New concept of the Force.

Nobody sees himself as a bad guy. Satan is the protagonist of his own story.

Actually, in my opinion it seems that Satan has the moral high ground over God.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 11, 2017, Original Post Date: Jun 11, 2017 ---

I always liked Kenobi's explanation of the Force from A New Hope. He gives the impression that the Force is a mystical energy accessible to everyone.

 

Not quite sure how this addresses my point but I agree with in in finding Lucifer's point of view more interesting, or at least the view espoused by the character of Lucifer in Paradise Lost. Certainly Milton wrote him to be charismatic and convincing if only for the wrong reasons.

 

I know it's off topic, but one can easily argue Lucifer is the good guy. What was his crime, really? Refusing to bow down to a dictator? Refusing to worship Him? Refusing to stroke His ego? Daring to take from His glory? Daring to give Adam and Eve something as evil as knowledge? God sounds like Kim Jong Un.

 

It is off topic. There are numerous replies from various traditions with Christianity to the thoughts you raise. Seeing this is the SW forums maybe we should keep things related to GFFA rather than opinions on Milton or the Bible.

 

Yup. Stuff gets complicated when project will and intention to an all present, all powerful thing...

 

Totally agree with you.

 

I think if a new view on balance is given, then it adds value to the PT. The Jedi Philosophy and order seemed draconian and a bit ignorant in the grand scheme of things, leading to their downfall. However, if you completely do away with the Jedi, surely the value of what occurred in the OT is lessened? It's a tough one, unless a reinvigorated order can be formed which caters for some forms of attachment, as well as allowing older apprentices to join, as Luke and Rey have.

 

I like how the concept of the Force has been expanding rather than evolving, in my opinion.

In ANH, we hear Kenobi and Vader talking about the Force for two different reasons: while Kenobi uses the basic description of what is the Force, Vader practically despises the boast about the Death Star and regards it minimal compared with the Force. So we have two powerful Force-users yielding the Force in high esteem, though for different reasons and motives. Kenobi sees the Force as what binds all living things together, whereas his former apprentice sees it as an instrument to destroy and yield power.

Then we meet Yoda in TESB and we learn more about the Dark Side, but it is not until the PT where we find out to be strong in the Force means not that an individual or a group of FS individuals cannot be fooled to see the true machinations behind the scenes a powerful Sith Lord was conducting almost under their noses. I like also how TCW explores other manifestations of use of the Force and dimensions of the same (Nightsisters, Mortis arc) and then we have the ST, where we do not have yet all the details on how the Force is acting on Rey and why.

There is something I read on the Rogue One novelisation that it is quite interesting since it gives us a glimpse on the different perspectives on the Force around the galaxy, which in some way makes sense in our reality, with all the different faiths that look upon a divinity that for some, it could be the same but with a different name:

SUPPLEMENTAL DATA: PILGRIMS OF JEDHA

What is the Force of Others? To ask this, you must ask one question and a thousand.
To a cultist of the Huiyui-Tni, you must ask, “What is the exhalation of the true, amphibious god?” To a Jedi, you must ask, “What is it that binds and defines all life?” To a child of the Esoteric Pulsar, you must ask, “Show me the secret pages of the Book of Stars.” To a faithless man, you must ask, “What power enables prophecy and sorcery in a world controlled by logic and law?”
These thousand questions will garner a thousand answers, all pointing toward the same truth.
Now ask, “Where is the Force of Others?” and one answer becomes inevitable: the kind and cold moon of Jedha. For a thousand faiths see truth in Jedha’s mysteries, no matter that their stories differ; no matter that not one history of the Temple of the Kyber can explain each brick in its foundation, or that our legends entwine and part in paradox.
I ask you to believe that Jedha is a nexus for faith, life, and the Force of Others in all their forms. If the Force can be embodied in a vision or a living creature, why not a place? Or why not an idea? Why can pilgrimage not be Jedha, and Jedha not be the Force?
I ask you to believe this not because it is true, but because it is a beginning.
Imagine these things and you must conclude that every visit to Jedha is a pilgrimage—that every visit to Jedha is an expression of faith and a search for truth, intended or not. When a thief comes to Jedha to prey upon the vendors in the markets, she does so in accordance with her nature; she will trick and lie and steal, and if she does not trick or lie or steal then her faith and nature are altogether different.
You say, “Why a thief? Why such a cynical conjecture?” To which I say, “Do you not wonder why the Guardians of the Whills protect their temple so? Why the Jedi carry their cruel swords of light, even here?” It is because our pilgrimages are in accordance with our faiths, and faith can bring terrible conflict. A thief is but the kindest example I can offer.
Jedha does not give answers to those who do not know what answers they seek. Jedha does not bring into harmony those things that cannot harmonize. Jedha does not express faith and the Force through its pilgrims; pilgrims express faith and the Force through Jedha.
Pilgrims express faith and the Force through life.
For what is life but pilgrimage? And what is life but conflict?
There have been worlds and tyrants who have tried to prevent their people from journeying to Jedha. But such a thing cannot be stopped. Living beings will always find their way to the kind and cold moon, as they always have. Through the Force and Jedha, they will act as they must, for good and ill.
And we will know them by their actions there.

 

Unfortunately for you, that's already happened. It was made clear in ANH that the force and luck were one and the same per Obi-Wan. The prequels, Rogue One, The Clone Wars, and Rebels have all continued with, and expanded upon that philosophy. Take Anakin for example, you can't really tell me that force doesn't have a conscience if it created a messiah figure for both the dark and the light.

The force is energy. Energy has laws, the force has laws. Raw energy is timeless, the force exists outside of time and space. The light seeks to mitigate its effect on the force by forming a symbiotic bond with it, the dark aims to impose its will upon the force and control it.

Why do you think disasters occur all the time? Because human control is nothing but a myth, a fantasy we delude ourselves into believing, in order to make us feel better. Literally everything is pre-programmed, you cannot change it no matter how hard you try. GE/ GM is not re-programming either, there are already pre-programmed responses in existence for whatever changes you make. You still don't have any real control.

So, basically what I'm saying is beings in the SWU have just as much control over their life as we do. It does not diminish the story in any way when you take all this into context.

 

I agree with most of this. but I'm not sure that the dark aims to impose its will upon the force and control it. I kinda think 'dark side' users are using the same overall 'force' but its their selfish use of it that in turn corrupts their bodies. as if they are playing with fire essentially and getting burned.
I don't think the dark side is a separate force, just a separate application of the same force.

For instance Anakin force pushing droids vs him choking Padme, its still his use of the force but one of them is a corruption of good because Anakin is acting in self interest and from a dark emotional place. It gets super woolly around these areas as what the force itself deems as natural & corruption is very vague.

I'm hoping this is adressed a bit in TLJ. like, if you used the force to push someone, but they slid over a ledge and fell to their death...is that evil? would that lead to the dark side? or is it more about the user's will and intentions? Kylo Ren's stopping a blaster bolt mid-air didn't seem evil, it wasn't a violent act, yet we know his actions are from a place of dis-harmony, so how does that work in regards to his use of the force?

 

The balance is between the Living Force and the Cosmic Force. Neither is Light or Dark, Good or Evil.

@Maximillian is right motives are what define things as Light or Dark. Both act with the Living Force to take action but the dark side acts in selfishness. When left unchecked this effects the balance. It is a metaphorical look at how selfishness destroys any system. Greed breaks economies, consumption destroys environments, selfishness destroys relationships.

 

My take on balance:
Balance not about good and evil or light and dark, it's being in tune with one's self and the world around you. You work with and accept all aspects of yourself and the universe, but don't let any of them dominate you. Balance is what Qui-Gon was getting at here:

Keep your awareness on your present state and what's happening now. Be aware of the future, but don't let it dominate the present. This is all in contrast with what the PT Jedi did when they ignored their emotions; it put them in constant conflict with themselves and they couldn't hear the will of the Force above the resulting din.
In terms of the Force, balance is its natural ebb and flow. It's brought into imbalance when someone tries to force their will on it and control the direction of the flows or even create or stop them. The Jedi weren't forcing their will on it, but weren't working with it either.

 

As someone who has taught religious studies for a living. These statements are nuanced differences not overt opposition. Qui-Gon admonishes him about his anxieties (fears). Not to worry about the future. Obi-Wan shoots back but Yoda said I should be mindful of the future. So seeing the tension of these 2 views Qui-Gon resolves the tension not at the expense of the moment. Its either/or its both/and. Both the repercussions of actions what will be and the here and now are significant. But focus on the future fretting about things. Distract from being mindful of the moment. Yoda would agree with Qui-Gon why because the future is always moving its difficult to see.

All that to say. Qui-Gon's opposition with the council stem from moments like his outburst when the would not train Anakin. Apparently not the first as Obi-wan points out. "You could be on the council." Qui-Gon even responds to Obi-Wan you are a wiser man than I.

 

I was using the quote to illustrate what was meant by balance, not to state Qui-Gon disagreed with Yoda in that particular instance.

 

Awkward! It seems I need to look closer so as to not respond to nuanced positions as if the are in overt opposition.

 

@McDiarmid: Another outstanding post - WELL DONE!! I think you have a lot of good points here. I guess(?hope?) we'll see how right you are as Ep's VIII and IX unfold.

 

Please also refer to:

http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016...-a-discussion-on-the-nature-of-the-force.html

and maybe some posts of interest might be also found here:

https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....-force-to-a-new-level.9923/page-2#post-309555