SPOILER Obi-Wan Kenobi Ep. 1-2 Discussion

Examples of what exactly? Of a Jedi training a young person, but not with the sole desire for them becoming a Jedi? Yeah, I can think of one big one at least: The Last Jedi. Luke agrees to teach Rey, but not so she can become a Jedi. So she can understand the fault and folly of the Jedi. Because that’s what was appropriate for THAT story.

Adjacently, we have similar concepts that have risen recently.

In the Jedi: Fallen Order game (which is in continuity), and I guess I’ll wrap this part in spoilers.

Spoiler

The plot revolves around surviving Jedi searching for a list of young Force sensitive individuals with the intention of training them as Jedi. But the narrative concludes with them deciding the kids would all be better off living their lives and not getting drawn into the fight.

Similar, though not the same. Because that’s what was appropriate for THAT story.

Season 2 of The Mandalorian presented us with Ahsoka refusing to train Grogu out of fear of what may happen, but then concludes with Luke taking him on as his student anyway. Continuing into BOBF where Luke allows Grogu to step away from that training since his heart was invested elsewhere. Similar, though not the same. Because that’s what was appropriate for THAT story.

In the third season of Star Wars Rebels, the Jedi character Kanan instructs the non-Force user Sabine in the use of a lightsaber, using Jedi concepts. It’s a Jedi, taking on a young student, training them in aspects of the Jedi, but not for any intention of them actually becoming a Jedi. Because that’s what was appropriate for THAT story.

It’s the concept of mentorship and how it’s expressed within the story that actually matters. What does that mean to the respective mentor? What does it mean to the respective mentee? What is that relationship? How are they affected? How are they not? That’s what a writer wants to explore. Not precedence and procedures and rules and orthodoxy. That’s no fun. The meal is in each particular dynamic. It’s uniqueness. It’s complexity. That’s why we tell stories.

 

That's not true. He aims to give Rey Jedi lessons (against his own judgement) thinking she will see for herself why the Jedi need to end and discourage her. Obi Wan wants to train Luke. He is beseeching Owen to allow it.

What is the story for which you have concluded that Kenobi wanting to train Luke not to be a Jedi is appropriate? Where's the precedent of Jedi seeking out younglings in order to train them to have a normal life?

And training someone in the Jedi arts who is not going to be a Jedi is not the same as training someone to not be a Jedi. Was Katan trying to teach Sabine that the time of the Jedi is over?

They included a montage of scenes depicting Obi Wan promising to train Anakin to be a Jedi and then Anakin's son. So precedent is clearly important to the writers. If a character is changing their policy of training younglings to be Jedi, then precedent is always important. Obi Wan Kenobi is not a standalone. It's really episode 3.5. Precedent is extremely important.


This series is blatantly not trying to establish a new definition or conception of what Obi Wan means by training someone. We are halfway through. It would have been explicated in the show by now. Not left for people to formulate in order to neutralise a (shock horror) apparent contradiction.


I have an open mind to possibilities. But not so open that I let the established facts fall out of it. We are heading into perverse territory if we are staying that Obi Wan had no intent to train Luke as a Jedi. Especially if it's purely to deny the possibility that Kenobi could be saying two contradictory things. What's so scary about accepting that this contradiction is indicative of his troubled mindset? Why is it necessary to imagine that there is an as yet untold scenario and motivation that means these things are not contradictory if it's just to establish that Kenobi is troubled. The resistance to accept that these things contradict each other, in the context of what we know about Jedi, and from Ben and Owen's discussions, not to mention the fact we know what happens in episode IV is baffling to me.

 

You asked for an example of my claim and I gave you one. “What do Jedi train younglings to be?” Unless you want to quibble over what a “youngling” is. Luke, a Jedi, trained Rey. But not to be a Jedi. That wasn’t his goal because that wasn’t the story being told. The distinct needs, wants, and desires of this pair are what inform that relationship. Not the expectations of how a conventional master/apprentice dynamic ‘should’ work.

Look, man, what the hell are we doing here? Seriously. As I’ve said over and over and over again, I’m suggesting an alternate perspective to your interpretation.

*What if* Obi-Wan doesn’t actually want to train Luke with the intent of him becoming a Jedi who goes out and fights for peace and justice and such? *What if* he only wants to train him so he can better keep himself safe from those who would do him harm? Since that’s all Obi-Wan ever actually agreed to do: Watch over him. Keep him safe. Keep him hidden.

Wouldn’t that be pretty in line with where the Obi-Wan character is at in this point of his journey as someone who isn’t himself practicing the Jedi code and attempting to stay hidden? Is it really that far out and irrational a notion to even entertain the possibility? Even as a thought experiment? Even as a *what if* for THIS specific story?

Can we please be done with this now? I’m running out of new and creative ways to rephrase the same exact thought over and over again. I’m not sure I have the vocabulary for one more circuit around this circular discussion.

 

Your first response to me was to say that it's only a contradiction because I'm interpreting things the wrong way and it's unreasonable of to assume the context when obi wan says he wants to train training Luke.

 

If that’s the impression my response gave you then I apologize. But, respectfully, that’s not what I wrote. “I’d say the only real contradiction here lays with interpretation.” Which is to say: we don’t actually know for sure what he meant. And so, if there’s more than one way to read that line, then it’s not necessarily a contradiction. No one is right. No one is wrong. It’s open to debate. You don’t agree and that’s fine.

 

I have now cheated and watched the spoilers/leaks. All I will say is up to now they are fairly accurate up to now.

 

I think the conflict is real because he is a human in a tight spot.

His mission is to watch over Luke and train him but his real world scenario is they are being hunted to death, he is clearly afraid to use the force at all, and cannot pop up on the Empire's radar.

He will reconcile this eventually but Owen will still refuse and we know how that all plays out.

 

That's what I said.

He made a promise after Padme died to watch over Luke. In the OT he believes the boy is their last hope. His attitude towards Anakin's offspring is lopsided. Not for any sinister reasons. It's just the position he was left in when Bail adopted Leia. He's attached to Luke. Every time he sees Luke on Tatooine he's reminded of the boy racer he promised to train and to help fulfil his destiny, as it was prophesied. And until recently in this series had thought he'd killed on Mustafar. Luke presents a chance for Obi-Wan to one day redeem himself.

But he is also, like Luke later became, pessimistic about the Jedi's circumstances and its chances of redeeming itself. It's almost as if he's compartmentalising his and the Jedi's failure. Being harsh on one hand (the Jedi order, which he would have to lead if it were to persevere) . But still hopeful it can be put right and that the prophecy may yet be fulfilled. (training Luke)

It is interesting watching Ben and Leia's relationship knowing that over ten years from now he will still only consider Luke to be the last hope for the Jedi.

 

So far, the first episode remains my favorite. I'd rate it 8/10, whereas the second is a 7/10 and the third is the worst at 6/10. I'm sensing a Moon Knight pattern here....

 

Okay, Corran Horn returning to canon was not on my Kenobi bingo card, but I am here for it!

Slight potential spoilers based on Michael Stackpole’s Twitter comments:

Spoiler

Apparently at least Corran’s mom might show up again before the series end

 

I wondered about that shot when I saw - like how does Obi-Wan have a memory of a moment he wasn't there for?

But perhaps it isn't a memory - not one of Obi-Wan's anyway. It's a Force dream; a 'vision' from the past - a 'Force memory' if you like.

I think what it is doing is presenting us with a way of clearing up a long-standing continuity issue.

If Obi-Wan can have a memory of a person and a face from a moment he wasn't part of, then presumably so can any Force sensitive person.

Like, say, a child having a memory of a mother they had never met.

I know that's not a new idea, but up until now it's only been the head-canon 'fix' for how Leia remembers her real mother. This 'dream' is the show showing us how she can have that memory.

But also...

Leia is Force sensitive, and in the presence of Obi-Wan as his thoughts turn to her mother, it's possible she's picked-up on that memory and made it her own. That's how she thinks she can remember her real mother in ROTJ.