MSW Leaks so far: A hint of what's to come for the KoR?

Hmm, an "off topic" rating in a discussion about Kylo Ren's possible redemption... for explaining how I felt regarding Kylo Ren's possible redemption...?

Just to clarify, I completely agree with DjChubakka's post that I quoted - Ren being redeemed does not preclude Rey having an interesting arc in Episode IX and vice versa.
However, my point was that Kylo Ren has already been faced with so many things which should have inspired a change in him, were it within him to change, I find it hard to see what Rey could possibly do to inspire that change in Episode IX in a way that makes sense after all that has come before...

 

My thinking is that it's what is discovered in TROS that could inform both of them, and change their course. Kylo to me seems twisted because of Snoke... he's been manipulated the same way Anakin was. He killed Snoke out of some need to kill his father figures. Luke, Han and Snoke. He saw them as being in his way, from preventing the path the thinks he needs to follow. Rey thought she had got through to him. But I think maybe much of his conflict is the things he gave up to fulfill what he thinks his destiny is, he didn't really want to give up, but he saw no other way.

Luke probably had the most realistic assessment of Kylo, and thinks he's lost to the dark side but he couldn't bring himself to kill him. Han out of guilt did what he promised he'd do for Leia. Rey reached out to him because of their connection and her empathy. I don't perceive Kylo has seeing he had the option of going back. You can be conflicted about your choices, but you can also feel that you had no choice. He thought killing Han would solve his conflict. He didn't see not killing Han as an option.

Rey is going to be a different Rey, time has passed she has gained knowledge and force powers. I suspect the Kylo has be marauding around the galaxxy trying to impose his First Order's will on it. But Kylo has been always working on assumptions that are wrong, no one has showed him that yet.

 

One of the weirdest parts of this trilogy and something that just makes Kylo Ren a bad main antagonsit is that he seems to like Rey. at every opportunity he reaches out a hand to her, literally, like once in TFA with the training offer, and twice in TLJ with the hut scene and the aftermath of Snokes death.

These things mean he is not a legitimate threat. Because he actually seems more likely to save her than kill her. its just like, a weird main antagonist to have coz he doesn't hate her.

Also he's not a registered threat to her because in all their conflicts she comes out on top, making Kylo Ren the underdog which is so so strange for a main antagonist.

Rey's at the moment seems complete, she found belonging with her new Rebel family and her Jedi role. this makes her a bad protagonist.

Feels like Kylo's arc is more important than Reys in TROS. I mean, emotionally how can Rey's arc even matter in TROS? the whole thing for me hinges on Kylo Ren at this point. Which for my money makes him at least a duel-protagonist. if not the actual protagonist of TROS. He's the only character with anywhere to go be it up or down.

The only thing that would shake this is if there was some reveal about Rey's heritage, and at this point it would need to be a bad one. because making her a skywalker, solo or a Kenobi at this point is unnecessary for her to progress as a character. she already has a rebel family and she is already a jedi. The only thing that would work would be if Sidious was behind her conception. which would put her and Anakin (and by extension his descendent Kylo Ren) in the same boat and it would shake her purpose. I see no other legitimate obstacle for her to tackle other than the idea that she was created/conceived from a dark place and potentially with a dark purpose.

Uh, the KOR will feature as a legitimate threat to Rey where Kylo Ren can't. because while he feels an affinity with her, they will see her as a threat and try to kill her. This will be their role I think...thats my thought.

 

My take on where the character arcs for both Kylo and Rey should go actually have something to do with what Rian Johnson said about what was "the most difficult thing" they "could hear in that moment." For Rey, during TLJ , it was learning that her parents were "nobody." So what is it now that Rey or Kylo could hear that would change their entire perception of the conflict and complete their character arcs in TRoS?

So, having finally accepted that outcome and then losing all of her mentors or people she hoped were her family (Han is dead, Luke is now "gone," and we know Leia will have to soon be gone), I think the most challenging thing for Rey would be to learn that they really were her family. Now she will never have that family relationship that her whole life has been dedicated to discovering and finding.

While I agree that a dark origin would create sufficient conflict for Rey to overcome, I would respectfully disagree that the family issue could no longer significantly shake her. In fact, I still think the family reveal (if your dark origin theory is not correct) is necessary for her character progression. I think the discovery of who her family really is and the regret that she had the opportunity to reconcile with them, but lost it, would be one of the most challenging things she could face... but the most challenging?

Discovering that the only remnant of her biological family that is left is... Kylo Ren. Much like Luke discovering his father is the one of the two most evil people in the galaxy. Except Luke still had his sister, whereas Rey arguably will no one else (unless Leia also survives). Rey doesn't have anyone but Kylo, who she must kill, stop or redeem, despite her prior failures.

I also think this is the most logical progression for Kylo, too. What would be the most challenging thing for him to hear? While tthe truth of the nature of his grandfather's redemption is perhaps near the top of the list, I think the most challenging thing for him to discover at this stage, after her has made every effort to sever his ties to his father, his uncle/Jedi mentor, and now inevitably his mother, I think his discovery that Rey is his only family left would both challenge him and provide the necessary spark for his redemption.

 

I don't see how her being incorporated into the Rebellion makes her story finished, Luke was at the beginning for ESB. Luke's parentage wasn't even a real issue in IV, almost just his backstory. I think Rey's story is her discovery of the force and her growth as a Jedi... her backstory or history needs to be explored, but I'm not sure why she needs some dark source, she's never been conflicted about her course within the force, she tried to deny it but she's never been tempted by the dark side, not sure why a "dark" family history would matter on her path.

Why would Kylo become the main protagonist? Did Darth Vader in the OT? Not sure why Rey's path, because it's different than Luke's, means that her story has no where to go? She's discovered the force, been trained in the force... now we get to see her become more than she could of imagined. Her role, her powers will have to stop Kylo trying to kill everyone she knows and loves. I'm not convinced that Kylo is the main antagonist in TROS.

Also, that last thing we really got from Rey from a character development scene in TLJ was her 'Nobody" scene where she denies Kylo's pleas to join her. There's ALOT to unpack from that scene that hasn't been touched. We don't know what that did to her, what her perception of Kylo is. I see Rey as always having hope and empathy but also determination to do what's right. Much like Leia or Padme.

 

I think the reason I gravitate towards the dark origin for Rey is because her character is perfect. She never comes out worse off from anything and learning that her family were Skywalkers/Solos/Kenobi's while harrowing for her would still leave her in the goody-two-shoes camp. and I feel that via their acceptance of her they are already her family in many ways. Like Leia is alive at the start of this film, finding out leia was her mother/aunt/whatever and then losing leia would be horrible for Rey but at her core she'd have actaully got what she was looking for, a place, a family who are the 'goodies'. So even though traumatic for the character it would essentially be a non-reveal in terms of who she is, she knows shes this ray of light, this paragon of the light side. so for me it just would be meaningless especailly as yeah if Luke was her relative, she already mourned him as a mentor, learning he was her dad would mean what? she'd morn him more? its not very dynamic in my opinion, same goes for Han. She lost him once and cryed learning that was her actual father would be a slap to the face in terms of cosmic justice but she's already moved beyond these people in my opinion and they accepted her as one of their own.

As for being incorporated into the rebellion being the end of her arc...its precisely because she is different from Luke that to me this feels like a conclusion of her personal quest.

Luke's quest in ANH related to him seeking adventure, feeling there was more out there to do than staying on a dust ball planet. He got this wish and it turned out he was more intrinsically entwined in the big space saga than he ever emagined or wanted. His own father was the most feared man in the galaxy.

Rey's drive was different, she wanted to stay on the dust bowl and await her family. MAz explained her beloning was ahead of her and as far as I can tell between the Solos, Skywalker, Finn and the resistance she has found her place. so to me her personal quest is ended and nothing new has arisen to drive her.

Luke on the other hand, once finding out the villain was his father was determined to save his father and go against the lessons Obi Wan and Yoda had imparted, they believed his destiny was to kill Vader. He saw an alternative, hence he has an question going into ROTJ, what will be the outcome of him facing Vader?

For me Rey just doesn't feel like she has anything personal that she is fighting for. its like, the rebels are her family and shes as complete as anyone else in the Rebellion in that sense. not special in her drive, only in her powers.

Leia on the other hand does have something that needs addressing in TROS, her son and what is to become of him. She to me has The most motivation of any character going into TROS to enact change. I don't see why Rey's involvement in the stakes of TROS is any more than Finns, Poes, Roses...you know. Where as there was a reason it was Luke and not Han who had to be the one to face Vader. its wasn't because he was the most powerful it was because it was personal.

This would work for Rey if it was revealed she was a Solo/Skywalker as Kylo would become her Cousin/Brother. This would make for a neat re-tread of ROTJ because we wouldn't know if she would want to kill Ren for killing her parents/family or save him because he was her family. However I just feel like it isn't as dynamic or as all encompassing as the idea that Sidious has something to do with her origins as well as Anakins.

That she like the Skywalkers was designed for a dark purpose, to perpetuate war within the galaxy and execute Sidious's grand plans for the dark side.
I just like that, it feels conclusive as a 9 part story to me. and then it would become about Rey and Kylo Ren proving sidious wrong.
It's totally bias as to my own interests in the story. I just feel Rey could do with something to make her question her powers and her place because both those things have never really been shaken for her and I want to root for her therefore I want her to overcome doubts, not simply enact righteous anger/justice.

This is now very off topic and I won't mention this again here. I'll chat about it in a skywalker thread somewhere.

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Don’t forget Luke lost a hand. Rey could simply be a clone of Luke, made from his hand. Someone found the light saber so they probably found the hand too. Cloning is very real in SW. would also explain her attachment to the Kyber in that Saber.

This would make Rey a Skywalker and nobody as Parents and related to Luke and Kylo all at same time.

Rey Nobody is simply a clone of Luke clears up a lot of problems.

 

Reading all the very interesting posts above about the characters of Kylo and Rey make me realise why Reylo has been so popular as a narrative and theory for so long. If you think of Kylo as an antagonist you will become disappointed, because Kylo is not a traditionally threatening villain like Vader. Kylo fits better the profile of a tragic or Byronic hero, like Anakin in the sequels. He is like the hero of romances in the 19th century, dark, immoral and mysterious, but with sporadic redeeming qualities spotted all over the stories.


Kylo also displays elements of the villain but with a different slant. He is a fundamentalist, a brainwashed terrorist. It is his unpredictability what induces horror, shame, hatred and fear. Kylo is not supposed to be as readable as Vader. It’s a more nuanced rendering of a hero/ villain.


Let’s not forget either that Kylo is a wannabe, a fraud. He’s like the sweaty and scared guy with the explosive vest on, not like the leader orchestrating the attacks.


As for Rey, I think her trajectory in 9 will be defined by her connection to Kylo and her growing attachment to Leia, who I believe will be her parent figure in 9. Something will rock the waters in her “perfect” new family though, maybe some conflict with Finn, or some new information about her past...


I think what a lot of people are experiencing about the storytelling in this trilogy is a lack of trust, which is derived, I think, from knowing perhaps a bit too much about the material and the creating powers behind it. Saying that, I would concede that TLJ did not accomplish its mission as a middle chapter as well as I would have desired.

 

My take on Kylo's arc:

I think he will be redeemed. And it will come from a realisation that he isn't the chosen one, that Vader had nothing to finish and that his whole world view is backwards. This will all tie back into the "creation" of the chosen one, Anakin Skywalker and the quest the heroes are allegedly going on in the movie.

This trilogy has been based upon a power based somewhere in the unknown regions that took over the remnants of the Empire and attacked the galaxy. Talk of a "source of the Dark Side" that Palpatine was seeking out is developed in the supporting canon. We had a new leader in Snoke who came out of nowhere and has yet, inexplicably, been given any kind of backstory.

I believe that the one character that can tie all this together is Plagueis. And here is my summary of the story:

Darth Plagueis, along with his apprentice Palpatine, brought about the creation of Anakin Skywalker, through their unnatural meddling with the Force. As with Rey being a reaction to Kylo Ren, Anakin was a reaction to the imbalance created by the Sith. At the same time, Plagueis realised that only Palpatine was in the position to take over the galaxy. That's why he had taken him on as his apprentice. But in order for his plans to work, Plagueis had to disappear and so he allowed his apprentice to murder him. Or at least, believe he had. But Plagueis survived. He cheated death. He then resided in the unknown regions, rebuilding his power and overseeing the fall of the Jedi from afar. In time, he would return, destroy Palpatine and rule himself. But he had to wait for all his enemies to be destroyed - the Sith and the Jedi, for until then he was vulnerable.

He likely planned to return sooner, but the Jedi survived, Anakin had children and Palpatine was well protected. So he remained hidden and watch events play out. Throughout this time, Palpatine sensed a power in the unknown regions. And he sought it out himself. Compiling information in a quest to seek out this power which he believed could grant him unlimited power - eternal life...perhaps control of the very fabric of the Force itself. Alas, Palpatine was destroyed by the chosen one before he could enact this. The defeat of the Dark Side in the galaxy, weakened Plagueis somewhat and he had to wait before he could emerge once again.

Knowing Luke was untouchable and incorruptible, Plagueis turned to the son of Han and Leia and from afar, and used his disciple Snoke (who he had saved from death), to twist the young boys mind. Luke had already made Kylo believe he was important, a new chosen one and Plagueis/Snoke played on that, making him believe he was the successor to Vader. Someone who would bring balance and end the cycle of war and corruption in the galaxy. But he was a pawn, there to help Plagueis acquire unlimited power.

We then witness the events of the ST and now come The Rise of the Skywalker, our heroes are seeking a way of defeating the FO. And they discover something - the source of the FO's strength, where Snoke emerged from - a power in the Unknown Regions that is behind everything that is taking place. The heroes learn of Palpatine's own quest and seek out his holocrons/data left on the sunken Death Star II. This leads them, eventually, to Plagueis in the Unknown Regions.

I believe Rey and Kylo will do battle on this world - which will be a mysterious Force planet, similar to Mortis, the planet where The Ones resided in the Clone Wars cartoons. Plagueis will be trapped on this world, unable to leave it until the Dark Side has conquered the light and his enemies are destroyed. The heroes have to defeat the FO and get to Plagueis before all is lost. I believe it will be at this point, during a battle in this otherworldly environment, that Kylo Ren will come to his senses. He will discover the truth behind Plagueis. He will see that he, Kylo, has always been a pawn and that the destiny of the Skywalker was never to serve the Dark Side. He will realise that he and the FO must fall so Plagueis will become vulnerable.

*Flicks hyperdrive switch*

My fantasy, is that we will be witnessing Kylo fight Rey and then as he comes to his senses and perhaps falls on his sword or lets Rey strike him down (with Han Solo returning, forgiving his son and helping ease his journey to the netherworld of the Force), the great Jedi legends will return to take down Plagueis. Anakin, Yoda, Luke and Ben - with the chosen one finally finishing what he was born to do - bring balance.

The Rise of the Skywalker...Anakin's birth, his death and rebirth and the completion of his destiny.

Fin.

 

It is obvious now that Palpatine is what is going to tie all three trilogies together. I don’t think they are bringing Plagueis into the story as the big bad. He may be mentioned again as a vehicle to explain how Palpatine is still around by stating again that Palpatine learned how to escape death from Plagueis. However I think that would be the most we will get if anything at all

 

I find interesting that the screenplay was at one time 260 pages long. I'm sure it has gone through rewrites, but that would equate to a movie over 4 hours. I doubt it'll be 3 hours long, and Abrams has said he isn't into 'long' movies, but I wonder with the Avengers movie being that long and it's setting the box office on fire if we'll see our first 3 hour Star Wars movie...

 

I think it will get close. TLJ was 2:33..I can see this in the 2:45-2:50 range no problem there is certainly enough footage for that. Endgame wrapped a decade or so worth of films. This is less films but a bulidup of 40 years.

 

New info from MSW

https://makingstarwars.net/2019/05/...gle-world-in-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker/

 

Here’s one from a few days back that I’m not sure has been posted anywhere.

https://makingstarwars.net/2019/04/...in-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-plays-out/

--- Double Post Merged, May 4, 2019, Original Post Date: May 4, 2019 ---

This movie does seem like it is going to be interesting and different. I’m really looking forward to seeing how this movie plays out.

 

So when MSW first leaked the whole "Palpatine possesses Kylo in the final battle but Ben Solo fights back against him", the concept of it reminded me of this:

I'm sure the execution will be much different, but still...figured this was worth a laugh for my fellow Cantina members lol

 

Why would someone at Bad Robot or Lucasfilm risk their job by giving all this info to MSW? Hell, one of 'em even leaked bits of the ENDING (assuming this is all legit).

 

These.

I mean, putting aside the debate about whether or not it should be Rey’s task or not to care of Kylo’s redemption,
the main problem is that she doesn’t have a personal, inner... problem, “dragon” to teme.
A personal “shadow” to integrate, to use Jung’s words.

The way TLJ handled not only the parental reveal, but her reaction to that and the movie finale as well... left pretty much nothing personal for her to overcome.

When I say that Kylo, not Rey is the real protagonist of the ST, I think about it.

It’s not even a double protagonists story. It’s about him.

J.J. and Terrio must find something to make Rey’s arc interesting in her own rights.

 

Kylo Ren is Rey's shadow. That is why we have the constant yin/yang imagery in the ST and the mantra about dual protagonists. In the heroine's journey, integrating the masculine/animus is the culmination of the cycle, so we should get to that milestone in TRoS.

 

No he is not.
And he’s not in Jungian terms.
Vader is the shadow of Luke.
Because Luke’s fear was that he may become like his father.
That they were the same.

In a heroine journey the heroine must integrate her feminine self as well...
The point being that just because of sexism, a woman tends to copy men behavior.
Not to mention that Rey’s journey so far is not that of an heroine journey, but pretty much that of S-hero.

In any case, Rey has not shadow because she doesn’t fear... herselve.
Like Anakin did, like Luke did.
Everything is external, for her. Especially now that she accepted the truth about her parents.
And that’s the problem of her character arc.