1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

HUMOR Murderers, traitors and thieves of Star Wars universe (SW Personality test included)

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Greywalker, Jul 11, 2017.

  1. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Posts:
    1,677
    Likes Received:
    12,108
    Trophy Points:
    90,617
    Credits:
    4,577
    Ratings:
    +13,606 / 22 / -14
    I licked it so its mine!! The original thread can be found here (originally created before balance and the gray jedi were a thing). Slightly edited cuz no one here knows Broda. And yeah....I am that Arcana....and Kylo Ren...and Dark Cutie. I think i might have a multiple personality disorder :p
    Come and play @FN-3263827;) i want your take on this:

    A smugglers den conviniently located in Jabba's Hutt: A perfect place to discuss the moral ambiguity of characters and factions within Star Wars universe. Come in, grab drinks and argue away. I will read all you write here [​IMG]

    Possible topics, in no perticular order, include but are not limited to:

    Did Han shot first? What is a scoundrel?

    Who is right? Jedi? Sith? Both? None?

    Lando's betrayal? Warranted or not? Or a moral cowardice?

    Count Dooku-a political idealist or a murderer?

    Is Qui-Gon Jinn a rebel or a fool?

    POV of FO vs. POV of the Resistance Who is right and who is wrong? Their guilt and responsibility!

    Is the destruction of Death Star mark I, Death Star Mark II and Death Star Mark III aka The Starkiller Base excusable or not? If so, what about Matt the radar technician on-board? Is he innocent?
    And were there Space Monkeys and Space Horses living in SKB forest?

    Leia's bikini outfit? Outrageous or sexy?

    Ambiguity of Luke? Does he know the darkside? He did kiss his sister, but is it enough?

    The morality of the interogation scene? Should have Ren unshackle Rey during their mental fight?

    Are the Jedi trully better than presuit Anakin?

    Was Padme worse than Jar Jar? As in a female role-model for girls.

    Accountability when killing a droid? Are droids slaves or sentient life forms?

    Bobba and Jango Fett - misunderstood mercenaries or cruel body hunters?

    What makes a hero hero in The force Awakens?

    The responsibility of Jar Jar Binks for the rise of the empire?

    Was Darth Plagueis a Wise Sith Lord? Isn't that an oximoron in itself?

    Who is MORE redeemable Kylo Ren or Darth Vader?

    The enigma of one "Larry". Who is he and how shall his existence influence the eternal battle between light and darkness?




    Pick one or more or bring in a new point to discuss and talk away my friends [​IMG]


    Oh.. the test:
    If you wanna find out who most like you are in SW universe solve this personality test:
    https://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test

    Once you do, compare your (code) result to this table in order to apply it to Star Wars Universe:

    [​IMG]

    It's a fun thing to do and the results might surprise you...

    For example, I got ENFP-A what makes me a Qui-Gon of this world....
    Thing I like because I truly am a Gray Dark Jedi :D
     
  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,324
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,830
    Ratings:
    +157,644 / 65 / -7
    i'll always be palpatine or yoda according to this scale.
    this time i was yoda.
    more often i'm palpatine.
    i don't like either character, frankly, but that's neither here nor there ~ hahaha

    for questions, i pick: "Who is MORE redeemable Kylo Ren or Darth Vader?"

    neither is "more" redeemable.
    redemption does not concern itself with subjective measures of the "depth" of guilt.
    this is basically like asking: which 20 oz. glass holds more water. : D
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  3. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2017
    Posts:
    360
    Likes Received:
    351
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    660
    Ratings:
    +603 / 4 / -0
    "Who is more redeemable..."

    Do you mean "whose redemption is more likely to be 'accepted'/'approved of' bt the GA"?
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Posts:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    10,393
    Trophy Points:
    88,767
    Credits:
    6,559
    Ratings:
    +11,498 / 20 / -1
    I always thought Lando was justified in his "betrayal". He was the administrator of a large mining colony, he had to look out for his people. If you had to choose between thousands of citizens or an old drinking buddy from years ago, the responsible thing is to save the citizens. However when appeasing the Empire is like feeding an alligator, eventually you'll run out of food and you'll be eaten. Eventually he realized that and evacuated the city, and tried to save Han. To me it's not a big deal what he did, concidering the circumstances.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Wise Wise x 1
  5. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Posts:
    1,677
    Likes Received:
    12,108
    Trophy Points:
    90,617
    Credits:
    4,577
    Ratings:
    +13,606 / 22 / -14
    By the hahahas i am asuming you are taking this jokingly, lol...so i just gotta say the first thing that came to my mind. Does that mean that palps, grand master of the Sith and yoda, grand master of the Jedi are similar in a way? :p

    Damn...you picked the most talked about question...i really wanted your take on Fetts :D i just dint get the love they get considering they kinda sell their moral values for money, being bounty hunters and all...jango even sold his body :D .can it really be only cuz of their gadgets that people like them?

    About redeemability....i think some things are beyond forgiveness. The question there was about how objectively (killing padawans for instance) Vader did worse crimes as a villain that Kylo did. But all it took for his redemption was killing Palps. Subjectively (killing Han) people hold Kylo in greater contempt, i think. So i do believe that depth of guilt is colored by personal impact a crime has.

    Also. Vader was redeemed. Do you agree?

    In a manner of speaking. But I am interested in getting individual opinions as to why.

    This is so true. Even today, when i watch ESB i get such conflicting thoughts on the matter. When i watch it as a pasive observer i feel he acted from his own interest. Pleasing the empire by doing them a favor, getting revenge on Han for taking his ship that i feel still hurts his ego based on their initial exchange, getting Han out of the picture to try to score with Leia while justifying it to everyone else with his apparaent selflessness of protecting his people that live and work in the cloud city.
    Then if i watch as a "Han" (i never really related to luke in ot, Han i liked the most), then Lando looks like the biggest ratting roach on the face if tge earth that deserved to be crushed by Vader and i am so angry by his weakling ways. Cuz i think...if people would just stand up for other people on occasion and not worry about their own asses we would live in a much better place.
    But...if I try to put myself in his position, then I find myself even excusing his behaviour. He was being responsible...
    But it always bugs me...what is the right choice and did he really coose the lesser evil since in the end it was shown there is no 'deals' with his empire.

    I get the story would be much more boring without these personal moral ambiguities and it is a tool for driving charachter development. I just cringe sometimes :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,324
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,830
    Ratings:
    +157,644 / 65 / -7
    i was actually quite serious.
    and yeah, i actually think Yoda and Palpatine have similarities, but they are also polarities.
    they are their own yin-yan.

    nope.

    nope.

    yep. : D
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  7. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Posts:
    1,677
    Likes Received:
    12,108
    Trophy Points:
    90,617
    Credits:
    4,577
    Ratings:
    +13,606 / 22 / -14
    Hahaha....i can see how you can see that. I would not call them yin and yang tho. They are more polar opposites that ar so far apart that they dont see how they mimic eachother.
    Yin and yang complete eachother since they belong to the same unity, domain.

    Oh yeah? Not even pedophilia? Curious.

    Hmmm. I'll disagree here. Killing inocent defenseless children is objectively worse crime than killing grown up villagers that up to a moment ago shot and killed many of soldiers of the opposing army. And choking to unconsciousness and subsequently to the death a pregnant woman is subjectively far worse than gentle interrogation of a female prisoner (when comparred to Poe's). And yet Darth Vader is redeemed and forgiven.

    Exactly!
    :)
     
  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,324
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,830
    Ratings:
    +157,644 / 65 / -7
    but you do say they mimic each other, which means they share, in some capacity similar--even if mirror--qualities. yoda and palps do complete each other in my mind. and now they're dead. hahahaha

    all measures of guilt are subjective. you think killing kids is worse than killing villagers.
    i think there's no point in comparing because it depends on motive and circumstance and the person doing it and their capacity/self awareness.

    again: redemption does not concern itself with subjective measures of the "depth" of guilt.
    it's an internal process that does not require external recognition.
    Vader did not redeem himself by killing Palpatine except maybe in the eyes of some audience members.
    Vader redeemed himself by twigging to the wrongness of his alignment, by loving his son literally to his death, and by acknowledging his own capacity for sufficient good to overcome the evil that he had done. how we feel about Vader doesn't actually matter.
    Leia doesn't forgive him, regardless. does that make him any less redeemed? no. of course not.

    i might personally think pedophilia is the worst crime ever.
    considering my feelings for Snoke, that very well could be true.
    but what i think is completely and utterly irrelevant.
    redemption does not rely on my personal compassion or forgiveness.
    that's just not how it works.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  9. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2017
    Posts:
    360
    Likes Received:
    351
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    660
    Ratings:
    +603 / 4 / -0
    @GreyLo

    Re: Who is more redeemable..,

    I think you made some great points on this subject.

    For me, how "redeemable" a character is =/= how easy or difficult it is to rehabilitate them in the eyes of the audience.

    To me, "redemption" = "renouncing evil." A character can be redeemed but NOT fully rehabilitated to the audience. There are certain things you can have a character do that will make the audience loathe a character to one degree or another. Major bonus points if you have them do it onscreen.

    For example - the makers of Netflix's House of Cards immediately established Kevin Spacey's character as a vile human being by showing him i the act of strangling a dog. There's no rehabilitation from that, even if the character changes his evil ways.

    Now, Vader was redeemed. But he had to die. Would we really have bought into his redemption, and Luke's love for him, had Vader not sacrificed his own life for that final heroic act?

    Kylo will be redeemed. We know this because the narrative directly told us this when Kylo said "I feel it again. The pull to the light."

    And then we're shown Kylo murdering his father, a beloved character, who was trying to help his son. Murdered in cold blood. Without even a "Nooo what have I done?!" afterwards.

    When I saw that, I thought, "Yeap, Kylo ain't surviving the ST."

    Because a director who intends to rehabilitate a villain generally doesn't have the villain do THAT onscreen.

    I'm not so much saying that Kylo did X and now must die. More like, I'm saying that JJ showing Kylo do X is a sure sign that LFL does not intend for Kylo to survive the ST, despite him getting a redemption arc. Just like the dialogue "I feel it again. The pull to the light" is a surefire indicator that Kylo will be redeemed.

    (On a similar note - note that in Disney's Beauty and the Beast, Beast starts off kinda nasty but he doesn't kill or torture or otherwise do horrible things beyond turning away an old begger woman and locking up Belle's father. There isn't too much Beast needs to be forgiven for. *For good reason*- so that the audience can find the romance acceptable. Kylo's situation is....very VERY different.)
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,324
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,830
    Ratings:
    +157,644 / 65 / -7
    not an actual fact.
    what you're saying there's no rehabbing him in your eyes, coupled with the fact that there's no struggle within the character to change, amend, or atone.

    absolutely. his death isn't required for his redemption.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Posts:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    10,393
    Trophy Points:
    88,767
    Credits:
    6,559
    Ratings:
    +11,498 / 20 / -1
    I see Kylo Ren as being unredeemable. He killed Han Solo, the most beloved character in the OT, at least. Vader was redeemed in the eyes of the audience in 1983. See in the OT vader didn't kill that many people. He killed Ben Kenobi, and a few pilots. Well actually Kenobi killed himself. Tarkin destroyed Alderaan. In TESB, Vader only killed Imperial officers. ROTJ, Vader only killed Palps.
    It wasn't until the prequels did the audience see him kill kids and sandpeople, or whatever, by that time the audience already forgave him 25 years earlier. But Kylo can still redeem himself, but it would take something big, like saving Luke or Rey, in a big way.
     
    #11 Finn_McCool, Jul 13, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
  12. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2017
    Posts:
    360
    Likes Received:
    351
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    660
    Ratings:
    +603 / 4 / -0
    Um, I mean it demonstrates intent by the director not to try to rehabilitate the character.

    Please give me an example or two of a villain who has murdered an innocent father and has survived the story. I mean, in a better state than, say, Oedipus. And don't say Tyrion, because that's an R-rated drama of extreme moral ambiguity and Tywin was NOT innocent by any stretch of the imagination.

    [quote



    [​IMG][/QUOTE]

    Nope. Not nearly proportionate enough a response. Not with patricide.

    Especially considering that minutes later he's screaming "Han Solo can't save you now!"

    This is Star Wars. This is an epic tale told in broadstrokes. And that was a viscerally horrendous, shocking act. You really wanna hit home the immediate regret? Gotta do better than that, sorry.

    I think JJ/Kasden knew exactly what they were doing:

    To create someone new that Star Wars fans would hate and fear, Abrams says they made the hard choice to kill off someone who definitely made that type of mark, someone we love: a particular scoundrel who also proved he was more heroic than anyone might have guessed back when we first met him.

    Star Wars had the greatest villain in cinema history. So, how you bring a new villain into that world is a very tricky thing,” Abrams told the crowd. “We knew we needed to do something f—king bold. The only reason why Kylo Ren has any hope of being a worthy successor is because we lose one of the most beloved characters.”

    http://ew.com/article/2015/12/21/jj-abrams-kylo-ren-shocking-act-star-wars-force-awakens/
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 13, 2017 ---
    @FN-3263827
    @GreyLo

    Sorry if I came off as pissy in my posts. I didn't mean to sound all "DIE KYLO DIE!!" Though I probably did :p

    My adamance is more re: what I believe LFL's intentions are re the character's ultimate fate. (I heard somewhere, too, that AD insisted on knowing Kylo's story arc before signing on, though I can't confirm that without a source, of course.)

    If I'm wrong and they find a way to rehabilitate Kylo without killing him off in a believable way, awesome. I just want the ending to make sense. I just happen to see certain narrative elements as good predictors of what the storyteller has planned.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 4
  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,324
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,830
    Ratings:
    +157,644 / 65 / -7

    my point is that you are being totally relativist.
    "not proportionate enough of a response"?
    from my perspective this is a much more telling moment than Vader's (almost comical) nooooooooooooo! hahaha

    and if people can't name patricidal redemptives off the tip of the tongue, i'd argue all the more reason Star Wars might give us that character now.
    aren't some people clamoring for something new? isn't this exactly not a repeat of Vader's arc? Lucasfilm is AWESOME (maybe). : D

    i do really appreciate your literary approach to the discussion (looking for clues in the narrative, in storytelling tropes, etc.), so i'm not trying to be flippant or bulldozery here. i'm merely suggesting that there is no "obvious" answer to the question of what should become of Kylo Ren, nor is there an exact formula, nor a laundry list of requirements, etc.

    his fate is completely open at this point and good storytelling should challenge us: our expectations, our assumptions.

    i could tell you, too, what Adam Driver has said about his character's fate (if you haven't seen him on Larry King), and then we could argue about that interpretation too ~ hahaha

    p.s. i am being purposely vague about the Larry King thing because very potential SPOILERS.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  14. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2017
    Posts:
    360
    Likes Received:
    351
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    660
    Ratings:
    +603 / 4 / -0
    Preface: I can be a loud-mouthed idiot on the subject of Kylo and sound super-beligerant than go wtf is wrong with you jojo 10 min later. It's like Jekyl and Hyde

    SEE WHAT YOU DO TO ME KYLO???!!!

    I'm going off what I understand of GA psychology. You apparently are more optamistic than I am!

    ('cause yeah, I know "not proportionate enough" isn't exactly an objective standard :p That was my EMPHASIS talking!)

    I've been trying to think of an example for months, no luck.

    In classic tales/mythology, patricide is considered one of the horrible sins one can commit. Probably explains the lack of examples.

    But honestly - if you DO happen to find an example, I'd like to know it. Because if it's been done before, in an analagous context (like, not an R-rated movie/show aimed at adults, for example), that certainly would make me revise my own prediction.

    Only in that they start out dark, are eventually redeemed and (presumably) die in a aelf sacrifice? Otherwise, much different upbringing, circumstances, cause of downfall, paths to redemption, etc. I mean, Rey getting a hero's journey doesn't make her a Luke clone, right?

    Thanks :) I do strongly believe that will happen to Kylo, but I do understand why others believe - for extremely legit reasons - why Kylo will survive. I will not be disappointed if he survives in a way where I feel that was an appropriate end for him, and I want to like the ST ending SO BAD, no matter what it is XD

    I do think, though, at this point, that no ending would result in my feeling warmer feelings toward him than if he sacrifices himself. I actually tear up picturing it x_X; I certainly wouldn't be "thank goodness he's gone"!!

    Makes me think of that TLJ teaser poster - menacing Luke, sad-puppy Kylo! Now THAT is LFL bleepin' with us ;)


    Message me? :D

    Haha I tend to be less exacting when I parse verbal interview answers XD;; I'm so new to speculating in large part 'cause I so rarely think that anything can be predicted/deduced with any confidence :p
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,324
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,830
    Ratings:
    +157,644 / 65 / -7
    i totally get it. discussing Kylo Ren puts me right on the edge ~ i feel like Leia: i could burn down the galaxy to save this kid ~ hahaha
    but i do try to force myself to look at his character with objectivity, a literary mindset, and, yes, optimism and compassion--which i believe are two crucial tenets of Star Wars.

    so here's something else to think about: it's not Ren's reaction that matters as much in that moment as it is Han's. Han forgives his son (and, if you include the interpretation from the junior novel, asks his forgiveness as well). we know Ren Ben's messed up in the head. he's off kilter and will be for at least another film at least. but Han has the clarity of everything before him: his love of his son, his sacrifice of self, his hope of his own murderer's redemption.

    to me, Han telegraphs much more what may be coming than Ren does. and don't forget: if Ren dies in the Dark, our OT heroes all failed him.
    can you imagine that as the legacy for our OT Star Wars--from a galactic fantasy brushed in broad strokes?

    i'll pm you about Larry King. hahahaha

    : D
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Wise Wise x 1
  16. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2017
    Posts:
    360
    Likes Received:
    351
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    660
    Ratings:
    +603 / 4 / -0
    Good point! That definitely was Han's own redemption :)

    And I'm sure Kylo will come back to the light. Which is ultimately the most important thing. Vader died, but in a way it was a good ending for him.

    Of the various possible endings for a redeemed Kylo...I know self-sacrifice isn't a "good" ending for Kylo fans, but it fits in with an overally happy ending better than prison or exile or removal of Force powers or prosecution for war crimes, etc. (Though as always, they might surprise me!) And it has solid precedent, both in SW and other stories.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  17. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,324
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,830
    Ratings:
    +157,644 / 65 / -7
    hahaha ~ i will take exile well over death here.
    Ben has a lot to give the galaxy; why waste his potential?
    he can atone quietly in his own way.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  18. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2017
    Posts:
    360
    Likes Received:
    351
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    660
    Ratings:
    +603 / 4 / -0
    Depends a ton, imo, on how much redemption changes him. He seems really damaged and emotionally stunted, apart from the dark sider-ness.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Posts:
    1,677
    Likes Received:
    12,108
    Trophy Points:
    90,617
    Credits:
    4,577
    Ratings:
    +13,606 / 22 / -14
    @JoJoPenelli our devil's advocate ( :p ) @FN-3263827 is like the biggest optimist i have ever seen. She simply insists all people are good...like...a total yang of Machavelli :D
    Damn...i need to read all this and and stil abwer other threads and im so beat...think im gonna sleep now...zzzzzzz

    P.S.what happened on karry king? Put it in spoiler tags :)
     
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  20. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2017
    Posts:
    360
    Likes Received:
    351
    Trophy Points:
    1,637
    Credits:
    660
    Ratings:
    +603 / 4 / -0
    (dual)

    Btw I don't want to punch Kylo. Just JJ. A little. In a way that wouldn't get my charged with assault (emperor) Somehow.
     
    • Like Like x 2
Loading...

Share This Page