be more powerful, but what’s left/there to develop her character?

    I was worried Rey nobody meant this. If the saga is about family, and Kylo is the only skywalker, and he probably turns to good, and Rey has no real arc left (especially compared to Kylo) then we really didn’t get a trilogy led by a woman.

    And that’s disappointing.

    I’m still pulling for Rey to be related and have her at least be the anakin side to kylos Vader. Then there is stuff for her to do/grow/learn/overcome.
     
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  8. Stormagadon

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    What's in the story for Rey? Probably accepting Kylo's redemption.
    She knows his story, the opportunities he's been given to turn away from the Dark, and now that he's coming to that conclusion, perhaps she's think he has missed his chance.

    You said "what was Rey for?" and "Rey was just a device to bring the audience to Kylo." Well, yes, in a way. She serves as our connection to the story, the same way Luke did in the OT. What Rey will do for us is accept Kylo Ren's redemption. How many people here on the boards think that he is beyond that? That's how she will operate. If she can forgive him after struggling with his betrayals, then we can too.
     
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  9. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I am the Senate

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    I'm not for a Kylo redemption in a sense he lives happily ever after. If he's redeemed then there needs to be consequences for it. Whatever that may be. He becomes the hunted for example instead of the hunter. Everyone isn't gonna forgive him. But I'm not so sure yet he will be redeemed. More like he becomes balanced.
     
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  10. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I think maybe we are falling victim to the echo chamber. There certainly seems to be a lot of people on this forum that are looking for a Kylo redemption (I am not among them). But just logistically speaking and realistically thinking, I would say there is virtually zero chance that Rey gets supplanted in this trilogy by Kylo even if he gets an 11th hour redemption. Not because the writers would be particularly careful in handling each arc, but because this is Rey's story essentially. Everyone has been ancillary to it.

    In retrospect, tying this new Star Wars Trilogy to the previous ones was a HUGE mistake. It didn't handle the legacy characters well at all, and at times it felt like they were just in the way of the new stars in an effort to create a connection. Without the OT connection we don't to try to force fit Rey into the family tree of every FS character and we don't call for Kylo's redemption but instead are more objective about what his end/demise should be.
     
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  11. DjChubakka

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    I'm thinking about ROTJ and how Luke's story is really about how he handles Darth Vader and the Emperor, sure it's the redemption of Anakin, but it's LUKE'S story. The same can be done with Rey, her story is told through her efforts to stop Kylo and redeem him. But it's REY'S story. Her fulfilling her potential much like Luke. This isn't going to become "it was really all about Ben Solo-Skywalker all along". The OT was about Luke. The ST is about Rey.
     
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  12. Lylo Ren

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    This post deserves a standing ovation!
     
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  13. ObeeJaun

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    It doesn't misdirect THEM because they know what the story is.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 23, 2019 ---
    She's a device to get Kylo to redemption. AND she's a love interest that will provide offspring for the next trilogy.
     
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  14. Unseen

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    But Rey already tried this. She already saw good in him, enough to forgive him, and tried to bring him to the light.

    So...she’s going to try again?

    My basic point is there is no arc left for Rey.

    She let go of her family coming back, accepted the truth, learned to forgive, found her place, and even learned to not meet your heroes.

    She already kicked kylos ass too.

    So....where does she go from here?

    I mean, sure she is going to be more powerful and have physical challenges...but what’s left to her arc that could compete with the only skywalker getting redemption?

    And Kylo has been a main character from the beginning- unlike Vader. We didn’t get important private moments with Vader.

    We didn’t have the ghost of obi-wan visiting Vader, trying to redeem him. Etc.

    Reminder that Poe was supposed to die. The big 3 are Rey, Finn, and Kylo.

    Unless Rey has more to learn about her “place” I just don’t see how her narrative could compete with kylos redemption.

    In ROTJ, Luke became a Jedi, learned the truth about his father, learned about his sister, had to face his father (the guy that kicked HIS ass), etc.

    My point is unless there is more to Rey’s place/story, then she is basically Han Solo in ROTJ. Yeah he did cool/important stuff, but he didn’t grow. He’s the same at the end as he was at the start of ROTJ. His arc was done. It’s why ford wanted him to die.

    If Kylo is redeemed and there’s nothing more to Rey’s backstory, I just don’t see how her characters arc can compete.

    Rey got the shaft. She should have been a solo or skywalker.

    Oh, and any Reylo nonsense makes this 1000 times worse. I’m glad daisy agrees. What an awful message that would be.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 24, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 24, 2019 ---
    I think they should have just revealed Rey as a solo in TFA when Han shows up. We learn it with Finn.

    She could have been a rebellious, war-hating, pacifist, reluctant hero who wanted nothing to do with Jedi or anything since “her brother died.” So she ran away.

    Then later we (and Finn) learn she lied, her bro is Kylo. There even could have been banter about having trouble with the truth/different points of view.

    She then reluctantly decides to go to uncle like to complete her training, only to discover he is even more disgusted than she is.

    It would have gotten the fam stuff out of the way and explained everything from her skills to why she has the falcon.
     
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  15. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    Sorry to disappoint you but I won’t.
    More over, the point is not that we should forgive him but if we can buy his redemption.
    I buy Vader’s redemption because I can get the idea that even the worst of men can still love his child.
    More importantly that doesn’t diminish Luke’s arc.
    The point being that he (Luke) finds a way to be a Jedi, like his father before him, something he said he would want to become back in ep IV.
    That Vader is his father, the revelation of V, that challenges him. That leaves him with questions, doubts, with the fear that he may end up following his father path. It’s personal not only because the relationship is personal but because Luke’s own identity and purpose are put in question.
    Is his fate that of his father? Is he doomed/cursed? Etc...
    He has a personal “task/issue” to overcome. And compassion is the tool, he finds to fulfill HIS destiny. To become a Jedi etc..
    Rey has not any personal motivation, purpose, issue to solve. Any doubt. Her arc is done. All she has to do - if so - is saying Ok.
     
    #95 lealt, Apr 24, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  16. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Rebel Official

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    I think the reason people are struggling to see satisfactory outcomes to these arcs is down to the way movies (in this genre) are constructed these days.
    A lot of the drama comes from cheap moments of character betrayal or confounding audience expectations. I've seen it in the Marvel movies, I've seen it in the Transformers movies, and I've seen it in TFA and TLJ: characters who are perceived to be allies switching sides at a critical moment (or being revealed to have been behind the whole threat facing our heroes all along) - and vice versa - sworn enemies of our heroes unexpectedly turning against their masters providing salvation, or switching sides altogether to help our allies. Eveything's got to be a "twist" or big reveal to keep audiences excited and outdo the previous blockbuster these days.

    This isn't a criticism so much, maybe it's just an unavoidable writing trend at the moment.

    So, even though we know Vader's redemption wasn't necessarily in mind when the original Star Wars screenplay was being developed, he still follows a progressive arc - where he can go from wanting to wipe out the rebels and murder his former mentor and friend... through to the moment he realises he has a son, eventually reaching out to him to team up... then to the moment of his redemption when he realises overthrowing the Emperor and saving his son is more important than his own life and the power trip he has been on...

    Now, you can look at what we have seen in the sequels so far and draw obvious comparisons - Kylo's moment of hesitation when given the chance to destroy his mother, his offer of an alliance with Rey...
    The problem is these moments are not progressive in the same way. The similarities are undone by the differences.

    From the instant Vader reveals the truth to Luke on Bespin and that moment of contemplation on the Devastator bridge as the Falcon blasts away into hyperspace that follows, the way Vader interacts with Luke evolves - it is played so that you can sense the conflict within him growing, even though he is still compelled to carry out the Emperor's bidding. It's fairly simple and linear. There's an unexpected twist, but just the one, and everything pivots on that one moment.

    By contrast: Kylo goes to embrace his father, then stabs him through the chest. Kylo says killing Han was easy, Snoke says it has left him unbalanced. Kylo hesitates when targeting the bridge and his mother on board, but the bridge is destroyed anyway. Kylo seems to be going to execute Rey, he executes his master instead. Kylo builds a rapport with Rey via Force Skype sessions, he tells her she's a worthless nobody. Rey invites Kylo to join her, Kylo insists she joins him on the Dark Side, then moments later he has declared himself leader of the First Order and vows to destroy her.
    It's played for thrills, and it works on that level, but you kind of give up on caring what Kylo really feels and what he is going to do next because he can flip-flop at the drop of a hat simply to provide a momentary dramatic twist.

    I think Kylo's eventual redemption is certainly a logical place for this story to go, I just don't really feel that emotionally invested in it, nor do I feel it's been building towards it in a satisfactory way. I feel it's just going to come as another "I bet you didn't think that was going to happen!" moment...
     
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  17. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    I gave your post a like. But I would add something about these scenes.
    Sure Kylo hesitates. But we never sees him worried for his own mother after her ship explodes.
    We can make the assumption that he sensed that she was still alive, etc...
    However we do not see him worried, concerned. No reaction at all.
    Therefore, we are allowed - no matter what - to believe that he doesn’t care.
    Why?
    Or to rephrase, what’s the intent - story wise - of this omission?
    Keep in mind that... we see someone else, beside Luke doing that: Poe holding her hand...

    Same with Rey. It’s not that his offer is about ending the tyranny and restore democracy.
    In addition, the first scene Snoke vs Kylo, what Snoke says about using people’s weaknesses as sharp tools
    and the look Ren gives to the pretorian guards = the notion that he cannot kill Snoke and survive without someone
    else’s help... all of this is ambiguous enough to allow another kind of read.
    That he cares about power. That tyrannical power.

    What I mean is that, the movie is 100% if not ambiguous “open” to different takes and evolutions.
    If so... you cannot have a well crafted arc.
    That requires definitive decisions avoided until now.
     
    #97 lealt, Apr 24, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  18. DjChubakka

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    Kylo's "Join me" moment mirrors Darth and Luke's in ESB. Guess Luke's story line had nowhere to go in ROTJ.
     
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  19. Get In Gear

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    I guess that was what I was trying to address in my post above though.

    When Vader reveals he is Luke's father and makes that offer, it is a pivotal moment and both characters' paths are completely changed forever by that.
    Vader was just this big evil dude who did evil things. Luke was just the hero hoping to become strong enough to kick the big bad dude's ass.
    From that confrontation onwards everything changes, and it's a gradual, linear development building up to their final confrontation. The confrontation is inevitable, but the outcome is now in the balance in a way it never was before. Vader is no longer the guy who bumps off his incompetent officers for the slightest mistake, now he pauses and strides away when the Falcon escapes because he has stuff on his mind. He pauses on Endor as he sends Luke away to face the Emperor, because he is contemplating whether he is doing the right thing, despite reciting Palpatine's mantra to his son moments earlier. We finally see him as a guy who is the way he is because he is trapped by his fear of his master.
    So too, Luke, as he finally accepts Vader really is his dad, no longer wants to kick his ass but wants to free him and bring him back to the light.
    Those developments lead us in to the climax.

    As I said above, the comparison with Kylo can be made, but it doesn't quite stand up for me, because we have already seen this guy throw down his helmet and go to embrace his father, before stabbing him through the chest. We've seen him hesitate to murder his mother, but have been given no payoff in the form of a reaction when the bridge of the ship she is on is blown to pieces despite his hesitation. We have seen him converse with Rey through the Force in a fairly civilised manner. We have seen him motion as if he was going to execute Rey, then cut his master in half instead. We have seen him offer to team up with Rey, only to declare moments later "I'll destroy her".
    He just comes across as someone who keeps changing his mind and going back and forth. He's killed his own father. He's seen his own mother blasted into space seconds before he was about to pull the trigger himself. He's killed his master. He talks to his dead grandfather. The girl he chatted up through he Force who handed his ass to him once didn't want to join him. The last Jedi he vowed to kill tricked him by appearing as an apparition, then died anyway.
    Whatever finally inspires him to not follow form and flip-flop at the last minute can only seem pretty underwhelming after *all that*.

    Don't get me wrong, I get that Kylo is supposed to be "more complex", which is fine, but I don't really buy into his journey. I don't find him complex in the sense he has many well-defined facets to his personality, rather he is just confusing and I don't know what I'm supposed to be thinking his motives and feelings are from one scene to the next.

    But that might just be me... ;)
     
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  20. Maximillian

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    I really like this write up, and I'm a big fan of the Kylo Ren character but I agree with you on all points. I think he is supposed to be conflicted and 'torn apart' Infact the reason the confrontation between him and Han in TFA works so well is that they both do seem to be expressing their own real opinions on the matter. which makes his Killing of Han so confusing and awful, tragic and awful. I don't think his arc was handled well in TLJ it seemed like he as well as every other character in the move (excluding luke) essentially flip-flopped back and forth on their morals/goals in the movie but ended up in exactly the same place emotionally as they were at the end of TFA which is why I think TLJ was weak character development wise. I would have preferred during the Rey/Kylo join me scene that either she did join him or he her, even if they defected to type in IX it still would have been a something, where as TLJ had a lot of tension and that just got swept out in like a 'twist' moment.

    Anyway yes, Kylo Ren isn't readily available for the audience to understand despite significant onscreen emotional outbursts. He is not being given a clear trajectory and either this is all intentional or somewhere along the way the writers could not figure out how to keep the 'Will be redeemed or wont he?' thing fresh. at this point it seems that nothing would be strong enough to turn him back to the light, if not for his father and mother then who? its very confusing how to take him, he is combat wise the underdog to Rey still, as he has never bested her in combat, which makes him a hard villain to fear, he seems more a threat to himself than to our Heroes. and he also doesn't seem like he wants redeeming so we can't really root for his redemption by his own hand. its very odd.
    I find his character the most interesting to watch on screen and the only character I still care about from the new bunch...but that said, yeah all your points are spot on.

    Vader only needed a tiny bit of light on his side to return, he just needed his child to see the man he could be in order to decide to do the right thing. Kylo Ren had his whole family, and some force sensitive stranger all believing that he might return at one point or another and yet he still can't decide to be either dark or light in any effective way. He's not even a good villain at this point, he's too compromised and obviously does seem to care for his mother and Rey, so hes not even detached...really strange place to be at with an antagonist.
     
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