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No Such Thing As Sith

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by Kibble, Sep 16, 2014.

  1. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    I grew up with all six Star Wars movies. The Phantom Menace came out when I was a baby, and for all the years I knew Star Wars, I knew the six all at once. When I was a kid, I didn't care, I liked them all for the pretty lightsabers. But now I do care, and now I regret not having seen the Original Trilogy when it was new, without the Prequels.

    So a lot of the time I try to imagine what somebody might have thought of things that happened in the Original Trilogy, without that base of prequel "context". One thing that became immediately apparent is that it looks like the entire concept of the Sith wasn't present, and was invented for The Phantom Menace. They certainly don't ever say "Sith" in the Original Trilogy (they also never say "ewok"). To somebody back in 1977, Darth Vader was just a Jedi knight turned bad. Ben Kenobi even tells Luke (and the audience) exactly that. That's why he used the Force and a lightsaber. Then we see the Emperor, and he has these awesome powers like no other Jedi, like the lightning. He an enigmatic evil mastermind who knows the dark side of the Force, but is there any reason to suspect that he is part of a secret cult of dark-side Force users? He even call's Luke's lightsaber "a Jedi weapon". And so far all the (three) people who use lightsabers, have in fact been Jedi knights.

    But suddenly if you practice the dark side of the Force, your name is Darth, you wear black, and you have a red lightsaber. Luke wore black in Return of the Jedi.

    There are other topics I would love to discuss about the artists intentions of the Original Trilogy (the people who made it really knew what they were doing :3), but to avoid bogging down the post I'll stick with this. What do you guys think?
     
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  2. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Speaking purely from on screen content, I’d agree with you. But as a child growing up in the 80’s, everyone knew Vader’s title was Lord of the Sith. I think it may have initially come from the original novelization. Someone can correct me on that if I’m wrong. But much like Palpatine’s name, sith was what the “cool kids” used to show off their knowledge of star wars back in its heyday.

    I for one was very excited when it was picked up and used as part of on screen canon. You know, it validated my child hood and everything.
     
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  3. TheFettMan

    TheFettMan Rebel Official

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    The "Sith" are somewhat confusing....
    They are sometimes considered a alien race, other times it's just two.
    Wookiepedia states a former "Sith" set up the "Rule of 2"(mentor & Palawan).
    When the sub-ordinate or patawan feels ready they can over take the mentor removing him/her from power.
    The "Sith" reportedly ruled the entire galaxy for a 1000 years too. The Jedi Order formed(by a little known alien race that isn't really explained yet) to remove the Sith from power.

    It's all very complex & convoluted. The "Star Wars" galaxy is 1000s of years old. The events of the original trilogy are just a small portion of it.
     
  4. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    Yeah, Vader was sometimes called Lord of the Sith in the Novelizations of the OT. But never on screen. But I do remember that validating feeling you're talking about when they started saying Sith a lot....but then they started saying it way too much. And I didn't like every bad guy in the whole galaxy having the same first name as Vader. Darth kind of looses its luster after its used to name 25 characters.
     
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  5. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Agreed. The sith turned out quite different than I had imagined them back then. But as with many aspects of the prequels, we were given a window into details that we had never had before (I find some of that exposure good and some bad). With concepts like the sith, clarity can remove the mystery which makes them frightening. If the sith return in the ST, I would hope/think that air of mystery will return with them so that they are more threatening intimidating as they once were when it was just Lord Vader and his emperor.
     
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  6. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    How did you imagine them back then?

    I agree, but I hope the Sith do not return in the ST, and we get a more original villain~
     
  7. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Personally, I always imagined them as some sort of dark cabaal. A sort of Illuminati of the Star Wars universe. Not necessarily all dark jedi (as I referred to them back then) but with cult like practices and rituals tied up in the dark side of the force. The emperor was at the head of this secret society with Vader his right hand and enforcer. They were a larger group of politicians, dark jedi, and influential people that had used the dark side to worm their way into positions of power until the galactic republic could be easily handed over to one of their own. And with all those pieces in place the empire rose to power and couldn’t be overthrown due to its tentacles being into every aspect of the society.

    Not very original. But hey, it’s what my 10 year old mind came up with.
     
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  8. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Rebelscum

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    Well George wasn't really concerned about what anyone else was doing. IIRC it wasn't until TPM that it was totally official that the Emperor's name was Palpatine and that he was a Sith. It introduced the rule of 2 and that Darth was a Sith title. It needed some explanation as to why Anakin got a new name so obviously Darth had to become a title.

    George himself only created a few Darths though obviously there was a line of them for a thousand years. So outside of Vader, Sidious, Maul, Tyrannus, Plagueis and Bane I don't know how many he named.

    I don't see why it loses anything really.

    As for the Jedi distinction the point is that the Lightsaber is a Jedi weapon that the Sith use. The Jedi came first and the Sith are an offshoot of them. So the weapons and such originated as Jedi origins.
     
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  9. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    Good points. one thing though seems to be that the Sith name is like a secret identity. No one knew Dooku was "Tyranus" or that Palpatine was "Sidious" (until they were revealled). One point is that if your taking a new Sith name it could be anything. George didn't have to name everyone Darth...Oh well. Back in the day I assumed Anakin had just changed his name to something way cooler sounding. But now that I see that Palpatine used a secret identity I was thinking maybe that's why they get a different name. Anyway, I'm rambling but this makes me wonder...because Palpatine was telling everyone that Jedi are evil, it makes sense that Anakin would take on a new identity. Wouldn't be good for business if everyone knew the Emperor's right hand man was a Jedi.
     
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  10. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    I always thought it was more of a ceremonial title. A symbolic gesture of giving themselves over to the dark side. Something that separates Sith from fallen/corrupted Jedi. By taking that name, you renounce your previous identity and become a servant of evil.
     
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  11. TheFettMan

    TheFettMan Rebel Official

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    But my question is; Are the Sith evil? Or are they just ruthless & without ethics like the Jedi?
    If the canon storyline of a older pre-Disney(before 2012) graphic novel detailing how an ancient alien race came into the galaxy & started to seek out beings to train as Jedi Knights. They would follow strict codes & repel the Sith during the period of the "Old Republic".
     
  12. Shawshank

    Shawshank Rebel General

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    Kibs greatly dislikes anything that stems from the prequels.

    That's fine, whatever. George never knew that Star Wars would do anything (this the peculiar way that Obi-Wan refers to him as "Darth" in ANH). He changed some things here and there and it all works.

    Also, while it's not "canon," it does make sense for the title to stand for DARklordofthesiTH. Not to mention, the new name symbolizes a rebirth into the darkside and a shedding of one's former identity (you know, like how Luke...in the beloved OT, says "I know you were once Anakin Skywalker" and Vader responds "That name means nothing to me.")

    But I suppose we can just pick and choose what we want to believe and understand.
     
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  13. Shawshank

    Shawshank Rebel General

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    Wait...what?
     
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  14. Echo-07

    Echo-07 Rebel Official

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    I can see your point. There apparently was an alien species of "pure Sith" and then eventually the cult of Dark Force wielders called the Sith which somehow was derived from the alien species.
     
  15. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    For this thread I meant it to be about the actual intentions of the artists who created the movies, not like people's opinions about what's best. I might be wrong, and everybody who were making Star Wars had a notion of the existence of the Sith and stuff. But that's why its a discussion and not just me telling everybody what I think it should be. I do dislike stuff from the Prequels though.

    That's like kind of dumb though D:

    I'm pretty sure that's not canon anymore. (I am getting the impression that lots of people here aren't aware of the reboot thing that happened)
     
  16. Voxx

    Voxx Jedi Hero of Legend

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    The word Sith is also in A New Hope's script and was used in speaking in the original draft that was used for THE STAR WARS comic by Dark Horse. But it was Knights of the Sith rather than Sith lords and Darth Vader's name was first name "Darth" last name "Vader" and he wasn't a Sith at all, rather than a figurehead much like Tarkin in the finished movie.
     
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  17. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    As I recall from many, many years ago, Darth Vader was known in the novels, the trading cards, the "Story of..." albums and the comics as "Dark Lord of the Sith." But never in the movies themselves. As Max mentions, I too always thought that the Sith were some sort of secret cult, and not merely what Vader and the Emperor called themselves. I always figured that whatever the Sith were, we'd see a bunch of them in the prequels.

    While I understand the point behind the so-called "Rule of Two", it's always seemed to me like it kind of stemmed from Lucas' reluctance to have the Jedi face off against living enemies in the PT - which was one of the reasons he said he went with a droid army as the enemy. You can chop up droids with a lightsaber till the giant ticks come home, and nobody's going to say boo about it. But he was afraid that slicing up actual people (y'know, like he had no problem doing during the sail barge battle in ROTJ?) was apparently going to cross some sort of line. I know I'd sure have rather seen a bunch of Jedi facing off against a bunch of Sith than the Jedi vs. still more droids that we got in Episode II.
     
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  18. Voxx

    Voxx Jedi Hero of Legend

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    It would have probably gotten an R rating due to simialr movies at the time getting those ratings, ie Gladiator, The Patriot, Braveheart, etc for seeing actual people getting dismembered.
     
  19. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    No reason for people to be getting dismembered like that, though. Again, look at the sail barge battle in ROTJ. Luke takes out at least a dozen skiff guards with his lightsaber, and I don't see a single dismemberment in there.
     
  20. Voxx

    Voxx Jedi Hero of Legend

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    Would that be due to lack of visual effects technology to successfully showing dismemberment or because Lucas/the directive team not care to include it?
     
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