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My issue with Tarkin (not CGI)

Discussion in 'Rogue One' started by GotTheSilver, Dec 19, 2016.

  1. JeffG.

    JeffG. Ewok Hunter
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    In the beginning of this video the Commander states that the DS isn't fully operational. But at the end, Tarkin states that " by the time this station is operational". Is this a contradiction or just a pov?

     
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  2. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    Although the Death Star was completed during Rogue One, I don't think the superlaser was fully operational because it was only just installed and never used on full power until it fired on Alderaan in ANH.
    ;)
     
    #22 SKB, Dec 19, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
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  3. Rayjefury

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    I don't want to get too "wonkish" here (because this is Star Wars and there is a certain amount of disbelief that we are supposed to be suspending anyway) but.

    If could be that the Death Star is going down Star Wars' version of Project Management, meaning their is something called IOC and FOC (these are DOD terms)
    IOC = Initial Operational Capability
    FOC = Final Operational Capability

    I can't remember but I think it was @Travcon that mentioned that there are tests that are run on systems even after their initial capabilities are established. If that were so, it's consistent with what @Amanaman noted (and I believe he is correct also) that the DS seemed to have Planet Killing capability in Rogue One that was not utilized at Tarkin's direction. Basically you're both right. The DS was operational, but it hadn't reached it's Final Operational Capability based on what is suggested in ANH. If we extend the DOD Project Management paradigm, they would have had to have done all sorts of tests, not just for the weapons, but operating systems. We don't know if they had any software or hardware problems inbetween R1 and ANH and for a project of this size, odds are that they did.

    Anyway, the movies themselves are canon, so. I don't think it can be argued that those in charge did not believe the DS was fully operational until ANH, and I also don't think it can be argued that the DS didn't have planet killing capability in R1. So basically, you're both right... and I suppose both wrong (but I tend to focus on the positive, so you're both right).
     
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  4. PrincessLeiaCB3

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    If we read the previous line from Tarkin you will see that is left quite open, perhaps. Maybe a "fully" adjective was needed in that case, but Tarkin saying that they needed to show the full power of the space station meets the previous treatment of the Death Star shooting with one reactor to destroy Jedha City and Scarif. However, for me this is basically nitpicking that does not affect entirely the point of both movies.

    n89w5revpwj3pb6e1yd7.jpg

    Thanks @Rayjefury for stating such a wise opinion.

    Please guys, always when posting remember wise Obi-Wan Kenobi's words:

    "The truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view."

    There is no perfect movie and there will be always material for nitpicking and material to question, especially on these movies that were done back in the day and these ones that are being made. There will be always something that the makers might miss, but at the end of the day we need to take a holistic approach and see the movie as a whole. At least for me it worked.

    BUT the main point here is that we respect each other's opinions and if we cannot see eye to eye, at least agree to disagree and move along.

    "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."
     
    #24 PrincessLeiaCB3, Dec 19, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
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  5. FreddieMac

    FreddieMac Clone Commander

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    Seems this is not complicated, during RO it seemed Vader and Emperor still wanted to keep the DS secret; so did Tarkin. Tarkin fired the second time to kill his rival and make the attempt to keep the DS plans from leaving the surface. Even once the plans got out, there was still a chance to get them back. After they interrogate Leia in ANH and could not get anything out of her, I think decision was to do a demonstration for the entire galaxy of the DS's power. Remember, the emperor just disbanded the senate and basically made the empire a feudal state. He would have had to show some terrible power to keep systems in line. Also, I think after RO incident, the empire ray shielded the exhaust port because they did their own analysis and kept it secret. There was no mention of these shields in the message from Gaylin to his daughter, just of the exhaust port. The Flag officers would have not known of the threat to the DS and did their own attach analysis when the rebels attacked.
     
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  6. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    At least its in character, Tarkin always was an overconfident kind of chap.
     
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  7. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Tarkin might have done it on purpose to make krennic look bad because it was more his project initially than tarkin tarkn.
     
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  8. GotTheSilver

    GotTheSilver Rebel Official

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    Wow! I did not intend for this thread to become a debate on continuity. I really don't worry about these things much. These movies were made nearly 40 years apart!!! I expect some things to be inconsistent. Lucas was not expecting R1 to be made when he wrote ANH, thus I am sure he did not worry about the details of the wording Tarkin used.

    Thanks everyone for their perspectives on my issue with Tarkin. Some good points have been made. I will need to watch the movie again, because at this point I can't remember exactly what Tarkin knew when. Did he know the rebels were trying to steal the plans to the Death Star when he set the DS on course for Scarif? Did he know there was a weakness in the design that the rebels knew about? Or are these things we are filling in because we know about them? I will keep all of this in mind next time I watch the movie.

    Still, I understand wanting to kill Krennic and stop the rebels, but it just seems that destroying Scarif and all of the information that was stored there is an awfully high price to pay for that.
     
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  9. C3-Steve-O

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    The Death Star isn't some mass-produced car that rolled off an assembly line. It's a prototype. And any prototype is going to be tested rigorously before it's considered fully operational.
     
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  10. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    Yes and that's why it was tested on Jedha and then again on the Imperial Base. Had Tarkin not known the base was fully operational, he wouldn't have told Krennic not to use it's full power. I'm sure everyone here noticed that Krennic wanted to completely obliterate Jedah but Tarkin told him not to do it. It would really be bad writting if Tarkin didn't even know what he was talking about.
     
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  11. Bosc

    Bosc Force Attuned

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    Operational can also mean two things: fully functioning, and fully utilized. We see it's fully functional in R1, but it's not fully utilized until the Senate is disbanded and it's used on Alderaan.
     
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  12. BigBoss

    BigBoss Rebel Trooper

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    my interpretation is that Krennic would have copped all the blame, as the Imperial Army was shown as to be very selfish, manipulative and lots of in-fighting for promotions and survival of the fittest, etc.
    Tarkin at this point has more power than Vader at his disposal, he is surely ranked #2 in the Imperial Triumvirate at this stage. all it would take is Tarkin to point his finger at Scarif and say Krennic forced my hand, he needed to be eliminated as well as the remaining Rebels... i honestly think Palpatine would have a little cackle to himself after this explanation, with Vader probably knowing better, but focused on his current mission (in ANH), which inevitably leads to him fulfilling his goal in becoming the Emperor's hand, essentially - Vader doesnt need to play games like the others - even Tarkin.
     
  13. porkozone

    porkozone Rebel General

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    Two bits of info from outside the movies that relate to this, and for me made the movie more impactful:

    1. In Catalyst, it is mentioned that someone (the Emperor, I believe) wants to use the DS to make a statement by destroying a single world. He know that the threat of using the DS is more important than using it often. So testing it in a small scale builds to that eventual public show of force. Jedha was risky because it was less under Imperial control, which is why they had to create a story for it's destruction, and why Vader was unhappy. Scarriff on the other hand was an Imperial base, and as such would create less "buzz" about it's destruction, and easier to hide publicly.
    2. A scene from Star Wars Rebels sets up Tarkin's use of the DS against his own base. at the end of Season One, Tarkin is willing to destroy the main communication tower for the planet, to prevent Rebel propaganda from getting beyond the planet. The Rebels are caught off guard because they did not assume he would go to those lengths to stop them. On Scarify he does basically the same scorched earth approach - the collateral damage of destroying an Imperial base, along with tons of archives is worth it to him to contain the breach.

    These are not needed for the movie to work, but I like how they show consistency.
     
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  14. patriot8813

    patriot8813 Rebel Official

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    I've seen the movie three times and this is what I took.

    Yes, Tarkin knew the rebels were stealing the plans for the Death Star. When Tarkin is notified of the attack he asks if the original plans of the death star are on that planet, thinking they were, when replied with yes he quickly orders the move to hyperspace. I don't think he believed there was a weakness because of how over confident he appears in both Rogue one and A New Hope with regards to the death star. Nothing is hinted at regarding if he knew about a weakness. Still, one would think if the Rebels were to get those plans its possible they could find one.

    As regards to Scarif, I think its about killing Krennic, killing the Rebels and potentially stopping them from getting the plans, and eliminating the archive since the Rebel Alliance now knows of its existence therefore preventing any future leaks.
     
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  15. cawatrooper

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    Regardin Tarkin working "too quickly"-

    When preparing the DS to fire, Tarkin remarks that they would focus on the base while Vader takes on the Rebel fleet. Seems to me like they'd sorted out their differences about the Death Star's use and were working in tandem. We don't need every single bureaucratic discussion to be laid out in the film. That's how you get the prequels. :p
     
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  16. daRinze

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    My issue is about the word "operational". What does it mean ? From what I've read in this thread, it always means a "technical ability".
    Only one persone noticed the very real power of a superweapon: fear.

    On Earth, there have been only 2 nuclear assaults in mankind's history: the first occured on Hiroshima, the second on Nagasaki.
    Since these days, all the global world's peace only rests on the atomic fear these 2 shots generated.

    Is the atomic bomb functionnal ? that means the bomb explodes when pressing the red button. This occurred just twice (I'm not including the tests).
    Is the atomic weapon operationnal ? that does mean the fear it inspires is enough to guarantee peace: and that works fine. Since that 08.06.1945, no country was needed to nuclear-fire another in order to be respected : the fear, alone, is enough. "We have the bomb!" "OK, we don't provoque you".

    So, to me, the verypower of the DS is not its ability to destroy a planet (as Vader says), but it is the fear it inspires (as Tarkin says).
    Jedha was a technical firing test.
    On Scariff, the DS was used due to a fight context.
    But, the very first success of the DS is Alderaan's destruction, because it is totally free. That means, the fear generated by this event will be even more greater, and the power of the DS (= the fear) even worse.
     
    #36 daRinze, Jan 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  17. SegNerd

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    The Death Star was supposed to be a secret. It's possible that different people were intentionally given conflicting/false information about how finished it was. With the Death Star II, the Emperor based his entire strategy on tricking the Rebellion into thinking it wasn't ready yet, even though it was.

    I always thought of Tarkin of being more like a "villain who loves his giant space gun" rather than a "bureaucrat who wants to appease Vader." It's not really that unusual for villains in Star Wars to do surprising (maybe even crazy) things to try to advance their own agendas, regardless of the overall plan.
     
  18. Lt. Hija

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    Ouch...I find that hard to argue with. Here is a list of all the (other) original dialogue addressing the subject:

    TAGGI Until this battle station is fully
    operational we are vulnerable.
    The
    Rebel Alliance is too well equipped.
    They're more dangerous than you
    realize
    .

    (I'm not exactly sure what he was talking about, i.e. did he suggest the defense mechanisms didn't work, yet?)

    TARKIN This bickering is pointless. Lord
    Vader will provide us with the
    location of the Rebel fortress by
    the time this station is operational.

    We will then crush the Rebellion
    with one swift stroke.

    (Seemed to suggest the Death Star wasn't operational, yet)

    IMPERIAL OFFICER (Motti) The final check-out is complete. All
    systems are operational.
    What course
    shall we set?


    (Seemed to suggest they just became operational and capable to move)

    Back to the OP, I can only speculate that despite his debatable actions in RO Tarkin's previous record with the Emperor had otherwise been spotless, so perhaps the Emperor might have been "forgiving" in his particular case.

    However, Tarkin should be glad that he perished with the Death Star. Had he abandoned the station with his Star Destroyer, the Emperor would have had him probably dismembered or worse.

     
    #38 Lt. Hija, Jan 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
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  19. Rebel on Toprawa

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    Actually Vader said to Krennic, "There is no death star. The senate has been informed that Jedha was destroyed in a mining disaster." So after the death star fired the first time no one really knew anything of it.
     
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